Direct Consciousness & Psychedelic Drugs

[Leo Gura]

Not him. He is a lost cause. You!

[Salvijus]

32 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Not him. He is a lost cause. You!

I don't think that would settle the debate. But I appreciate you trying to help me, if that's what your intention was. 

[AerisVahnEphelia]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Ralston is doubly wrong. Not only do drugs absolutely raise consciousness, no sober effort of any kind can raise your consciousness as much as drugs can.

It is not just that drugs can, it is that those who haven't taken drugs can't even imagine what drugs can do.

I have seen Ralston's students. None of them are conscious of what I have become conscious of and they never will be.

Self-inquiry is a joke.

Ain't nobody at Ralston's workshops conscious to the level of DMT. Nobody!!! Stop this BS.

It is hard for me to even recommend Ralston any more because of how wrong and dogmatic he is on this issue. He is misleading all of his students about psychedelics.

One breakthrough DMT trip is worth 10 Ralston workshops.

I never did DMT.

But drugs were definitely vital for enlightment.  Especially LSD.

But I've seen too many stay even asleep after DMT, and LSD alone rarely does it.

Edited Thursday at 08:59 AM by AerisVahnEphelia

[Nemo28]

Since you are ultimately the only authority here, you decide if Ralston or Leo is right, maybe neither or both. Mind always wants to grasp some certainty. Psychedelics can certainly be part of your journey. There's too much negative social projections regarding "drugs". Those who want to feel more safe will seek meditation, those on more rebellious side - psychedelics - but those who want to be insulated will go to church   

[koops]

19 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

It's not even about context, what you're describing is experience. Everything that they do is affect your experience. It isn't a state either, and the points above still apply to the yoguis.

 

Its not an experience. When the self disolves and you realize you are One, there is no experience. You can label that after the fact. The ego can recall it like that. But its not.

 

19 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

It's like having a realization while drunk - do you think the presumed increased consciousness would be attributed to the alcohol? They're completely different domains. 

If you get drunk and somehow you have an insight that your wife is cheating on you, and you are correct, then that substance showed you the truth. Is that a non legit way to get that realization?

The truth was there all the time. You couldnt see it. But now you see it. 

[UnbornTao]

On 10/22/2025 at 8:49 PM, Leo Gura said:

It is not just that drugs can, it is that those who haven't taken drugs can't even imagine what drugs can do.

I appreciate this response:

How many times does it have to be said that everyone and their mother has taken the drugs - and in high doses - for it to sink in?

Not only that, but people with actual enlightenments have, too - saying it isn't it. Their stance is based on consciousness rather than an experience. 

--

What some of you essentially presume is that the substances or a brain condition could have changed, altered, touched, or influenced what someone like Nisargadatta was directly conscious of.

Look closely at your presumptions regarding consciousness - what you're really referring to is most likely awareness and experience, which is all that can be cognized.

There may not be a reference point for us to truly comprehend what "direct consciousness" is about, except as a notion - one that's perhaps closer to the firsthand experiencing of something, which isn't the same thing. 

It's, once again, like thinking that such realization is lost (or gained) when one is drunk, depressed, feeling one with the universe, or having a stroke. It's independent of that world.

Edited 8 hours ago by UnbornTao

[UnbornTao]

 

[UnbornTao]

On 10/22/2025 at 11:01 PM, cetus said:

With all the "experimentation" with psychedelics that went on in the 60's and 70's, you have to ask yourself-

Where are all the enlightened hippies?" 

Right? Nobody seems to be seriously entertaining some of these questions. It's easier to overlook them. Or you'll come up with some reasons or excuses as to why that is, like genetics, stupidity, or lack of proper methodology. But neither of that really addresses the main point. 

Edited Friday at 07:35 PM by UnbornTao

[UnbornTao]

On 10/23/2025 at 4:00 PM, koops said:

Its not an experience. When the self disolves and you realize you are One, there is no experience. You can label that after the fact. The ego can recall it like that. But its not.

 

If you get drunk and somehow you have an insight that your wife is cheating on you, and you are correct, then that substance showed you the truth. Is that a non legit way to get that realization?

The truth was there all the time. You couldnt see it. But now you see it. 

I can follow your logic, but the premise is flawed. The substance can only alter your brain chemistry and its activity, and truth isn't a function of that.

You're talking about a state - one I'm familiar with and have experienced during 5-MeO breakthroughs.

I also deluded myself that those experiences were something they were not.

Edited Friday at 07:48 PM by UnbornTao

[cetus]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

You're talking about a state - one I'm familiar with and have experienced during 5-MeO breakthroughs.

That's exactly where the argument lies. Some will say the experiences with psychedelics can lead to truth where others will argue they only produce "states" and states are states, not absolute truth. Nisargadatta was known for this. He would ask a deciple "tell me about your deepest realization". And no matter what answer they gave, he would always reply: "That's not it". Why? Because the Absolute is beyond all experience. It is "pure consciousness" beyond what can be perceived or known.

 

Edited Friday at 04:51 PM by cetus

[vibv]

Psychedelics can't bring you enlightenment, that's for sure.

Nothing that "happens" can.

Edited Friday at 05:01 PM by vibv

[UnbornTao]

"What would DMT do?"

[UnbornTao]

22 hours ago, cetus said:

That's exactly where the argument lies. Some will say the experiences with psychedelics can lead to truth where others will argue they only produce "states" and states are states, not absolute truth. Nisargadatta was known for this. He would ask a deciple "tell me about your deepest realization". And no matter what answer they gave, he would always reply: "That's not it". Why? Because the Absolute is beyond all experience. It is "pure consciousness" beyond what can be perceived or known.

