Reflecting on my relationship to this forum...

[Natasha Tori Maru]

2 hours ago, integral said:

So we had similar experiences, I dated two BPD women, the main focus was the mature person as to compensate for the lack of maturity in the other.

It looks like we had a role reversal.

Did you feel a loss of sexual desire towards them the more emotional they became?

I'm asking this because the typical pattern is women will lose sexual attraction the more childish they think he is. They don't want to babysit a toddler.

I'm asking because you're atypical, and I want to know how many "norms" don't apply to you.

I think what sets me apart in terms of atypical is that I have a very good understanding/integration/ability to flip flop between masculine and feminine polarities. Most of the issues with the men I had experience with BPD manifested as extreme anger and then lucid shame spirals in a loop. The most difficult aspect of this sort of personality type is assuring them that connection and acceptance is still present even when there is disagreement. Any perceived 'difference' in personality is seen as a rejection. Most of the issue is an unclear sense of self and boundaries - often leading sufferers to absorb their partners likes and dislikes in an attempt to connect. 

So when the sufferer was 'triggered' I would have to hold space and remain calm and hold boundaries until the main emotional pain had run its course. Doing this put me into a masculine frame and would de-energise my sexuality. Once connection was reassured I can let it all go - and this surrender would put me back into a feminine frame of expression which would bring back my desire for love, sex and connection. I do not think I view BPD as 'childish' in behaviour - I view it as a suffering individual in extreme pain. I try not to judge as there is so much stigma around personality disorders - especially cluster b.

The ability to let things go is what puts me back into a feminine frame. I do not hold onto feelings needlessly. I express them in a healthy manner, and then I am done. I feel like a lot of women get trapped in their emotions and cannot surrender and then let go. And they can use their emotions and feelings to try to validate a point. But I think men and women do this equally, it just seems to me that it manifests in different ways. Men tend to get angry and use rationality to bypass emotion. Which can appear more logical, but is based in emotions and feelings. Women tend to express them all in larger bursts and variety. Maybe my experience with BPD men has shown me how both sexes do this?

In the end the desire to win any sort of debate is just the aversion to the feeling of humiliation. Which makes me think perhaps this could be something @Emerald is trying to dissect by interocepting and explicating around her anger, the use of this forum, and the desire to come back. Again, just some speculation. Might not have any grounds at all. But the aversion to humiliation is what propels most of the heated arguments here on and on. And on... and on.

Really, in terms of men showing emotion, for myself, the only thing that flatlines my sexual desire is fear of safety. If a man is expressing with violence my fear system shuts my entire emotional system off. And for myself - my emotions and emotional connection are they keys to my sexual desire.

Perhaps the 'childish' nature of men's behaviour flatlining a woman's sexual desire is more relating to mothering; if a woman feels like a man is immature and she has to perform too much of a matronly mother role this can kill sexual desire. But the woman should be mature enough to be able to look after and care for her man when needed. And also not feel like she is being taken advantage of. 

I am not sure if I answered your questions really... I do find it interesting you have had BPD experience as well.

Edited 19 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, aurum said:

@Emerald

I wonder what the version of you without this adaption would look like.

I've been cracking away at it pretty substantially since I was 20.

Hence, why I feel a bit of resistance to coming on here... as it's me doing what I was doing at age 10 in summer camp. I would subject myself to pain, only to prove myself more stoic to my male peers. And it was before puberty, and I would challenge them all to arm wrestling and win more often than losing. 

Like I was always trying to be tough and macho between age 8 and 11. I think it's because I was sensing intuitively that I was about to lose cherished identities around being physically strong... as guys were about to be pretty much universally stronger than me. (I'm also like 5'2", so that didn't help me.)

And then, I "rebranded" at age 11... and that suddenly wasn't important to me anymore, seemingly. But I still carried a lot of internalized misogyny and resistance to femaleness and Femininity, underneath the surface. And there was plenty of anti-Feminine messaging in pop culture to reinforce it... where very attractive women were frequently scrutinized for being "fat" when they were stick-thin AND they were also made fun of for eating disorders pretty openly.

And I was super misogynistic at age 10-11, in the 5th grade before my "rebrand"... like, I was talking like a Red Pill podcast guy without the sexual resentment component. It's uncanny sometimes to listen to those guys because I hear my 10 year old self.

Like, I would set myself aside in a category that was neither male nor female (like I invented a non-binary identity for myself as a child in the year 1999 just so that I could be misogynistic and hate on girls/women and feel like an exception to my own biting hatred of femaleness and Femininity).

And I needed to do that... or I would become conscious of the self-loathing I felt around being female. I was even semi-aware that I was in some kind of cognitive dissonance around it... but I would just come up with all kinds of reasons why I'm an exception to my judgments.

And it came from a lot of internalized misogyny... where I absorbed from both the patriarchal undercurrents of society where femaleness and Femininity is always the butt of every joke and the well-intentioned, necessary, but problematic messaging of Second Wave Feminism's, "You can do anything a boy can do." (which automatically sets up Masculinity and maleness as superior to Femininity and femaleness... as no one was telling little boys that they could do anything a girl could do. Mind you, a very necessary message in itself.)

