What’s an opinion?

[UnbornTao]

13 hours ago, Hojo said:

@UnbornTao Yes the information of opinion can differ from logical fact.

I meant that information can be about something other than opinion, but I see what you're saying here.

13 hours ago, Hojo said:

You only have to take logic as far as you want to. Your opinions don't have to be facts or logically sound. 

You use logic to come up with them but you can stop the logic at any point and the point where you do stop the logic is your opinion.

Like someone can tell you something that makes logical sense to you and you can stop the logic train right there and thats your opinion. You could keep the logic going and come to a different position and that would be your new opinion.

A persons opinion dosent have to be completely logical but you just use some logic to form an opinion. Whether its baby retard logic or well thought out dosent matter.

I don't see why it would automatically have to be an opinion. Couldn't the position you arrive at be an observation, hypothesis, educated guess, etc? You could even not make up your mind about the matter, instead deciding to leave it open. 

I'm not very lucid now 😆

Also, are we sure our focus on logic is adequate here?

13 hours ago, Hojo said:

If someone came up to you said red is wet because the sun is shining your logic could not agree with that because its nonsensical. The person could be being logical to themselves but if your logic dosent follow theirs then you cant form an opinion on it. So we must have some form of logic to form an opinion. The opinion being the logic conclusion we come too.

Fair. We can also see by your example that opinion is often a frivolous matter. Logic could still be used to correct that wrong position, or one could simply admit that there's something more to discover. 

[SOUL]

They are the minions of opining.

[Hojo]

@UnbornTao I would put opinion in a higher category as observation and hypothesis and educated guess. I think those 3 are subcategories of opinion. Like your opinion drives those 3. Or its the metaphysical end of those things. The opinion dosent exist its just what you say yes too. I say a fact is just opinions shared by multiples of beings.

Opinion and beleif are similar imo. Beleif trumps logic and facts to the subject.

Edited September 29 by Hojo

[ChrisZoZo]

21 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

So, a limit?

Well, when you have an opinion, is it absolutely infinite in all directions? Then it has it is a limit. 

[Dodo]

On 28/09/2025 at 3:23 PM, PurpleTree said:

We have opinions.

We have opinions on this.

We have opinions on that.

We have opinions about others opinions.

Hey look at me i’m so opinionated.

But what are opinions?

Imho an opinion is something you believe to be true. 

For example, in my opinion, I am a human being. But, its not only my opinion, but fact, that I am (not saying anything about that I).

[Aaron p]

Opinions are like noses, everyone's got one and they usually have a couple holes in 'em

[UnbornTao]

21 hours ago, Hojo said:

@UnbornTao I would put opinion in a higher category as observation and hypothesis and educated guess. I think those 3 are subcategories of opinion. Like your opinion drives those 3. Or its the metaphysical end of those things. The opinion dosent exist its just what you say yes too. I say a fact is just opinions shared by multiples of beings.

Opinion and beleif are similar imo. Beleif trumps logic and facts to the subject.

Bring up examples of opinion, belief, observation, and hypothesis - preferably in the same context or regarding the same subject or claim.

I'd say facts and observations are generally more reliable or accurate than merely offering an opinion. Opinion, as I currently see it (is this view itself an opinion?), is like a frivolous "commentary" on something. It might be subjective in nature. Put in its place, it is appropiate, but nothing more than that. It is not conclusive. When it comes to understanding, skill, truth, or performance, opinion is almost completely irrelevant.

For example, we make a distinction between what an opinion is, and our opinions about it.

Quote

etymology of opinion, by GPT: 

• The Latin word “opinĭo” (or opinio) meant belief, expectation, or judgment.
• This comes from “opinari”, which is a verb meaning to think, suppose, or have a belief.

Edited September 30 by UnbornTao

[Hojo]

@UnbornTaoCan you hold a fact of reality without having the same opinion on it?

All the facts of reality that you can not hold an opinion on it are subjective and cant be defined that way. Like preferred taste smell or textures.

observation and hypothesis are just facts that act the same way. 

I am not sure what kind of examples you are looking for as all these words mean the same thing (pretty much) to me.

The only thing I can think of it the pencil is brown, when I observe it I make a hypothesis that its brown based on the cones in my eye turning it brown. Therefore this makes me believe that its brown and thats my opinion. 

