Why one would not defend Israel ?

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

The only problem is Israel doesn't have intent.

There is intent as in having an aim (claimed or otherwise) and then there is intent as in knowingly taking actions that lead to said outcome. They are intentionally running a war which leads to those outcomes, and they are perfectly aware of the outcomes of their intentional actions.

If you say you intend to kill the weeds in your garden using pesticides but you notice that "oops, now literally all my flowers are dying", and then you continue killing the weeds and all your flowers die. Did you intentionally kill all your flowers? Yes. Did you aim to kill your flowers? Maybe not, but you're surely stupid if your aim was not to kill the flowers.

Edited Wednesday at 03:31 PM by Carl-Richard

[zazen]

2 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

The only problem is Israel doesn't have intent.

This is especially good that you pointed this out so that you can see your own devilry.   

You see you desperately want Israel to have intent to destroy because that would validate your earlier discoveries about the goings on in the Middle East.  But the truth is your just a guy in London who probably hasn't even traveled there.  Yet you have an awful lot to say about how evil Israel is.  

The problem that remains for you is proof of intent. You won't be able to do that simply because it isn't there.  

That's the hardest thing to pin down. We've had many high level officials speak in ways that show intent to destroy, punish or settle Gaza haven't we? Or are we supposed to say they aren't in the army so it doesn't matter what their intent is..but then we can't pin down what IDF soldiers intent is either, though some of it has come clear in their videos mocking the destruction and death they cause. Also, policy gets transmitted from the leadership of which we have clearly seen not the best of intent shown.

Regardless of intent - I can say my intent is to kill the spider in my room - but I don't burn the whole house down. I can have the intent to blow out a candle and ''only target'' it but then come in with a tornado to do so blowing the entire house down - or even better I use a flamethrower which only keeps the candle flame (which poetically represents Hamas / resistance) alive. It's not enough if your intent is to narrowly target Hamas if you also don't have the intent to avoid harming innocent civilians you collectively punish. The whole place is ruined dude.

Firstly, I'm well aware of the history. Secondly, I'm gonna be that guy and say I have family and friends in Israel so may not more than most about the situation. I hate the way in which Israel exists (as an occupying force) and also what its done. But you'll be surprised to know I simultaneously actually feel sorry for the bind the Jewish people find themselves in. They've been persecuted for centuries mainly by and in the West, culminating in the worst of crimes against humanity (Holocaust) which distorted their moral compass to such a extent as to lead them to do what they needed to do, due to survival pressures - to settle a homeland against the very people they historically lived in relative peace with and sought refuge in from persecutions in Europe.

Those Palestinians suffered for the crimes of the West. And in order to maintain the state of Israel of as it is requires ongoing violence - which puts Israel in a bind which is that how do you free people who harbor that much anger for what you did to them - if you obviously aren't going anywhere and need to be in close proximity to those same people? It's a fucked up situation and Israel is in a bind of sorts due to the structural logistics of living among or next to the people they have committed those crimes too, unlike other occupiers who could retreat to a safe distance (Britain leaving Kenya or French leaving Algeria for example). The longer this goes on only compounds the issue.

And then, US and Western support which Israel relies on a having is being questioned all together as public opinion among citizens in its allied nations plummet. People are suspicious more than ever of any dual loyalty and support for Israel - support Israel very much needs. They are questioning the outsized influence Israel has on their political apparatus. Jews around the world receive increasing discrimination due to be associated with Israels actions - because Israel does what it does and exists how it exists in the name of the Jewish people.

I said that this is a political problem that doesn't have a military solution - but you double down on that and default to ''war is war'' essentially might is right. Jews of the past who were persecuted sure wouldn't want to hear that would they. Even if war is the path you want to take - that only works if that war is total ie genocide or ethnic cleansing - which the worlds norms has shifted far from. If you think Israel existing with that stain is good for it then be my guest. But the current situation of occupation is unsustainable, your solution of all out war is inhumane and will not bode well for Israel long term - and the only solution left which is a political one will require a leap of faith and trust in the process. A trust in that providing Palestinian the dignity of statehood and rights would tame their pain and any intent on revenge. That having a state introduces incentives that tame those instincts due to having something to lose which is the very state they struggled for - including their own legitimacy as a new found state in the world community.

I wrote about why Jews have unfairly been hated down the centuries here:

On 15/07/2025 at 11:17 PM, zazen said:

Like everyone else has said - it’s a confluence of factors. Jews were exiled from most economic activity so had to revert to moneylending and intellectualism / study which their religion / culture placed value on.