I had also had started having issues with my mom... which is probably the biggest origin of that wound. Like, I recall hyper-valuing Femininity when I was a child in order to be like my mom... and I liked women and disliked men. And I had the sense that my parents were on opposing teams, and I wanted to be on team-mom, though I still liked my dad and tried to connect with him. I just hated being subjected to his manly hobbies. But then, at age 8, my mom suddenly flipped on me and got a lot meaner. And she ceased to be the parent I was most connected to... so I started to identify more with my father, who was my safer parent... albeit more distant and more self-oriented.

Now, I don't think either of these hyper-Feminine or hyper-Masculine expressions are me. They've just been ways of trying to ally myself with one or the other of my parents in the face of feeling weaknesses in the foundation of my connection to them... first with a "girls team" mentality and next with a "boys team" mentality. And it was like I started trying to prove myself more Masculine... probably to try to impress my dad with my strength, stoicism, grit, and work ethic. 

And the only relatable female characters that were written during that time is "the girl who's still pretty... but not like the other girls because of her Masculine preferences." And the other female characters were either Feminine pretty bitches or Feminine pretty dumb bimbos. So, it was clear which character the audience was supposed to be rooting for, who was cool and good specifically because she was different than girls and not Feminine (but also incredibly Feminine in appearance and grace).

So, as a teenager (still unconsciously holding onto a lot of internalized misogyny... but believing that I like everyone and conceptualizing of myself as a chilled out person) I sought to shape myself into a physically attractive young woman with Masculine preferences... and it was easy to do with my goth style at the time.

And it's not to say that nothing in all of this is me. It's just mixed in with a bunch of filters and coping strategies.

And I've seen my unfiltered self before in a mushroom journey where the mushrooms forced me to face with unconscious terror and made me sit with the terror for about an hour... and I eventually "popped through the bottom" of the terror and found this equanimous state. And I was able to finally speak as myself... and from my heart.

And it's honestly so frustrating that I don't get to live and express as that all the time. But I keep chipping away at these blocks.

The way I expressed in that time was very soft and calm with effortlessly authoritative... and totally unaffected by fear with all filters removed. It's mostly Feminine but not without integration of the Masculine. And I was just absorbing so much more information from the environment where I was sensitized to subtle energies because nothing rattled me emotionally... as I could allow all feelings. And it took away the need for all the filtering that I do... and not just for the reasons mentioned here. There's tons of filtering for a variety of different reasons.

Also... I saw a being (the same being) twice in two separate medicine journeys of a soft and graceful alien-like Goddess figure possessing immense power and with sacred geometry decorating her skin all over her body like subtle delicate jewelry... but that jewelry was also subtle and swirling and moving through her ethereal skin.

And I saw her as this Feminine being with the Masculine coursing through her like currents in the water... to where it was the Masculine was her subtle adornments, which increased her power and beauty.

And her arms were my arms... and I could look down at my arms and see that it was me. And it doesn't resemble anything of society's gender roles... but it's very Feminine and somewhat Masculine in it's subtle animating qualities.

It seemed to me during the journeys that this being is some other-dimensional aspect of myself.

And in that mushroom journey, I feel like I got to express what that represents through my terrestrial form, but that has been blocked individually and collectively by society's multi-millennia-long polarization into the Masculine and repression of the Feminine. 

[NewKidOnTheBlock]

7 hours ago, Kid A said:

I was just waiting for a comment like this. So predictable.

Milk and cookies to you too then, matter fact some dessert on top of that, as you are eligible for becomming a part of a special unit of M'lady defence forces, detecting potential threats to thy honour

[Carl-Richard]

22 minutes ago, NewKidOnTheBlock said:

Milk and cookies to you too then, matter fact some dessert on top of that, as you are eligible for becomming a part of a special unit of M'lady defence forces, detecting potential threats to thy honour

They say testosterone is correlated with dominance, not aggression. So you don't attack, only defend 😜

Edited 16 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[AION]

7 hours ago, Miguel1 said:

For many of us, this is the only safe place for us to be fully ourselves. Or at least close.

In my day-to-day, I am and show like 5-10% of who I really am deep down. Probably less.

Here I pretty much show everything. At least 90%. You have no idea how that ability makes me feel as an extrovert. I deeply crave socialization and connection with people at the core level, but shallow fake inauthentic BS small-talks leaves me utterly empty.

Being shallow and having fake social face all day, and holding my truest self and depth in - then having a place like this to let it all out. Can you imagine?

I could go on much more, but you seem invested in the notion that we should not take this place too seriously! Seriously!