I can see a difference about opinion and fact that you can lie about your opinion. Generally if you lie about an opinion its cause you dont believe the 'norm' fact and just dont want to disagree. So its more malleable than a fact and trumps fact.

I would say there are no facts of life. Besides that it exists so facts are just a collection of opinions. And facts are hypothesis observation and beleifs and finally opinions people have.

Opinions are something people hold harder than facts because facts are not even theirs. Its a collective there arent facts with one person. So the opinion is something that the person is.

Edited September 30 by Hojo

[UnbornTao]

12 hours ago, Hojo said:

@UnbornTaoCan you hold a fact of reality without having the same opinion on it?

All the facts of reality that you can not hold an opinion on it are subjective and cant be defined that way. Like preferred taste smell or textures.

observation and hypothesis are just facts that act the same way. 

I am not sure what kind of examples you are looking for as all these words mean the same thing (pretty much) to me.

The only thing I can think of it the pencil is brown, when I observe it I make a hypothesis that its brown based on the cones in my eye turning it brown. Therefore this makes me believe that its brown and thats my opinion. 

I can see a difference about opinion and fact that you can lie about your opinion. Generally if you lie about an opinion its cause you dont believe the 'norm' fact and just dont want to disagree. So its more malleable than a fact and trumps fact.

I would say there are no facts of life. Besides that it exists so facts are just a collection of opinions. And facts are hypothesis observation and beleifs and finally opinions people have.

Opinions are something people hold harder than facts because facts are not even theirs. Its a collective there arent facts with one person. So the opinion is something that the person is.

Not sure how to respond.

Could it be that you're giving opinion more weight than it deserves?

If we consider the distinction between the objective and the subjective, we see that facts are, or at least can be, objective, while opinions tend to be subjective. No matter what your opinion is, it won't change "reality." Reality is independent of one's opinions. That's why we need to clarify what's what, rather than think in vague terms. A theory, observation, or hypothesis is more grounded in reality than mere preference or biased judgment. Then again, you seem to be using the term quite broadly, so that is that.

Edited October 1 by UnbornTao

[Hojo]

@UnbornTaoThink of solipsism as opinion and duality or others as a fact.

You cant get to fact (fact) without solipsism (opinion)first.

You cant have a fact with yourself. A fact isnt subjective its group think.

Edited October 1 by Hojo

[UnbornTao]

12 hours ago, Hojo said:

@UnbornTaoThink of solipsism as opinion and duality or others as a fact.

You cant get to fact (fact) without solipsism (opinion)first.

You cant have a fact with yourself. A fact isnt subjective its group think.

What's your point in bringing that up? 

You have five fingers on each hand (probably). That's not an opinion. No groupthink is required to validate it - except perhaps the bit of math learning needed so you can actually recognize and count them yourself. But in any case, it's still a fact, even when it isn't consciously recognized or thought about. It exists independently of you, whereas opinion depends on you.

You want to say that opinion comes prior to fact, but they may well be completely separate - or just different. Notice that, in essence, opining is often a secondary matter.

I'm not sure this is the most effective line of questioning, but there you go.

Edited October 1 by UnbornTao

[Hojo]

@UnbornTaoIts not my opinion that have 5 fingers and it never has been thats group think. Someone told me and i believed it. Having 5 fingers is group think. How can i come to the conclusion that I have 5 fingers on my own. 

I have 4 fingers and a thumb thats my opinion.

Edited October 1 by Hojo

[UnbornTao]

52 minutes ago, Hojo said:

@UnbornTaoIts not my opinion that have 5 fingers and it never has been thats group think. Someone told me and i believed it. Having 5 fingers is group think. How can i come to the conclusion that I have 5 fingers on my own. 

I have 4 fingers and a thumb thats my opinion.

It's not just semantics. Regardless of whatever conceptual overlay we add, there is something there that isn't subject to personal whims or belief. You can see that, no matter what is said, the condition itself remains unchanged - your "hardware" stays intact, metaphorically speaking. Call it five bananas or twenty four pencils, your body doesn't care. 

We're working on clarifying this difference - the one you seem to insist doesn't exist. For now, we're calling it fact and opinion. Put simply: an opinion is an assessment, whereas a fact "exists." It comes prior to your assessment about reality. So you needn't come to a conclusion or form an opinion, but observe what's there.