Those structural changes never changed until much later, which is why the persecution and pogroms kept occurring for centuries. Imagine being forced into a role, then despised for it when economic downturns inevitably come. Naturally, being in the business of money meant proximity to power - perhaps even a certain influence on power itself. Jews were a minority yet seen as being visibly powerful due to this, plus being concentrated in urban centres near wealthy elites.

They were familiar enough due to being widespread across Europe, yet distinct enough to be “other” as they maintained their identity. The historic expectation among the West was to be absorbed, not assimilated into society - the two get conflated. This counters Westerners beliefs about themselves being pluralistic and tolerant in the past. But just as the book Joshe shared on the previous page says - Jews didn’t “absorb” ie lose their identity, which is the expectation.

In the Middle East meanwhile they were structurally inside the system, rather than outside it. Even though they weren’t given equal status to the degree we speak of equality today - they were given protected status and recognised as “people of the book”. There was space for them and others. They also weren’t the only moneylenders as Islam provided alternative financial mechanisms and regulation - so couldn’t be scapegoated during hard times.

The gasoline on the fire is also theological as Judaism rejects Christ as the Messiah. Whilst theological differences are there between religions - the issue is that they were politicised and weaponised a lot more before. Medieval Christianity viewed Jews as cursed and eternally sinful for rejecting Jesus, while most of the Islamic world viewed them as mistaken cousins. Tensions still existed in the Middle East, but it rarely led to the type of exclusionary or violent pogroms like in Europe.

Another point is that they were at the edge of society in intellectual bubbles pushing novelty and new ideas. The past was way more conservative which meant being more resistant to novelty and avant gard type thinking. They were barred from universities and had their own systems of education, ethics and philosophy being built in the back drop of society.

So all this intellectual infrastructure was there - which means when modernity came and they were gradually accepted, they dominated most academic fields and were at the forefront of revolutionary thought and movements. Their over representation in all these movements easily gets conflated with them “controlling” all sides and being everywhere in society - but mostly it just them having a diversity of thought amongst themselves, and excelling in the world of thought which they had been involved in over centuries.

Today’s Zionism which started as settler colonialism and still continues till today, is obviously where things take a turn. The same pattern of ancient resentment is being triggered today but for very real injustices rather than injustices of the past that were attributed to Jews through association. It’s also easy to view Israels influence on the US today, and retroactively validate ideas about how Jews secretly controlled societies in the past. Israel’s present day behaviour isn’t helping rid these stereotypes at all and is in fact only cementing them.

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 03:02 PM by zazen

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

which puts Israel in a bind which is that how do you free people who harbor that much anger for what you did to them

They aren't resentful of what was done to them, but of being Jews in Palestine.

The Tutsis are less resentful of the Hutus than the Palestinians with the Jews, and this was a real genocide. They are coexisting and improving Ruanda now.

Crimea was populated by Tatars for centuries; Stalin deported them, then they returned, and now they're there as a minority, and they're not immolating themselves every two days.

The Sahrawis feel oppressed by Morocco, and they're not stabbing Moroccans as their primary goal in life

The Chechens were crushed by Putin, and they haven't spent 100 years educating their 3-year-olds to commit suicide. In fact they are Putin's friends now.

This is a purely religious conflict, and if you don't see it, you're blind, with all your tons of information. Why turkey or Iran and so concerned by Israel? Why they are not concerned about the tartars in Crimea, or Chechenia, or about the Sahara?

Edited Wednesday at 03:40 PM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

@zazen what would happen according you is Palestine totally stops the fight? 

[Raze]

11 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

@zazen what would happen according you is Palestine totally stops the fight? 

I am telling you this for literally the fifth time.

The west bank is controlled by the PA. The PA ceased armed resistance to Israel and hasn’t carried out an attack in over a decade.

This is what they did,

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 04:53 PM by Raze

[Inliytened1]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

 

. But the current situation of occupation is unsustainable, your solution of all out war is inhumane and will not bode well for Israel long term - and the only solution left which is a political one will require a leap of faith and trust in the process. A trust in that providing Palestinian the dignity of statehood and rights would tame their pain and any intent on revenge. That having a state introduces incentives that tame those instincts due to having something to lose which is the very state they struggled for - including their own legitimacy as a new found state in the world community.