Just be fully yourself. Nobody is holding you back to be yourself. It is a hard life walking around holding in your fart 

[NewKidOnTheBlock]

35 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

They say testosterone is correlated with dominance, not aggression. So you don't attack, only defend 😜

Yup this place is definitely oozing of testosterone

Edited 15 hours ago by NewKidOnTheBlock

[Kid A]

1 hour ago, NewKidOnTheBlock said:

Milk and cookies to you too then, matter fact some dessert on top of that, as you are eligible for becomming a part of a special unit of M'lady defence forces, detecting potential threats to thy honour

This whole «team women vs. team men, and if a man agrees more with the women on a subject he’s a traitor to his gender!!!» thing is as primitive as it gets. Please stop it. You’re capable of much better than this.

[NewKidOnTheBlock]

35 minutes ago, Kid A said:

This whole «team women vs. team men, and if a man agrees more with the women on a subject he’s a traitor to his gender!!!» thing is as primitive as it gets. Please stop it. You’re capable of much better than this.

I'm not on team men either. I'm just a bitter cynic LOL

[questionreality]

6 hours ago, Emerald said:

That's actually very true in this pattern that I am describing. 

Because society is patriarchal, it values the Masculine over the Feminine... and men are given more respect than women are. And no one wants to be disrespected or devalued. So, from a young age, girls naturally start to internalize misogyny to extricate themselves from association with "those other girls" and adopt more Masculine coping strategies and preferences to get by in the world.

And so, I have always been a Feminine plant growing in patriarchal soil. And in a difficult environment to thrive in that doesn't want you to thrive, one can develop a kind of resilience and anti-fragility.

And around the time I was 8 years old, I really pushed away my Feminine side. And I didn't rediscover it until I was 20 in a medicine journey, where I became aware of my repressed Femininity and that the Feminine was in the grass and trees and night. And I recognized it as my preferred energy.

And I spent the greater part of my 20s diving into my Feminine wounding and unpicking my patriarchal wiring (as I only valued Masculine-principled qualities in my teens and totally devalued Feminine principled qualities... but didn't know that I was doing that because I thought that Masculinity and Femininity were mere social constructs).

And doing that work has enabled me to center myself more in my authentic Feminine power of inherent worthiness, empathy, and connection to the depths and hook it up to my Masculine intellect, discipline, and the many-fold skills that I acquired in my youth.

I still have more to integrate of the Feminine. And there are some areas where I don't know how my Feminine and Masculine aspects integrate together. It's still a work in progress.

But I see part of my work in this life as unearthing the long collectively repressed Feminine power... which society really beats out of both boys and girls, men and women, to the detriment of all.

But I know better than to show my Feminine side in spaces that aren't conducive to it... like this space. I also don't show my Feminine side to men (or women) who haven't' integrated their Feminine side or have disparaging viewpoints about the Feminine. 

A good litmus test for whether a guy (or woman) isn't safe to show your Feminine side to is if they complain of women being too Masculine. If that is his experience of women, it means that women don't feel safe enough to be open and vulnerable in his presence... and that he very likely afflicted by some degree of misogyny.

So, for my Feminine side, I find safer containers for it. But this is certainly not the container for it... as the culture of this place if very incompatible with Femininity itself. And it's the reason why so many men on this forum struggle to find female partners.

So, I don't come here to share my Feminine side... I come here to show my Masculine side and to out-dick everyone because there's some intrigue about it. It's like an old mode from childhood. 

So, I've learned to adapt quite well within that patriarchal context. And I think that's why I like coming here. It's SUPER male dominated and most of the men are hyper-polarized into their Masculine side. So, it's a lot of guys who are struggling under weight of the patriarchal culture. And I know that I can usually best them in intellectual sparring matches if I'm working with both polarities and they're only working with one polarity. It's like boxing with someone who has one arm tied behind their back.

So, while living in hyper-Masculine society is more challenging for women to thrive in in certain ways, there's a perk that women tend to be more integrated between their Masculine and Feminine side than men are.... and less likely to make themselves fragile by polarizing into extremes.

That said, PLENTY of women do repress their Feminine side because of the patriarchal conditioning. So, until a woman becomes conscious of that, she will be significantly weakened... as she will see her greatest strengths as her weaknesses.

But this kind of environment, causes a sizable percentage of men hyper-polarize into Masculinity and repress their Femininity at all costs... and it stunts them horribly with relationships and emotional literacy.

So, even though women are struggling to ideally thrive in the hyper-Masculine soil of the culture... men often tend to be in a worse place because men still believe that the poison is the antidote and keep re-upping on the poison and continuing to polarize themselves and repress a very large part of themselves. And it has all these shame-based side-effects.

In countries like Russia, Ukraine and in Eastern Europe in general the society is more patriarchal than in western countries, yet the women there are way more feminine on average than in the western world. (I lived in both just in case). 
 

How do you explain this?

Something tells me what you said cannot be entirely true, there has to be other reasons, including cultural.
 

[Carl-Richard]

7 hours ago, questionreality said:

In countries like Russia, Ukraine and in Eastern Europe in general the society is more patriarchal than in western countries, yet the women there are way more feminine on average than in the western world. (I lived in both just in case). 
 

How do you explain this?

Something tells me what you said cannot be entirely true, there has to be other reasons, including cultural.

More strict gender roles.