Also, groupthink isn't necessarily negative, in case that's being assumed. You couldn't be reading this now without that social dimension - culture and others contributing to your learning, directly or indirectly. I understand the desire to assert one's autonomy, but don't ignore the enormous influence the social domain has on your experience. You couldn't even be "alone" without "lack of others."

[Hojo]

@UnbornTao Its not my finger when I'm alone its me. Other people tell me its finger so we can relate. Its just me if its just me. If no one else was around I wouldn't even differentiate between me and parts of my body. I wouldn't even make up that I had fingers it would just be me. If you tried to take my finger i would say you are trying to take me which is another layer of fingers just being fingers they are more.

I'm not saying facts are life I'm saying opinions are logical conclusions.

You not being able to be alone is supporting my argument. The facts are lies,' you can be alone'(group think, you actually can't be alone) the opinions are true. I don't need any of them to exists(solipsism truth opinion). I can be alone factually and not be alone via opinion ( God is there). Opinion trumps here and everywhere.

By saying that these don't exists until someone tells you is going towards the opinion over fact argument.

The only time you can force opinions is when the person dosent have any, like a baby and force facts on them as fast as possible.

We were heavily indoctrinated into facts that aren't facts. Reality dosent have facts. Or if it does the facts must exist at all points in time in your field of view.

All facts breakdown into opinions as we don't know anything and are making everything up.

Edited October 1 by Hojo

[Schizophonia]

On 28/09/2025 at 10:07 PM, Princess Arabia said:

Every statement, every comment, every response and everything said on this forum that is a person's point of view and not factual. It also doesn't have to have been concluded because people can change their opinions at any time depending on some other thing or statement they've heard.

 

[UnbornTao]

@Hojo I lost track of what we were talking about. Your writing feels a bit opaque to me - that's just my opinion, though.

Why are you focused on what others tell you in order to discern fact from opinion? How does that connect to this discussion? 

Anyway.... after this chat, you still have five fingers on each hand, right?  I think you're being unnecessarily contrarian at times. 

18 hours ago, Hojo said:

We were heavily indoctrinated into facts that aren't facts. Reality dosent have facts. Or if it does the facts must exist at all points in time in your field of view.

We can still acknowledge the workings of certain aspects of reality, even the basic stuff everyone considers obvious. We don't want to claim everything is relative and so "anything goes."

Not exactly sure what you mean by your second sentence, but I'd say I agree for the most part.

Quote

All facts breakdown into opinions

This doesn’t sound accurate. Again, you're painting with a broad brush. Inventions like math may not be existentially or absolutely true, but in the relative sense they're quite grounded and objective - hence factual. You can't just mess around with physics, for example. Let's not relegate fact to mere imagination or arbitrariness. 

Quote

as we don't know anything and are making everything up.

Is this deeply experienced for what it is? Even if it's true, as a notion it is just a starting point. 

Not happy with this, may edit.

Edited October 2 by UnbornTao

[Hojo]

@UnbornTao Like is it a fact that there are other people when there are not other people around. Every fact relies on reality still existing as it as when you are not experiencing it. If you went for a walk alone and fell and hit your head and got amnesia of everything would all those facts you have still be facts? If you had to relearn everything those facts don't exist anymore.

I don't know if facts are real when they are not being experienced and I don't know if I have been indoctrinated into making them appear as reality. All I know is that my entire life people have been pushing me out of every individual opinion I have had. Is that a feature of reality? I do not know. I only know my opinions and the fact that people don't like them and want me to change my opinions to learn 'facts' of reality that take 2 or more people to have.

Since I can't remeber when I didnt have opinions as my opinions are me I can't know. All I know is my opinions about reality come first then facts come later. Is a fact fifine tuning of opinion or satan? 

I think you are talking from a 3rd person perspective and I am talking about the first person perspective on these things. Opinions don't exist in 3rd person only facts do. If the opinions don't line up with the already put together facts life will force the opinions out of the individual and change them. If the person refuses to change their opinion will reality change?

Physics has already been proven to be broken or incomplete as a fact. That means we don't know if the first rule of science is your opinion trumps facts.

