Why one would not defend Israel ?

[Schizophonia]

I hadn't been at all interested in the conflict until now, so I checked because many people talk about genocide, but in fact there are only about 64,000 dead?

It's not a lot, especially when you consider that, as the mod @Inliytened1 said somewhere, if i remember well, Israel has big reasons to be paranoid and merciless insofar as it's a tiny country whose population has already suffered genocide (>6 million, not 64,000 over almost 3 years), has been gratuitously attacked several times by its neighbors supported by the USSR, and that Palestinian authorities are ultra antisemitic terrorists whom some dignitaries wish the Jews to be exterminated.

Indeed, there is the history of the colons and the military occupation, but it is rational given the behavior of the Palestinians and their neighbors; it seems that it is generally their fault.

If I were the head of a household and surrounded by a lot of moody neighbors, and had a history of violence, I probably would have bought guns and tried to get rid of my neighbors.

Besides that, Muslims have committed infinitely worse genocides over the last decade; when Bangladeshi independence fighters won the parliamentary elections, Pakistani authorities massacred, tortured, and raped millions of Bangladeshis.

In Indonesia, Islamists massacred all the members of the Communist Party under the pretext of an attempted coup, resulting in several hundred thousand to millions more deaths.

You've never heard of it because Muslims, and Arabs in particular, are tribalistic; they'll infiltrate everywhere in the West to talk about "children dying in Gaza." Now the entire Western left is hypnotized by the Arab diaspora's Temu-like arguments. Even YouTube is full of ads with sad music featuring skinny Gazan children to inspire pity, but you'll never hear them talk about these genocides, or simply all other conflicts in the world that make way more deads (congo, yemen...).
The left is very submissive to these things; it seems the far left tends to be anti-Western as a general rule. The radical left leader of my country fully supports Palestine and even makes YouTube videos to explain how right China is to want to invade Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet and that the contradictions are "American imperialism".

 

Edited September 11 by Schizophonia

[BlueOak]

It depends on which lens you view this with .

If it were an Israeli response to what happened, it's destructive to the future of their country. It was honestly cumbersome and odd and had a reactionary stupidity you get from theocracies. I instead expected special ops, covert actions and airstrikes for a period. @Schizophonia

If it's in the context of the world being in a cold, almost hot war, then I understand it. The methods they use are absurd and sick doesn't cover it, but I understand it. Had Hamas continued, as world tensions mount, the fight would have increasingly been in their own backyard.

Whether I like it or not, the authoritarian alignment that's happened cheapens life. That's a huge downside of the eastern shift we've all experienced.

*NB Oh and the strike on Qatar on the Hamas leadership was something I thought was a long time coming.

Edited September 11 by BlueOak

[Twentyfirst]

On 9/11/2025 at 8:11 AM, Schizophonia said:

I hadn't been at all interested in the conflict until now, so I checked because many people talk about genocide, but in fact there are only about 64,000 dead?

It's not a lot, especially when you consider that, as the mod @Inliytened1 said somewhere, if i remember well, Israel has big reasons to be paranoid and merciless insofar as it's a tiny country whose population has already suffered genocide (>6 million, not 64,000 over almost 3 years), has been gratuitously attacked several times by its neighbors supported by the USSR, and that Palestinian authorities are ultra antisemitic terrorists whom some dignitaries wish the Jews to be exterminated.

Indeed, there is the history of the colons and the military occupation, but it is rational given the behavior of the Palestinians and their neighbors; it seems that it is generally their fault.

If I were the head of a household and surrounded by a lot of moody neighbors, and had a history of violence, I probably would have bought guns and tried to get rid of my neighbors.

Besides that, Muslims have committed infinitely worse genocides over the last decade; when Bangladeshi independence fighters won the parliamentary elections, Pakistani authorities massacred, tortured, and raped millions of Bangladeshis.

In Indonesia, Islamists massacred all the members of the Communist Party under the pretext of an attempted coup, resulting in several hundred thousand to millions more deaths.

You've never heard of it because Muslims, and Arabs in particular, are tribalistic; they'll infiltrate everywhere in the West to talk about "children dying in Gaza." Now the entire Western left is hypnotized by the Arab diaspora's Temu-like arguments. Even YouTube is full of ads with sad music featuring skinny Gazan children to inspire pity, but you'll never hear them talk about these genocides, or simply all other conflicts in the world that make way more deads (congo, yemen...).
The left is very submissive to these things; it seems the far left tends to be anti-Western as a general rule. The radical left leader of my country fully supports Palestine and even makes YouTube videos to explain how right China is to want to invade Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet and that the contradictions are "American imperialism".