[Emerald]

8 hours ago, questionreality said:

In countries like Russia, Ukraine and in Eastern Europe in general the society is more patriarchal than in western countries, yet the women there are way more feminine on average than in the western world. (I lived in both just in case). 
How do you explain this?

Something tells me what you said cannot be entirely true, there has to be other reasons, including cultural.
 

Perhaps to your perception as a man, that's true. Men tend to have a more relational and surface-level understanding of what Femininity is that mostly just serves the purposes of sexual reproduction. Most men tend to define Femininity simply as what they find sexually attractive about women... which tends to be along the lines of what I would call Springtime Femininity. 

But Springtime and Summertime are Masculine seasons. And Fall and Winter are the Feminine seasons. Youth is Masculine. Age is Feminine.

So, Springtime Femininity it isn't very reflective of Femininity-proper... as the Feminine is dark and cyclical. Imagine the archetype of the wise old witch... who has witnessed all the cycles of the world and who alchemizes the negative into the positive.

So, Springtime is the Feminine appearance with all the darkness and cyclicality washed out of it. And men who repress their own Feminine side can tend to relate to women as a static archetype of Springtime Femininity... which all women pass through for a short time.

So, the type of Femininity you speak of is Masculnity-washed Femininity, which men who polarize into the Masculine and push away their Feminine side often feel is more palatable to interact with than the deep Feminine... as the deep Feminine is the negative polarity itself.

This is why women who see their relationship to the Feminine only from a desire to attract men can end up in the adornments of traditional Femininity and culturally understood Femininity... but lack the power and depth of the actual connection to the Feminine power.

And so much of the Feminine is very repulsive to a lot of men... as most men are trying really hard to extricate the Feminine from themselves.

And if you want to connect to it as a woman, you have to accept that it will have both an attractive and repellent effect. You will attract those who are interested in connecting deeply... and repel those who fear the Feminine.

So, what you're referring to isn't what I mean by Feminine.  As I said in my post, you can feel the Feminine in the night and the trees and the grass. It doesn't have much to do with culturally understood signifiers of Femininity... at least not very much. 

So, we can differentiate between these concepts... there's the deep Feminine and there's the culturally Feminine.

And cultural Femininity can certainly act as a coping strategy and a protective shield to deal with a patriarchal culture with stricter gender roles. But it also disconnects a woman from the deep well-spring of Feminine power.... AND her Masculine side as well.

Maybe a woman might feel pressured to look a certain way to fit in. Or maybe a woman might feel pressured to keep her voice small or her behaviors dainty. 

But that isn't the real Feminine. There are some qualities in it that belong in the Feminine principle and others that belong in the Masculine principle. 

And in a patriarchal society with strict gender roles, it's even harder one women. So, they are required to fully fit into the box of traditional Femininity... which is also very disconnected from the deeper Feminine.

So, while women existing in a more Stage Orange society causes women to push away the Feminine and adopt the Masculine... women in a Stage Blue society who don't necessarily have that freedom, must operate fully within the narrow box that's alotted to them. This means that they must strip themselves of their Masculine side AND the majority of their Feminine side.

[Inliytened1]

On 11/16/2025 at 2:09 PM, Emerald said:

I've been on and off with this forum since it began. And truth-be-told, even though I've met some cool people, I never really enjoyed the vibes in the culture of this place... at least not since the very beginning. It definitely isn't the kind of culture that I would cultivate if I had my own forum as it's a pretty combative space... and my philosophy on curating social spaces is about creating a safe container that enables people to be more open and vulnerable.

And yet, I feel quite drawn to coming back here... even though I find it to be a bit draining. And I've been reflecting on this in the past couple days. And I think I figured out what it is.

To give some context, I have always had issues with being aware of and expressing anger. When I was a child, I discovered that anytime I ever tried to stand up for myself it was futile and just made things worse... and it would just add insult to injury. And eventually, I developed this coping strategy of remaining stoic and unemotional in the face of boundary violations and things that I dislike. And anger became my worst enemy.

And this was very empowering because those who might try to engage in verbal abuse towards me would have nothing to grab ahold of. I would just sit there and watch them jump up and down like a yo-yo and cuss and scream and insult me at the top of their lungs... and watch them completely buckle under the futility of getting a reaction out of me.

So this worked a lot better than what was before. As a child, it was just embarrassing and demoralizing when I would try to stand up for myself and it would backfire. So, as a pre-teen, when I decided towards a stance of never getting angry and never showing anger, it was like this shield where people didn't mess with me as much.... and people couldn't get a rise out of me. 

So, it was a powerful stance to disengage and have a perpetual poker-face in combination with coming across as cool and laid back. And it also came with certain cherished identities where people would see me as this really chilled out person who's easy to be around.

And I would receive people unconditionally without push-back on anything... which helped me develop the ability for me to just hold space for people. And this parlayed into something very near and dear to my life's purpose, which is the ability to exercise deep levels of understanding and compassion for why someone is the way that they are... and to see it as always logically understandable as to why anyone is the way that they are.

It's a very merciful viewpoint to hold in a very unmerciful world. So, it's quite valuable to many people.