Edited October 2 by Hojo

[UnbornTao]

@Hojo

Personal opinion is determined by you, whereas fact is not - what you feel, prefer, or believe is often irrelevant, except perhaps when it pertains to your subjective world ("I feel bored," for example.) The point is that a fact doesn't change or stop being "real" when you forget about it - you're simply ignorant of it. We don't have to be dense either: in your examples, that you fell, hit your head, and got amnesia can itself be called a fact. That you are alone may also be considered factual. It's an observation that we can agree on (even though consensus isn't the only criterion for establishing fact).

Even when alone, it's still valid to say that other people exist, though at that moment their existence may only be a concept for you.

This may help us ballpark the investigation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion

"Factual" doesn't have to mean "ultimately true," but it does require accuracy and grounding in something real - usually something objective, observable, or consistent. You don't have to solve the mysteries of the universe to know that lasagna is made with certain ingredients.

Opinion isn't an existential aspect of reality, so there's no reason to conflate the two. It's more like thinking you can fly and then being confronted with the reality of gravity. So, look at what an opinion is.

Sorry, no synonyms for 'fact' today.

Edited October 5 by UnbornTao

[Hojo]

@UnbornTao This is why I seperated opinion into solipsism and fact into duality. When I fall and hit my head facts don't exist in the universe.

I'd argue your opinion is the existential thing in reality.

Facts ( duality) dosent exist to solipsism the same way opinions don't exist in factual reality. Which is more real your personal experience or everyone else's?

If you get hit in the head and you black out does that happen in physical reality? No its your opinion that you blacked out.

Your lights going off isn't real or fact in reality.

If your lights go out in your mind thats a massive fact to you. But its not a fact its your opinion. One you are arguing is less factual than your fingers existing. You are saying your finger are a fact and I'm saying no in the same light as the lights going off in your brain and you not existing. You are still existing in physical reality with 0 personal evidence of the experience so its not a fact anymore. The fact is nothing is there.

If someone is sleeping their opinion is nothing is happening ( that's true) but in physical reality they would say you weren't sleeping you were lying down with your eyes closed faking snoring. They cant know. This is where the difference between fact and opinion lies.

The fact that you weren't in a void of nothing and other people were doing things is the lie of facts.

We take hallucinations as fact dreaming as facts sleeping as facts. None are real to the 2nd person witnessing it happen. You can read brain waves but thats not a fact either as the first person experience isn't brain waves.

If someone came up to you and said you were just laying there with your eyes closed faking snoring you would argue with them that you were sleeping. Why argue that and just not accept the fact that you were laying there with your eyes closed pretending snoring.

The answer a strong opinion on that you were in a void of nothing either dreaming or experiencing nothing.

Edited October 2 by Hojo

[UnbornTao]

On 10/2/2025 at 9:39 PM, Hojo said:

@UnbornTao This is why I seperated opinion into solipsism and fact into duality. When I fall and hit my head facts don't exist in the universe.

I'd argue your opinion is the existential thing in reality.

Facts ( duality) dosent exist to solipsism the same way opinions don't exist in factual reality. Which is more real your personal experience or everyone else's?

If you get hit in the head and you black out does that happen in physical reality? No its your opinion that you blacked out.

Your lights going off isn't real or fact in reality.

If your lights go out in your mind thats a massive fact to you. But its not a fact its your opinion. One you are arguing is less factual than your fingers existing. You are saying your finger are a fact and I'm saying no in the same light as the lights going off in your brain and you not existing. You are still existing in physical reality with 0 personal evidence of the experience so its not a fact anymore. The fact is nothing is there.

If someone is sleeping their opinion is nothing is happening ( that's true) but in physical reality they would say you weren't sleeping you were lying down with your eyes closed faking snoring. They cant know. This is where the difference between fact and opinion lies.

The fact that you weren't in a void of nothing and other people were doing things is the lie of facts.

We take hallucinations as fact dreaming as facts sleeping as facts. None are real to the 2nd person witnessing it happen. You can read brain waves but thats not a fact either as the first person experience isn't brain waves.

If someone came up to you and said you were just laying there with your eyes closed faking snoring you would argue with them that you were sleeping. Why argue that and just not accept the fact that you were laying there with your eyes closed pretending snoring.

The answer a strong opinion on that you were in a void of nothing either dreaming or experiencing nothing.

Why so abstract?

Ground your questioning: What's opinion, in your experience? 

Besides, you could clarify your take above.

Edited October 5 by UnbornTao