Plus, it would've been relatively easy - and tempting - to conjure up and formulate some "insights" in and with my mind afterwards.

A crucial question for people:

Were you enlightened prior to taking them, or

did you resort to the drugs in the hope that they'd lead you to enlightenment (and therefore lack the reference for this realization)?

The answer is almost always the latter. From that, mischief can easily occur, where one confuses a state for "consciousness."

"Potentially deluding altogether," according to Adi Da.

Edited 9 hours ago by UnbornTao

[cetus]

@UnbornTao Enlightenment is not an experience. Experiences are states which happen within consciousness and are infinite. Exploring these "infinite states" can lead to enlightenment. But it is not enlightenment itself. Enlightenment happens when one's desire to explore these infinite states has been completely extinguished. Then only pure beingness remains.

*One must be careful with chasing experiences as they can get themself caught in a trap without realizing it. Even beautiful experiences such as Samadhi (total union) must be let go of.

As a side note: I used to believe fear was the so called "gateless- gate" to enlightenment. And at that time, it was. But now I've learned there is another, more difficult gate for the ego to pass through. One which involves surrendering even the most blissful of states.

-I'll have to give a listen to the video you provided.

[James123]

15 minutes ago, cetus said:

@UnbornTao Enlightenment is not an experience. Experiences are states which happen within consciousness and are infinite. Exploring these "infinite states" can lead to enlightenment. But it is not enlightenment itself. Enlightenment happens when one's desire to explore these infinite states has been completely extinguished. Then only pure beingness remains.

*One must be careful with chasing experiences as they can get themself caught in a trap without realizing it. Even beautiful experiences such as Samadhi (total union) must be let go of.

As a side note: I used to believe fear was the so called "gateless- gate" to enlightenment. And at that time, it was. But now I've learned there is another, more difficult gate for the ego to pass through. One which involves surrendering even the most blissful of states.

-I'll have to give a listen to the video you provided.

Mind can't grasp this. I have told million times, didn't work. Direct Being is must .

 

[Salvijus]

7 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

"What would DMT do?"

Lol

[ExploringReality]

On 10/22/2025 at 1:21 PM, Leo Gura said:

On the other hand, it is great that this issue forces you guys to test this matter for yourselves rather than believing either one of us.

I don't want you to believe me, I want you to test if psychedelics raise consciousness. This is a simple empirical test.

Pure foolishness. Psychedelics are direct consciousness. Peter ralston is a genius but we can't just give our authority and sovereignty of mind to other people no matter how conscious they are, they are inherently putting a cap on areas to which they are ignorant. 

It's the old "don't do drugs, there ain't nothing in it but change of state" nonsense.

My attitude is that psychedelics are to be respected more than I respect Peter or Leo. Some people just have shitty maps of certain territories, the very first actualized.org video I ever came across was while tripping on psilocybin and I found Leo's episode on his experience with magic mushrooms!!!!. I was astonished how swiftly and elegant you described your experience of transcending your life story and your experience with deep spiritual Love. But the only reason why I was able to appreciate your experiences is because I was coming directly from my own! 

I can tell you from first-hand experience, all of my psychedelic trips, have literally raised my consciousness. You don't understand what consciousness is until you have a psychedelic experience, not just taking a psychedelic. Imagine how you would feel if you were to take four shots of coffee but you're not jittery and just pure clean consciousness. Just imagine that times 10 and also try to understand it's not exactly that because if you haven't tripped then you wouldn't know what I mean. Consciousness expands to the point where it swallows yourself image and your identity.

Edited 4 hours ago by ExploringReality

[ExploringReality]

On 10/22/2025 at 5:32 PM, Natasha Tori Maru said:

In addition - how many of those hippies who made breakthroughs would go on to publicise or teach others/become a guru? 

There could be many enlightened hippies and we would never know.

Ram dass, Terrence mckenna. These guys kept the light and went deep within. Still had delusions but consciousness was the main focus.

I use to read be here now while tripping on LSD, incredible but that was only the start to my journey 

Edited 4 hours ago by ExploringReality

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, cetus said:

@UnbornTao Enlightenment is not an experience. Experiences are states which happen within consciousness and are infinite. Exploring these "infinite states" can lead to enlightenment. But it is not enlightenment itself. Enlightenment happens when one's desire to explore these infinite states has been completely extinguished. Then only pure beingness remains.

*One must be careful with chasing experiences as they can get themself caught in a trap without realizing it. Even beautiful experiences such as Samadhi (total union) must be let go of.

As a side note: I used to believe fear was the so called "gateless- gate" to enlightenment. And at that time, it was. But now I've learned there is another, more difficult gate for the ego to pass through. One which involves surrendering even the most blissful of states.

-I'll have to give a listen to the video you provided.

What I am pointing to -- God-Realization -- has nothing to do with pleasant states or beautiful experiences, and it is beyond enlightenment. No amount of surrendering will get you to it. It requires supreme understanding.

[theoneandnone]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

What I am pointing to -- God-Realization -- has nothing to do with pleasant states or beautiful experiences, and it is beyond enlightenment. No amount of surrendering will get you to it. It requires supreme understanding.

Don’t you have to go balls to the wall insane to understand?

Edited 1 hour ago by theoneandnone