 

Put your money where your mouth is

Go to Brooklyn, find a ghetto Jew with a criminal record, give him your house, allowance to kill your family, and become a refugee 

If you love Israel so much then do this. Otherwise close your mouth, kid

[Schizophonia]

4 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

Put your money where your mouth is

Go to Brooklyn, find a ghetto Jew with a criminal record, give him your house, allowance to kill your family, and become a refugee 

If you love Israel so much then do this. Otherwise close your mouth, kid

I already said it somewhere but @UnbornTao deleted it; you essentially say brainrot agressive anti west propaganda here and there.

Edited September 12 by Schizophonia

[Schizophonia]

On 11/09/2025 at 8:54 AM, BlueOak said:

It depends on which lens you view this with .

If it were an Israeli response to what happened, it's destructive to the future of their country. It was honestly cumbersome and odd and had a reactionary stupidity you get from theocracies. I instead expected special ops, covert actions and airstrikes for a period. @Schizophonia

That’s already what they do, that’s why there are so few deaths in among of the most dense eras on the world.

I don’t have an opinion about Jewish nationalism but what I said is that it’s rational they want to defend themselves and destroy Hamas.

 

[thedoorsareopen]

Yeah the current situation is basically my own personal hell, as someone who grew up with an Arab dad who was violent towards me and an American mom and other Americans who fell all over themselves to not be racist against Arabs and excuse their violence.

So now we have my buddies the Arabs being seen as the victims after their egregious act on Oct 7, by my other buddies the western left.

I believe in empathy and have been liberal my whole life, but the current situation is a real breakdown of the paradox of tolerance.

The part that fucks me up the most is that the zeitgeist of music fandom currently has lots of people trying to cancel any band that does not come out as blindly pro-Palestine and anti-Israel, when the original attacks were literally perpetrated upon audience members at a music festival. Thom Yorke gave a nuanced and evenhanded statement about how both sides have a hand in this complicated conflict, and people were calling for blood. Thom fucking Yorke. If any artist has spent their career successfully critiquing the banality of evil in our society, it’s him. And yet he’s getting shit on by morons who will never be neighbors with Palestinians and have to deal with the uncomfortable realities of what it’s like when your neighbors shoot rockets at your neighborhood for decades on end, and claim they’re doing it in God’s name.

It takes two fucking brain cells to rub together to mutter “free Palestine,” but not a single person in decades of asking this have ever been able to answer me: there are 300 million Arabs. Why can’t any of this vast group of people do anything, anything at all, to help their brothers the Palestinians? If it’s so important to be free. Oh right, cuz under Arab administration they wouldn’t be free regardless.

[Sugarcoat]

I wonder the same. I simply don’t know enough to know where to stand. But I know I believe killing a bunch of innocents is never justified 

 

[NewKidOnTheBlock]

It's all BS nonsense, both sides. All sides for that matter. Just the nature, and by extention humans, doing what they know best. Ideally the best course of action would be to left them all to their own devices, just let Israel fight it out with an entire middle east since they feel so brave, but you can't do that can you, otherwise China, Russia or fucking whoever will attempt to fill up that vaccuum. It's all just a never ending game of thrones

[enchanted]

5 hours ago, NewKidOnTheBlock said:

It's all BS nonsense, both sides. All sides for that matter. Just the nature, and by extention humans, doing what they know best. Ideally the best course of action would be to left them all to their own devices, just let Israel fight it out with an entire middle east since they feel so brave, but you can't do that can you, otherwise China, Russia or fucking whoever will attempt to fill up that vaccuum. It's all just a never ending game of thrones

Exactly,  choosing defending and arguing a side has become a dysfunction of its own. It has become a litmus test of both sides to prove you are either on the left or the right. 

 

Edited September 13 by enchanted

[Topspin715]

Unless you have clearly defined rules by which you judge a party that are applied to all humans in the same situation, you are introducing significant bias in your judgment.

The international laws of war strive to create and uphold that degree of objectivity but that legal system is still relatively young in its development, very poorly enforced, and very selectively applied.

Under international humanitarian law (IHL), taking and holding hostages is prohibited and constitutes a war crime.  If an adversary commits a war crime against you, what is the proper and/or appropriate response?

These are not questions that I have the answer to, but really the right questions to be asking before you defend, excuse, or justify any behavior.

[zazen]

Felt cute, may start defending Israel now not sure..

There's a difference between defending their right to exist and defending their non-existent right to dominate.

[Basman]

The concern is with the proportionality to the Israeli response. October 7th was horrendous, but Gaza has been reduced to rubble with thousands dead. Palestinians are a rowdy bunch that celebrate death, but Israel is responsible for provoking their neighbors with expansionist settlements.

There is an argument to be made that Israels actions are at this point not really about security but about grabbing their land long-term, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to make that claim with confidence.

[Schizophonia]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

Felt cute, may start defending Israel now not sure..

There's a difference between defending their right to exist and defending their non-existent right to dominate.