But in the less aligned elements of this coping strategy (despite its many positives) it can enable a lot of terrible behavior and leave you without defense. And it puts a gag on anger and disgust... and enables all sorts of boundary violations. It's like having no lock on the door of a home with lots of money laying around in it. And if someone comes in and steals the money, I can't even say anything about it because it would feel like I was being un-stoic, disempowered, and no better than cruel plebeian angry masses.

So, it put me in a place where I'd have no choice but to simply quit while I'm behind. And it would temporarily make me feel like a loser and very (whatever the gender neutral term is for emasculation), but I'd reframe it quickly as some kind of stoic strength that proved me stronger and more dominant than them... like a priest that says, "Oh my poor child... you are lost."

And that is always how I'd responded when anger comes up... ignore it, it's futile anyone, let's quit while I'm behind... then reframe it as some kind of stoic virtue.

 And of course, a lifetime of that builds a lot of rage. But that rage gets turned always inward because it's me allowing these things to happen.

And I had even (as a teenager) developed a cosmology where the concept of right and wrong is completely relativistic (for others) but absolute (for me). And I pretended for a couple years to have no strong convictions and that I was perfectly moderate in all ways. My philosophy as a 12 year old was always to stay in the middle of the road... which I framed as a wisdom that arises from detachment but was actually a coping strategy to avoid confrontation.

So, it placed me in this elevated space of stoic superiority, where I accepted all things and was exercising god-like forgiveness to others for their short-comings and trying to practice unconditional love, receptivity, and acceptance of that person.... but if I were to show some kind of flaw (especially anger or disgust towards that person), I'd be very ruthless with myself because "I should do better than others."

It was like, the world can be as angry, frenetic, emotionally weak, terrible, and cruel as it wants to be... because it will only draw emphasis to my own state of stoic detached grace. And by contrast, I will be the winner.

And then there'd be all these fears that I've harmed a person if I even have a mild expression of anger or disgust on my face... not only for fear of falling from my pedestal of stoic grace but for fear of subjecting others to cruelty... as I so hated the cruel and the pain they cause.

So, I built lots of filtering mechanisms that have made my anger and disgust even unconscious to myself. And I check my facial muscles constantly in conversation to make sure that I'm not hurting that other person with unconscious micro-expressions... be remaining hyper-conscious of my micro-expressions.

And it built out this entire superiority complex in my teens around being the one super-human who can accept others without anger or disgust. And this put me in very vulnerable positions in my relationships because I tolerated so much to maintain that superior identity.

But being the graceful one who unconditionally loves the cruel one was the way that I had always coped. So it made sense that this pattern would show up in my life. And I was frequently the target of cruelty... which would strengthen my identity because I built a philosophy of, "Even if someone comes up and beats the crap out of me, I will not land even a single punch on them. I will simply absorb it and stay stoic."

Mind you, a lot of this broke down under the sheer weight of living life... especially when I entered the work-force at 16. But that foundation that I built between age 12 and 16 is still there.

And I still have a hard time with knowing what to do with my anger. I've seen the value of integrating it now since my early 20s. But I haven't gotten over the fear of being the cruel sadistic woman who harms with abusive words and facial expressions... which is the origin point of this whole mess.

I don't want to hurt anyone... which I feel is very easy to accidentally because I interpret people as very very sensitive, and like I exist as a tiger among bunny rabbits. And one wrong move (even a subtle facial expression that reflects a tiny bit of anger) and I will unintentionally split the bunny rabbit in half... even if I make the slightly wrong facial express or use the wrong word. That person will totally implode.

And I don't want to be the 'cruel inferior plebeian' who is too weak to be stoic and kind.

So, that's the context.

But on this forum, there's actually space for this disowned part of me that is sadistic, angry, and cruel... and who delights in defeating others.

And I don't need to show my facial expression or see theirs. So, I don't feel like I'm tip-toeing around bunny rabbits.

Plus, my most effective and sharpest sword is my intellect. And on here, I can have all sorts of intellectual duels with people.

So, what I do is that I channel my sadism, anger, and cruelty and I hook it up to my intellect... which is an effective weapon, and not futile like my childhood expressions of anger.

And with my intellect, I can still maintain the image of stoicism because it's a cold process. And I can channel my sadism, anger, and cruelty through the stoic mask of my intellect.

Then, I have certain rules for dueling that both cloak my sadistic tendencies and mitigate the harm of them, which are...

• I must remain intellectually honest
• I must not use ad hominem attacks
• I must not grand-stand or posture in empty ways (i.e. "You just don't get it the way that I do." or "Well, you're Stage Blue/Red? Green, so..." or (posturing myself like the authority who knows something the other person doesn't) "That's for you to figure out on your own."
• I must genuinely try to help the other person understand
• I must not use logical fallacies
• I must state the source of where my insight is deriving from so as to give my explanation the proper amount of authority in the eyes of the reader (i.e. a scientific study, an insight that I got, what makes logical sense to me, my friend experienced this, etc.)
• I must clean up what I've written to take off any personalized harsh edges... and keep my edginess purely in the intellectual dismantling of the topic at hand.

