Who Wants Actualized Psychedelic Retreats?

[Jodistrict]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

It means that people who speak about nonduality are in lower states of consciousness than what is possible.

You are getting too pedantic about words. Words are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that you understand that there exist much higher states of consciousness than your current state. Stop acting like what I am saying is so paradoxical and confusing. It isn't. It is so clear a child could understand me.

Ant >> rat >> chimp >> human >> nondual human >> alien >> God level 1 >> God level 2 >> God level 3 >> etc

When you make any argument to me, that is coming from your existing state of consciousness. Your arguments have zero validity in higher states. This includes all arguments made by nondualists and Buddhists and enlightened people. Literally nothing you say matters because none of it exists at a higher state.

If you do not understand this, I don't know how to help you.

At which level does suffering cease?  

[Leo Gura]

25 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

At which level does suffering cease?  

I don't know. That's not a level per se, that is something you would need to specifically train for. And even then highly doubt any human has truly stopped all suffering. People like to say such things but I have never seen such a person.

You can be highly conscious but still suffer because suffering is so baked into biology.

If you hit a guru over the head with a hammer he is gonna suffer. I don't believe him if he says he won't.

If I am high on 5-MeO-DMT and super conscious of God and you hit me over the head with a hammer, it will still hurt and that has no relation to my degree of consciousness in that moment.

I have not found a level where suffering ceases, unless you are dead.

You can probably train yourself for enduring intense pain. But this would require monumental training effort. And it still assumes you have a core foundation of good health which allows you to have such strong will. When your health fails your will will also fail.

Remember, pain is not just psychological, pain can also actually damage and ruin the body and mind. If we crack your skull open with a hammer, that's not just a negative feeling, you will lose functionality and health -- which brings its own suffering. When your brain stops working you will suffer for it for years to come.

Too often pain is reduced to mere negative feeling which is incorrect. The real problem with pain is that it usually means loss of functionality too. Like if we cut off your leg, now you will suffer not being able to walk.

Edited 19 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Adrian colby]

I’d say that’s a distinction between mental anguish and physical pain. Suffering being a result of the former but not a necessity of the later. 
 

I had one mushroom trip where I was in quite a high level of pain all over for several hours but I sat still for the whole experience and didn’t allow my mind to produce any thought or narrative. In that instance I observed and experienced the pain but was not mentally bothered by it. More fascinated at following the sensation around the body. 
 

I took that and applied if several times to small incidences of pain in my daily life and didn’t react to it. When the mental anguish was not present, the level of pain was diminished. But it’s not something I’d dedicate my life to trying to eradicate. 
 

I know the ‘suffering’ is necessary to an extent for survival cause if you didn’t have the thought to move away from what was causing the pain because it was hurting ‘you’, you probably wouldn’t last very long. So I’d keep a little bit of it but try not to allow it to extend into victimisation or wallowing for long periods of time.

 

( don’t know why I’m saying that. It’s really basic stuff for the level in this forum)

Edited 19 hours ago by Adrian colby

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Adrian colby said:

I was in quite a high level of pain all over for several hours

Not high enough.

People not apperciate how high pain goes.

Pain is kinda like consciousness. There are low forms of it and then there are insane forms of it. You don't want to know the insane forms.

Edited 19 hours ago by Leo Gura

[UnbornTao]

 

[Jodistrict]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Not high enough.

People not apperciate how high pain goes.

Pain is kinda like consciousness. There are low forms of it and then there are insane forms of it. You don't want to know the insane forms.

Shinzen would talk about  pain as a means of spirituality.  He use to teach AIDS patients how to use meditation to control pain.   Years ago, he got interested in Native American spirituality, and decided to do a sun dance.  That is where you dance for several days in the sun without food or water and then they put two knives in your breasts and hang you from a tree.  He was telling us how interesting the sensations were and that it was deeply spiritual.

[zurew]

It makes sense to say that a rat is more aware than an ant, but it wouldnt make sense to say that a rat is more or less aware than awareness itself.

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Degrees of Consciousness is NOT relative! You are absolutely more conscious than a rat. I hope.

In that particular case, the reason why it was labeled as a relative truth, is because its context sensitively true and the truth conditions could be changed. Once comparison is used,  under this usage of the term , we are talking about relative truth.

 

"When you make any argument to me, that is coming from your existing state of consciousness. Your arguments have zero validity in higher states."

That doesnt make much sense , since not all statements are indexed to a particular level/state of consciousness. And I will clarify what is meant by that since most of this is just language game and relies on you being ambigous with your language. So there is a difference between uttering a statement while being in a particular state of consciousness vs the truth value (whether the statement is true or false) of the statement is made true by a particular state/level of consciousness. Btw you have to agree with this , otherwise you refuted yourself.

So ,when you uttered the statement // Your arguments have zero validity in higher states // - is that very statement depended on/made true by a  particular state of consciousness? You are in a clear bind here, because its either the case that you have to affirm that it isn't depended on it, and by that move you give up the "all sentences are made true by a particular state of consciousness" principle or it is the case that you say "yes its depened on it" in which case you shouldnt be taken seriously, since there are states of consciousness from which your statement is possibly false.

 

Edited 19 hours ago by zurew

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

 

How many times you gonna post that?

It is false.

Edited 19 hours ago by Leo Gura

[zurew]

Absolute truth , would be a  truth that is true regardless of the level of consciousness, because its not made true by a particular level/state of consciousness.