You say "cute" and then you're being fooled by Temu propaganda like "Look, because of the intervention in Gaza, children are dying/suffering."

Well yes it's war there are civilians dying, what do you want to do about it

If you don't want children to die, you want Hamas to stop attacking Israel. That seems logical to me.

[Twentyfirst]

@Schizophonia Dead thread

[Inliytened1]

On 9/11/2025 at 0:11 AM, Schizophonia said:

I hadn't been at all interested in the conflict until now, so I checked because many people talk about genocide, but in fact there are only about 64,000 dead?

It's not a lot, especially when you consider that, as the mod @Inliytened1 said somewhere, if i remember well, Israel has big reasons to be paranoid and merciless insofar as it's a tiny country whose population has already suffered genocide (>6 million, not 64,000 over almost 3 years), has been gratuitously attacked several times by its neighbors supported by the USSR, and that Palestinian authorities are ultra antisemitic terrorists whom some dignitaries wish the Jews to be exterminated.

Indeed, there is the history of the colons and the military occupation, but it is rational given the behavior of the Palestinians and their neighbors; it seems that it is generally their fault.

If I were the head of a household and surrounded by a lot of moody neighbors, and had a history of violence, I probably would have bought guns and tried to get rid of my neighbors.

Besides that, Muslims have committed infinitely worse genocides over the last decade; when Bangladeshi independence fighters won the parliamentary elections, Pakistani authorities massacred, tortured, and raped millions of Bangladeshis.

In Indonesia, Islamists massacred all the members of the Communist Party under the pretext of an attempted coup, resulting in several hundred thousand to millions more deaths.

You've never heard of it because Muslims, and Arabs in particular, are tribalistic; they'll infiltrate everywhere in the West to talk about "children dying in Gaza." Now the entire Western left is hypnotized by the Arab diaspora's Temu-like arguments. Even YouTube is full of ads with sad music featuring skinny Gazan children to inspire pity, but you'll never hear them talk about these genocides, or simply all other conflicts in the world that make way more deads (congo, yemen...).
The left is very submissive to these things; it seems the far left tends to be anti-Western as a general rule. The radical left leader of my country fully supports Palestine and even makes YouTube videos to explain how right China is to want to invade Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet and that the contradictions are "American imperialism".

 

This is a very left forum and is therefore going to be bias.  This is a very difficult and nuanced situation.  In one way Israel has become a monster but in another way what would have become of them if they didn't become what they wanted to protect themselves from.  But by that same token I think there are differences between what is happening and the traditional view of genocide.  In most cases genocide assumes the accused feels their race is superior and that violence needs to be achieved to ensure inferior races are destroyed.  This isnt the case here.  The Holocaust began when Germany began their quest for world dominance.  This conflict began with Oct 7. I could go on with the differences.  I'm not absolving Israel from the atrocity but I'm also not absolving Hamas either. 

Edited September 26 by Inliytened1

[Inliytened1]

On 9/13/2025 at 3:13 AM, zazen said:

Felt cute, may start defending Israel now not sure..

There's a difference between defending their right to exist and defending their non-existent right to dominate.

I guess the right to exist means nothing.

[Inliytened1]

On 9/13/2025 at 6:10 AM, Schizophonia said:

Well yes it's war there are civilians dying, what do you want to do about it

If you don't want children to die, you want Hamas to stop attacking Israel. That seems logical to me.

It's not war to them it's oppression.  But see Israel was oppressed as well and if they didn't fight for their own country they would not exist at all.  So it's easy to demonize Israel here but it takes big picture thinking to see that it isn't Israel it's survival in general that is the devil.   Didn't Leo in one of his videos call the ego the devil.   Well there you go.  The Jews are for the first time fighting fire with fire and they get demonized for it because it's "current events".

[enchanted]

Israel is making the developed world look bad. It fell right into the trap set by Iran and Putin to distract from the Ukraine invasion. It's not a coincidence that Oct 7th is Putin's birthday. 

However on the other hand Hamas would gladly do genocide to Israel if it had the resources. Palestine is much lower on spiral dynamics, so I'm surprised by the support it gets from people. For example Queers for Palestine is strange since Palestine hates queers while Israel tolerates them. 

Edited September 27 by enchanted

[PurpleTree]

On 2025-09-13 at 2:43 AM, enchanted said:

Exactly,  choosing defending and arguing a side has become a dysfunction of its own. It has become a litmus test of both sides to prove you are either on the left or the right. 

 

I’m just defending/arguing against genocide or ethnic cleansing. Killing innocents. Grabbing more and more land (settlers) wars, killing, bloodshed. Bibi is a total psychopath imo and has an arrest warrant by the icc. The UN called it genocide.

I don’t even like Islam.

[Inliytened1]

Listen to the full speech this is Israel's side of it.  He does address the accusations of genocide.

 

Edited September 27 by Inliytened1