And so, in this space, there's a ton of nerdy guys getting into combative intellectual arguments with one another to prove who is the most intellectual or the most correct. And I know that I can out-do most of them because of my fealty to intellectual honesty and reconciliation of many perspectives.

So, this forum is like a big intellectual dick-measuring contest... and I have a really big one.  And I like to win.

And it's like bumper-cars... if you're going to participate, combativeness is par for the course.

But in cases where the person has a cruel or ignorant perspective that muddies the water around or enables the plebeian cruelty that endemic in this world, I really take the gloves off. 

In my typical response to this, I receive that person entirely and seek to understand why the person had developed that perspective.

But in this setting, I can just dismantle it... and defeat their perspective. And instead of doing the emotional labor of holding space for a person to be exactly where they are... I can actually express, "This viewpoint is a problem, because it would lead to x, y, z outcomes."

So, I get to draw firm lines in the sand. 

But the sadism piece of this is also present, as there is a desire to cause some pain to those who have a more cruel perspective... or who act as enablers to cruel perspectives. 

And I recall once, when I was in an argument that was in-kind to arguing against cruelty, I was laying on the couch. 

And suddenly an image of myself came into my head of this queen that looks a bit like Helena Bonham Carter's version of the Queen in Alice in Wonderland... but much rougher and colder than that. 

It was this stoic, cold, sadistic mean queen. And she had a look of sheer hatred and disgust on her stony face. Her forehead was high... which fashionable ladies used to pluck their hairline to give themselves a really high hairline and around the renaissance. Her face was powdered. And she had thin black lips. And she was laying in the same position as me and on the same couch as me. She had medium-short curly reddish hair.

It was like this image was showing me this part of myself. It's like, this forum is the only space where I can be her... but also hide her under the guise of the intention of intellectual helpfulness.

So, at the top level, I can genuinely be trying to help... and I always am.

But I am so angry about human cruelty, that there is this cold death mother drive that's somewhat akin to the idea of, "I brought you into this world... and I can take you out... that is if you can't play nice with your sibling or the family pets and you're destroying the house."

It's like this, if you can't play nice, let's just set the world on fire and be done with it. And I can really channel that on here... especially when people are advocating for cruel/foolish perspective and/or perspectives that muddy the waters to enable cruelty and foolishness to continue unchecked.

And it's like I made myself into a dormant volcano of cruelty where I hold it all in to cope with cruelty and defeat the cruel ones by denying them an outlet. But I have had no outlet for that cruelty and anger because the stoic method also gives me the same kind of powerlessness... but the forum gives me an outlet. 

And it's like I can keep running through the process that I needed to happen when I was a child... to have my anger actually win me the fight that I was in the right about.

I always felt you were drawn here because actual enlightenment..actual Truth..is taught here.  And I felt you intuited that.  Somehow.   And you knew that it was within your grasp.  Truth.

Edited 5 hours ago by Inliytened1

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

I always felt you were drawn here because actual enlightenment..actual Truth..is taught here.  And I felt you intuited that.  Somehow.   And you knew that it was within your grasp.  Truth.

When I came on her 8 years ago, it was what I was looking for. And there was a bit of that in the first year or so.

But what really draws me here is a much more base-level drive... to get into intellectual sparring matches.

I don't see this place as a space for deeper transformation, as that requires a softer container. I see it as an intellectual debate club where I can sharpen my sword and learn to fence better.

[Inliytened1]

2 minutes ago, Emerald said:

When I came on her 8 years ago, it was what I was looking for. And there was a bit of that in the first year or so.

But what really draws me here is a much more base-level drive... to get into intellectual sparring matches.

I don't see this place as a space for deeper transformation, as that requires a softer container. I see it as an intellectual debate club where I can sharpen my sword and learn to fence better.

Only looking within yourself can be a space for deeper transformation.  

[Yimpa]

11 minutes ago, Emerald said:

a space for deeper transformation, as that requires a softer container

I like it both hard and soft. I am exploring what that balance looks like.

Edited 5 hours ago by Yimpa

[questionreality]

5 hours ago, Emerald said:

Perhaps to your perception as a man, that's true. Men tend to have a more relational and surface-level understanding of what Femininity is that mostly just serves the purposes of sexual reproduction. Most men tend to define Femininity simply as what they find sexually attractive about women... which tends to be along the lines of what I would call Springtime Femininity. 

But Springtime and Summertime are Masculine seasons. And Fall and Winter are the Feminine seasons. Youth is Masculine. Age is Feminine.

So, Springtime Femininity it isn't very reflective of Femininity-proper... as the Feminine is dark and cyclical. Imagine the archetype of the wise old witch... who has witnessed all the cycles of the world and who alchemizes the negative into the positive.

So, Springtime is the Feminine appearance with all the darkness and cyclicality washed out of it. And men who repress their own Feminine side can tend to relate to women as a static archetype of Springtime Femininity... which all women pass through for a short time.