I wrote about why Jews have unfairly been hated down the centuries here:

 

Thank you for the video but that was not the latest words from Bibi it was probably early on or at the beginning of the war.  But yes you are right.  War is destruction and not the optimal path.  But to your point - the optimal path requires one word, which you stated.  TRUST.  It all comes down to this.  Everything comes down to this one word.  And right now I'll give you this. .it does seem like the US and Israel is bullying Hamas into a forced surrender to return the hostages.   But you see the problem is we are already at war.  The war was started on Oct 7th and now it has to end.  Who is at fault is irrelevant.  So you can say genocide was the end result of total destruction but that does sorta change the definition of the word.  Because genocide requires intent.  

But It's all a mess now because of what Hamas did.  How can trust really be built now?  

Edited Wednesday at 05:00 PM by Inliytened1

[Breakingthewall]

@Raze

The West Bank has formally renounced armed struggle, but not de facto. If the Palestinians truly renounced killing in Israel, Netanyahu wouldn't win the elections, but rather the moderates who would not allow further settlement expansion.

[Raze]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Raze

The West Bank has formally renounced armed struggle, but not de facto. If the Palestinians truly renounced killing in Israel, Netanyahu wouldn't win the elections, but rather the moderates who would not allow further settlement expansion.

Wrong, settlement expansion has increased under every prime minister.

Expanding settlements actually harms security

 

[Breakingthewall]

31 minutes ago, Raze said:

Wrong, settlement expansion has increased under every prime minister.

Expanding settlements actually harms security

 

The expansion in the West Bank without compensation is a shame and a crime. I agree.

But the only way to create a Palestinian state is non violent fight . Palestinian violence is exactly what the extremist Jews want. If Palestinian are stupid, they will loose everything. 

Edited Wednesday at 05:47 PM by Breakingthewall

[Inliytened1]

25 minutes ago, Raze said:

Wrong, settlement expansion has increased under every prime minister.

Expanding settlements actually harms security

 

So settlement expansion caused an insecurity because troops weren't available to defend against Hamas terrorist attacks? OK.    You should be happy that it is a distraction.  After all you are defending the Palestinians and Hamas aren't you? 

Edited Wednesday at 05:42 PM by Inliytened1

[Inliytened1]

5 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The expansion in the West Bank without compensation is a shame and a crime. I agree

Watch the video.  It complains about Palestinians being imprisoned in the West Bank but then says expansion allowed Hamas terrorist attacks.  Obviously this was before the war. 

[Breakingthewall]

27 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Watch the video.  It complains about Palestinians being imprisoned in the West Bank but then says expansion allowed Hamas terrorist attacks.  Obviously this was before the war. 

I Stop the video when they said that in 1948 the Israelis began massacres and the expulsion of 700,000 Palestinians, without mentioning the war declared against them. I don't understand why he shows those propaganda videos for the mentally retarded. We're supposed to know how history happene, but anyway, it seems he consumes that stuff

[Inliytened1]

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I Stop the video when they said that in 1948 the Israelis began massacres and the expulsion of 700,000 Palestinians, without mentioning the war declared against them. I don't understand why he shows those propaganda videos for the mentally retarded. We're supposed to know how history happene, but anyway, it seems he consumes that stuff

Because he knows no one will watch them.  And he's way smarter than us on this.   It's his major. 

Edited Wednesday at 06:20 PM by Inliytened1

[Raze]

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I Stop the video when they said that in 1948 the Israelis began massacres and the expulsion of 700,000 Palestinians, without mentioning the war declared against them. I don't understand why he shows those propaganda videos for the mentally retarded. We're supposed to know how history happene, but anyway, it seems he consumes that stuff

If the video was for the mentally retarded, it may actually have worked on you. Because I already posted multiple times your claim about the Nakba is factually incorrect, but you are too obtuse to absorb this information despite failing to address the points made every time.

 

Edited Wednesday at 06:20 PM by Raze

[Inliytened1]

1 minute ago, Raze said:

If the video was for the mentally retarded, it may actually have worked on you. Because I already posted multiple times your claim about the Nakba is factually incorrect, but you are too obtuse to absorb this information despite failing to address the points made every time.

Relax on him.  It's obvious he touched a nerve.

[Raze]

47 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The expansion in the West Bank without compensation is a shame and a crime. I agree.

But the only way to create a Palestinian state is non violent fight . Palestinian violence is exactly what the extremist Jews want. If Palestinian are stupid, they will loose everything. 

Apparently you don’t agree since you refuse to assign blame to Israel and rationalize everything they do.

Palestinains have attempted every non violent method from peaceful protests, boycotts, diplomacy, etc. it is crushed every time by israel. The peaceful protestors are beaten or shot. The boycotts are criminalized, the diplomacy is blocked.