 

[UnbornTao]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

How many timea you gonna post that?

It is false.

Pay attention, Leo. It's a different one.

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, UnbornTao said:

Pay attention, Leo. It's a different one.

Nothing Brendon says on this topic is correct. 

I know his shtick. He is a broken record.

[Adrian colby]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Not high enough.

People not apperciate how high pain goes.

Pain ia kinda like consciousness. There is low forms of it and then there are insane forms of it.

Insane forms can tip into peace if it’s sustained because the distinction disappears after a while… or you die if it’s an injury. 

intermittent and intense… nope. The contrast between the two , the presence of the distinction keeps it going as a ‘thing’. 
 

I can’t sit through intermittent and intense pains only sustained pains. I do get this ( not so much lately) but it’s like being stabbed from the tailbone up the spine like a clap of lightening. It nearly make me crash the car when it happens while I’m driving or jumping up out of my seat taking sharp breaths but after the several hour long session with sustained pain I’ve learned to stay focused through it. It helps. 

i also noticed an anticipation before it happens so I’ve caught myself doing that which has stopped it happening so much.  Strangely. If I lend my mind to it, it makes it more intense, if I don’t, if lessens. 🤔

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

Shinzen would talk about  pain as a means of spirituality.  He use to teach AIDS patients how to use meditation to control pain.   Years ago, he got interested in Native American spirituality, and decided to do a sun dance.  That is where you dance for several days in the sun without food or water and then they put two knives in your breasts and hang you from a tree.  He was telling us how interesting the sensations were and that it was deeply spiritual.

I asked Shinzen Young how he would react if his child was killed. He said he would break down in tears and grieve.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, zurew said:

Absolute truth , would be a  truth that is true regardless of the level of consciousness, because its not made true by a particular level/state of consciousness.

No, no, no.

This misses the point. This misses Consciousness.

Edited 19 hours ago by Leo Gura

[UnbornTao]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No. I am saying that everyone who thinks they are enlightened is actually self-deceived and not actually conscious of God or Consciousness.

You are hallucinating the entire domain of enlightenment, in the same way that a Christian is hallucinating all of Christianity and a Buddhist is hallucinating all of Buddhism.

None of these people really understand God.

@UnbornTao You do not understand what God is. You are not even close. I keep telling you but you refuse to listen because you have completely convinced yourself that you solved this issue. You have not. Yet you keep going on and on like a broken record, typing away the same old nondual group-think which you heard other humans say. You and Selling Platitudes By The River keep making the same mistake. You guys think you know more than me. You do not.

Why are you taking it personally? Again, when I had my 5-MeO breakthroughs, I could've come here and fooled you into believing I went through a God-realization or Awakening - and most of you would've eaten it up. But I passionately avoid doing that. I know the kind of things you guys like to hear; it would just be a matter of adopting that mental framework, position, and terminology. But I'd be describing an experience, and it wouldn't be "true." It'd have started with me fooling myself about what it is that "happened" while high.

Shulgin and Leary were both people who took a bunch of drugs. The latter earnestly tried to get God-realized, but without success - he was barking up the wrong tree. He was hoping to change his physiology and as a result of a process produce an absolute result, which is not possible.

Edited 19 hours ago by UnbornTao

[zurew]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No, no, no.

This is where hopefully your clarification comes, because I think that is how a good chunk of the "nondual" people used the term here and hence why the objections.

If by absolute truth you mean a truth that is depended on a particular state of consciousness, then that sounds like a very unique way to use the term. This is why its useful to give your semantics sometimes.

Edited 18 hours ago by zurew

[Leo Gura]

20 minutes ago, zurew said:

It makes sense to say that a rat is more aware than an ant, but it wouldnt make sense to say that a rat is more or less aware than awareness itself.

Not more aware. More Consciousness!

I am precisely saying Consciousness can have less or more Consciousness.

There is no such thing as a rat having consciousness. A rat is just Consciousness stuck in a low state. When Consciousness is not very conscious it IS a rat.

Edited 18 hours ago by Leo Gura

[UnbornTao]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Nothing Brendon says on this topic is correct. 

I know his shtick. He is a broken record.

Well, consider Brendan's point. Again, his position is based on direct consciousness, not on his experience with the substances. I think he actually tried 5Meo and said something along the lines of: "it's not it." And how could it be?

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Well, consider Brendan's point. Again, his position is based on direct consciousness, not on his experience with the substances. I think he actually tried 5Meo and said something along the lines of: "it's not it." And how could it be?

How it could be is he isn't conscious.

His retreats do not produce more or better consciousness than my methods. Not even close.

Brendon does not even understand what LOVE is because his head is so far up Ralston's ass.

You are quoting and trusting a man who does not even know what LOVE is! Get real.

Edited 18 hours ago by Leo Gura

[zurew]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This misses the point. This misses Consciousness.

26 minutes ago, zurew said:

So ,when you uttered the statement // Your arguments have zero validity in higher states // - is that very statement depended on/made true by a  particular state of consciousness? You are in a clear bind here, because its either the case that you have to affirm that it isn't depended on it, and by that move you give up the "all sentences are made true by a particular state of consciousness" principle or it is the case that you say "yes its depened on it" in which case you shouldnt be taken seriously, since there are states of consciousness from which your statement is possibly false.

We could also use the statement "There are levels of consciousness" or "Everything is consciousness" and you wouldnt want to subject those statements to a particular level/state of consciousness

Edited 18 hours ago by zurew