So, the type of Femininity you speak of is Masculnity-washed Femininity, which men who polarize into the Masculine and push away their Feminine side often feel is more palatable to interact with than the deep Feminine... as the deep Feminine is the negative polarity itself.

This is why women who see their relationship to the Feminine only from a desire to attract men can end up in the adornments of traditional Femininity and culturally understood Femininity... but lack the power and depth of the actual connection to the Feminine power.

And so much of the Feminine is very repulsive to a lot of men... as most men are trying really hard to extricate the Feminine from themselves.

And if you want to connect to it as a woman, you have to accept that it will have both an attractive and repellent effect. You will attract those who are interested in connecting deeply... and repel those who fear the Feminine.

So, what you're referring to isn't what I mean by Feminine.  As I said in my post, you can feel the Feminine in the night and the trees and the grass. It doesn't have much to do with culturally understood signifiers of Femininity... at least not very much. 

So, we can differentiate between these concepts... there's the deep Feminine and there's the culturally Feminine.

And cultural Femininity can certainly act as a coping strategy and a protective shield to deal with a patriarchal culture with stricter gender roles. But it also disconnects a woman from the deep well-spring of Feminine power.... AND her Masculine side as well.

Maybe a woman might feel pressured to look a certain way to fit in. Or maybe a woman might feel pressured to keep her voice small or her behaviors dainty. 

But that isn't the real Feminine. There are some qualities in it that belong in the Feminine principle and others that belong in the Masculine principle. 

And in a patriarchal society with strict gender roles, it's even harder one women. So, they are required to fully fit into the box of traditional Femininity... which is also very disconnected from the deeper Feminine.

So, while women existing in a more Stage Orange society causes women to push away the Feminine and adopt the Masculine... women in a Stage Blue society who don't necessarily have that freedom, must operate fully within the narrow box that's alotted to them. This means that they must strip themselves of their Masculine side AND the majority of their Feminine side.

With all due respect, it seems like you are using a very personal definition of “feminine” that isn’t grounded in anthropology, psychology, or culture. It looks like your own symbolic framework, or system, which is fine, but it’s not a universal definition of femininity.

Also, framing men’s understanding of femininity as primarily sexual is actually a stereotype. Men learn femininity first from their mothers, grandmothers, sisters, teachers, colleagues, etc. These are relationships where sexuality plays zero role. Those relationships shape a man’s concept of femininity far more deeply than attraction does imo.

And many women themselves would agree that women in certain cultures (like Eastern Europe) express femininity more visibly.

My original point was an empirical one. There are observable patterns of behavior, aesthetics, speech, social norms, etc.

But you reframed it entirely into a model of “deep feminine vs springtime feminine,” and then dismissed those concrete cultural differences as “patriarchy shaped fake femininity.”

Edited 46 minutes ago by questionreality

[Elliott]

38 minutes ago, questionreality said:

With all due respect, it seems like you are using a very personal definition of “feminine” that isn’t grounded in anthropology, psychology, or culture. It looks like your own symbolic framework, or system, which is fine, but it’s not a universal definition of femininity.

Also, framing men’s understanding of femininity as primarily sexual is actually a stereotype. Men learn femininity first from their mothers, grandmothers, sisters, teachers, colleagues, etc. These are relationships where sexuality plays zero role. Those relationships shape a man’s concept of femininity far more deeply than attraction does imo.

And many women themselves would agree that women in certain cultures (like Eastern Europe) express femininity more visibly.

My original point was an empirical one. There are observable patterns of behavior, aesthetics, speech, social norms, etc.

But you reframed it entirely into a model of “deep feminine vs springtime feminine,” and then dismissed those concrete cultural differences as “patriarchy shaped fake femininity.”

Whats your definition of feminity?

I've always thought of eastern European and Russian women as more masculine, strict, tough, stoic. I see feminity more in western liberal arts intellectuals or artistic women.

 

Edited 8 minutes ago by Elliott

[integral]

18 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I think what sets me apart in terms of atypical is that I have a very good understanding/integration/ability to flip flop between masculine and feminine polarities. Most of the issues with the men I had experience with BPD manifested as extreme anger and then lucid shame spirals in a loop. The most difficult aspect of this sort of personality type is assuring them that connection and acceptance is still present even when there is disagreement. Any perceived 'difference' in personality is seen as a rejection. Most of the issue is an unclear sense of self and boundaries - often leading sufferers to absorb their partners likes and dislikes in an attempt to connect. 

So when the sufferer was 'triggered' I would have to hold space and remain calm and hold boundaries until the main emotional pain had run its course. Doing this put me into a masculine frame and would de-energise my sexuality. Once connection was reassured I can let it all go - and this surrender would put me back into a feminine frame of expression which would bring back my desire for love, sex and connection. I do not think I view BPD as 'childish' in behaviour - I view it as a suffering individual in extreme pain. I try not to judge as there is so much stigma around personality disorders - especially cluster b.