Yet you continue to insist this is all just a response to violence and when the violence stops it’s over. 

Edited Wednesday at 06:28 PM by Raze

[Raze]

2 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Relax on him.  It's obvious he touched a nerve.

No, it’s just annoying that I have to explain something to him for the fifth time. Literally I have told him this five times, he just ignores it, then repeats this claim again. It’s one thing if he refutes what I say with an argument, even if I disagree, but he literally acts like it was never said and just goes on with the same false belief he can’t even defend. He’s also insulted me multiple times, made false accusations and sarcasm, and acts arrogant despite being constantly debunked. 
 

150,000-300,000 Palestinians were expelled BEFORE any war was declared. This is literally a historical fact. He has been made aware of this, yet uses this excuse to ignore unrelated evidence.

Edited Wednesday at 06:25 PM by Raze

[Inliytened1]

Just now, Raze said:

No, it’s just annoying that I have to explain something to him for the fifth time. Literally I have told him this five times, he just ignores it, then repeats this claim again. It’s one thing if he refutes what I say with an argument, even if I disagree, but he literally acts like it was never said and just goes on with the same false belief he can’t even defend. He’s also insulted me multiple times and acts arrogant despite being constantly debunked. 

Welcome to the forum. You should see how i tried that in the spirituality section.

[Nivsch]

34 minutes ago, Raze said:

Palestinains have attempted every non violent method from peaceful protests, boycotts, diplomacy

All those things seemed very bad and not honest to my eyes as an Israeli when I saw and heard about them. This is the intuitive feeling I remember. And yes, boycott is exactly what will make the second side to soften and agree, very smart. They have rejected couple of serious offers including actual Israeli withdrawals in the 90s and 00s.

Edited Wednesday at 06:56 PM by Nivsch

[Breakingthewall]

32 minutes ago, Raze said:

If the video was for the mentally retarded, it may actually have worked on you. Because I already posted multiple times your claim about the Nakba is factually incorrect, but you are too obtuse to absorb this information despite failing to address the points made every time.

 

The Nakba occurred after the start of the war between Palestinians and Jews, which was later joined by a coalition of Arab countries, initiated by Palestine after rejecting the plan to partition into two states.

Read the chain of events and stop insulting, shows that you don't believe in your arguments

🔹 1. The political spark: UN Partition Plan (November 29, 1947)

The United Nations approved Resolution 181, the Partition Plan for Palestine, which proposed:

Two states —one Jewish (55 %) and one Arab (45 %).

Jerusalem under international administration.

The Jewish leadership accepted the plan (with some reservations).
The Arab and Palestinian leaders rejected it completely, calling it an injustice and colonial theft.

👉 From that moment, coexistence collapsed.

---

🔹 2. Immediate outbreak: intercommunal violence (December 1947)

The very next day, November 30, Arab militants attacked Jewish buses near Lod and Ramla—killing passengers.
Jewish militias (Haganah, Irgun) retaliated with raids on Arab villages and convoys.

Throughout December 1947 – January 1948:

Markets, houses, synagogues, and mosques were burned.

Ambushes and assassinations occurred daily.

The British, still in charge of the Mandate, did little to intervene.

👉 This phase is often called the Palestinian civil war—a war between communities inside the Mandate.

---

🔹 3. Escalation: April 1948

In March–April, Jewish forces launched Operation Nachshon to break the Arab siege of Jerusalem.

During this campaign, the Deir Yassin massacre (April 9, 1948) left about 100 Palestinian civilians dead.

Panic spread; tens of thousands fled their villages.

At the same time, the Haganah shifted from defense to offense, capturing major Arab towns (Haifa, Tiberias, Safed).

👉 By April, the local conflict had turned into full-scale war, though still without foreign armies.

---

🔹 4. The formal start: Arab invasion (May 15, 1948)

On May 14, 1948, David Ben-Gurion declared the State of Israel.
At midnight, Britain withdrew from Palestine.

On May 15, five Arab states—Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Transjordan (Jordan)—
invaded the new state from all directions.

👉 That date marks the official beginning of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War,
known in Israel as the War of Independence and among Palestinians as al-Nakba (“the Catastrophe”).

---

🔹 5. Summary timeline

Date    Event

Nov 29 1947    UN Partition Plan approved
Nov 30 1947    First Arab attacks on Jewish targets
Apr 9 1948    Deir Yassin massacre; mass flight of civilians
May 14 1948    Declaration of the State of Israel
May 15 1948    Invasion by Arab armies —official start of the war