The ability to let things go is what puts me back into a feminine frame. I do not hold onto feelings needlessly. I express them in a healthy manner, and then I am done. I feel like a lot of women get trapped in their emotions and cannot surrender and then let go. And they can use their emotions and feelings to try to validate a point. But I think men and women do this equally, it just seems to me that it manifests in different ways. Men tend to get angry and use rationality to bypass emotion. Which can appear more logical, but is based in emotions and feelings. Women tend to express them all in larger bursts and variety. Maybe my experience with BPD men has shown me how both sexes do this?

In the end the desire to win any sort of debate is just the aversion to the feeling of humiliation. Which makes me think perhaps this could be something @Emerald is trying to dissect by interocepting and explicating around her anger, the use of this forum, and the desire to come back. Again, just some speculation. Might not have any grounds at all. But the aversion to humiliation is what propels most of the heated arguments here on and on. And on... and on.

Really, in terms of men showing emotion, for myself, the only thing that flatlines my sexual desire is fear of safety. If a man is expressing with violence my fear system shuts my entire emotional system off. And for myself - my emotions and emotional connection are they keys to my sexual desire.

Perhaps the 'childish' nature of men's behaviour flatlining a woman's sexual desire is more relating to mothering; if a woman feels like a man is immature and she has to perform too much of a matronly mother role this can kill sexual desire. But the woman should be mature enough to be able to look after and care for her man when needed. And also not feel like she is being taken advantage of. 

I am not sure if I answered your questions really... I do find it interesting you have had BPD experience as well.

If you can handle BPD men, then you're operating at one of the highest levels of relationship maturity and emotional maturity.

Did you have mature parents?

Reading your reply, made me realize that my father had BPD, "huge burst of anger over spilled milk, followed by shame, regret and apologies, daily". Having him as a father taught me at a every young age that it was my responsibility to manage his emotions for him. That i was brainwashed into thinking the point of social interaction is to manage other people's emotions for them, tiptoeing on egg shells with everyone.

Much of your reply directly reflects how I operate in relationships and there's overlap. The only difference would be that safety doesn't really play a role. Which is probably because I have a physically strong body so I never feel unsafe, there's also cultural role-play happening, where males just don't feel unsafe around women.

The thing that would kill my sexual interest in a partner is them not seeing any value in me. If they don't see the work and value, I put into their lives then I am so repulsed that I don't want to touch them. I guess this could be framed as being looked down upon? And the opposite is also true the more you value everything I do for you, the more I want to do for you. The more that a woman expresses how they value their man's actions, choice or behaviour the more the man falls in love with them.

 

Quote

Men tend to get angry and use rationality to bypass emotion. Which can appear more logical, but is based in emotions and feelings. Women tend to express them all in larger bursts and variety. Maybe my experience with BPD men has shown me how both sexes do this?

Both use rationality to justify there emotions. I dont see the difference, from my experience with woman BPD, its a solid line of "rational" thinking leading there tantrums. 

The overlap with what you wroth is so strong that i see very few differences between the way we opperate.

So there doesnt seem to be differences between the sexes in relationships when operating at a high level of maturity. There still seems to be differences with attraction and needs, like primary things closer rooted to biology. But secondary things at higher brain regions seems to overlap alot between sexes.

I think a lot of the issues people have with sexism comes down to not making any of these distinctions and lumping any claim of difference in big soup of misogyny.

---

There were alot of interesting differences doe.

Quote

So when the sufferer was 'triggered' I would have to hold space and remain calm and hold boundaries until the main emotional pain had run its course. Doing this put me into a masculine frame and would de-energise my sexuality. Once connection was reassured I can let it all go - and this surrender would put me back into a feminine frame of expression which would bring back my desire for love, sex and connection. I do not think I view BPD as 'childish' in behaviour - I view it as a suffering individual in extreme pain. I try not to judge as there is so much stigma around personality disorders - especially cluster b

This is SO funny! I have to do the opposite, i enter into a feminine frame of play and love to counter the tantrum, then i go back to holding space in a default masculine mode.

I know this is unpolitical but with BPD i see a child having a tantrum and empathy for it is important but not to much that you have your boundaries crossed. Especially when there tantrums are everyday. Obviously theres nothing to judge, there mentally ill. And even if there not mentally ill, there mentally ill, such is a living thing lol

Quote

The ability to let things go is what puts me back into a feminine frame. I do not hold onto feelings needlessly. I express them in a healthy manner, and then I am done. I feel like a lot of women get trapped in their emotions and cannot surrender and then let go. And they can use their emotions and feelings to try to validate a point. But I think men and women do this equally, it just seems to me that it manifests in different ways.

This is a good insight, Do you recover from emotions super fast? like a few minutes? and do you have healthy strategies to manage them?

I agree men and woman will hold onto there emotions and try to validate a point with it, but emotions seem to linger much longer in woman.

[Leo Gura]

It makes sense that women in underdeveloped nations are more stereotypically feminine since that's the only role afforded to them by collective survival conditions. The less developed the more women are playing the role of baby machine.

Gender has a large performative aspect. You are feminine just by virtue of having 5 babies and not working a 9-5 office job.

Edited just now by Leo Gura