Sitting on benches and under trees

[UnbornTao]

Just now, PurpleTree said:

Consciousness is a dream.

It depends on the distinction you draw with that term. But it's better to ask what it actually is. You are conscious - and aware, perceiving, cognizant, attentive - not necessarily in that order. Try to sort out those distinctions or directly ask yourself: Who's being conscious? Who is this one? After that, you can ask what that is made of. Those are some of the instructions we hear.

[UnbornTao]

3 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

I just wanna clarify it’s ok if you don’t respond ofc I don’t expect it from anyone 

I see, taking preemptive action to shield yourself from disappointment.

[Sugarcoat]

8 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

I see, taking preemptive action to shield yourself from disappointment.

You’re too smart

[PurpleTree]

23 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

It depends on the distinction you draw with that term. But it's better to ask what it actually is. You are conscious - and aware, perceiving, cognizant, attentive - not necessarily in that order. Try to sort out those distinctions or directly ask yourself: Who's being conscious? Who is this one? After that, you can ask what that is made of. Those are some of the instructions we hear.

Ok well unfortunately i don’t care. But you can go to the somatic experiences thread. There i care more.

11 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

You’re too smart

Noo bro he was ignoring us, we have to stay firm.

[UnbornTao]

36 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Ok well unfortunately i don’t care. But you can go to the somatic experiences thread. There i care more.

The dream of being someone who doesn't care about consciousness may turn out to be made of consciousness! 

By the way, which thread do you mean?

Quote

Noo bro he was ignoring us, we have to stay firm.

Hey, being busy isn't the same as ignoring. You just wanted an instant answer.

Edited August 27 by UnbornTao

[PurpleTree]

11 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

The dream of being someone who doesn't care about consciousness may turn out to be made of consciousness! 

By the way, which thread do you mean?

Hey, being busy isn't the same as ignoring. You just wanted an instant answer.

 Bruh i waited by my phone for 20 hours 🥺 and refreshed every minute.

 

this

 

[Sugarcoat]

6 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

Yes well said.  Interesting that you say "seeking to end it".

I wonder how many people feel like that. I remember my ex saying once something like "I feel like I don't belong here". Can be interpreted in many ways, as looking for a place in society, where you live etc but when she said it, I had a feeling that it's more than that. Felt like a metaphysical meaning. Might be my projection, who knows. 

 

More people than we think feel weird about themselves

6 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

 

I sometimes just wonder about how the roles are played. I mean, is it necessary that things are played the way they are now? Pretending, hiding? And when I dig deeper, ask questions, have really open dialogue, there's often a lot of  resistance. I mean I get it, I have resistance too and was afraid when approaching dissolution in mediation. 

But still, if there is a deeper, genuine desire for people (or "it") to end this game, then there are better ways to do that, aren't there?

And it's funny because "it" is capable of immediate role switching, dropping the persona like a glove. I have seen it many times and here in the forum there are other stories about it. 

The vast majority feel absolutely real so to question that sounds stupid to them. Even if they consider it , it doesn’t “shake” the realness of their sense of self so they just keep going about their day. 
 

Human play is about survival, of both body and mental identity, of pleasure and avoiding pain. It’s not designed to find “the truth of reality”. 
 

I have a very very loose theory that the self is in a very very slow process of dissolution for everyone- because it requires a certain energy and activity to be maintained - it’s like law of physics how all things are slowly being destroyed (mountains for example)

So in that way we may be designed to ultimately find truth but it can take lifetimes

I think at the end of the day desire is one of the most powerful things , if you just have strong enough desire you’ll increase your chances of success a lot (in getting enlightened for example). I lack in that area I have had desire for other things in life. I don’t know how to strongly desire the wisest things to desire

Edited August 27 by Sugarcoat

[UnbornTao]

@PurpleTree Got it, thanks.

[theleelajoker]

21 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

More people than we think feel weird about themselves

The vast majority feel absolutely real so to question that sounds stupid to them. Even if they consider it , it doesn’t “shake” the realness of their sense of self so they just keep going about their day. 
 

Human play is about survival, of both body and mental identity, of pleasure and avoiding pain. It’s not designed to find “the truth of reality”. 
 

I have a very very loose theory that the self is in a very very slow process of dissolution for everyone- because it requires a certain energy and activity to be maintained - it’s like law of physics how all things are slowly being destroyed (mountains for example)

So in that way we may be designed to ultimately find truth but it can take lifetimes

I think at the end of the day desire is one of the most powerful things , if you just have strong enough desire you’ll increase your chances of success a lot (in getting enlightened for example). I lack in that area I have had desire for other things in life. I don’t know how to strongly desire the wisest things to desire

Makes sense. Interesting theory. 

It was very funny to watch a podcast with Peter Levine some days ago. He talked about this and that, showed an exercise where you say a sentence:

"I am alive and I am real" (at about 19:30)

So it's all about managing the "unrealness" of our experience? We can manage ourselves when we feel alive, when we are engaged in the drama but eventually we have to recognize that we are not? Just reflections and made up "dream material?"

Really, it's the last thing I expected from a guy that teaches somatic stuff...."I am alive and I am real". Such a weird moment when I watched this

 

[Sugarcoat]

37 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

Makes sense. Interesting theory. 

It was very funny to watch a podcast with Peter Levine some days ago. He talked about this and that, showed an exercise where you say a sentence:

"I am alive and I am real" (at about 19:30)

So it's all about managing the "unrealness" of our experience? We can manage ourselves when we feel alive, when we are engaged in the drama but eventually we have to recognize that we are not? Just reflections and made up "dream material?"

Really, it's the last thing I expected from a guy that teaches somatic stuff...."I am alive and I am real". Such a weird moment when I watched this

 

Thanks

I don’t know the context, but maybe saying “I’m alive and I am real” is supposed to be a kind of grounding technique to bring you back into the body, into the physical realness. And bring you back to yourself if you feel ungrounded.

I like non dualist Jim Newman . He speaks very smooth, spontaneous and clear. I’m almost fully sure he’s some kind of enlightened. He mentions how the self seeming real and the world seeming real is illusion 

 

[UnbornTao]

On 8/27/2025 at 7:35 AM, Sugarcoat said:

It’s not important to know the science (if there is any) of enlightenment because what u gonna do with that info? You already heard self inquiry and meditation works, so you might already be doing that.

It's not a science. On the other hand, some basic theory can be useful to orient one's mind a bit, as long as the theory is given its proper place of placeholder or possibility. Practice is ultimately what anchors your mind and attention and what produces the results, even if they are relative. Study and contemplation round out the trifecta of this endeavor - contemplation being the only main practice in this case.

Quote

It might all be relative, but so is also “contemplating/confronting oneself/ones experience”…

Everything is relative, including the practice you may take up. That said, actions still have consequences. Generally speaking, inquiring is "better" than watching TV when enlightenment is the goal. Why is that? Who knows? At the same time, while living in the relative world, it is also possible for you to apprehend your own nature. Go figure.

Quote

When you are in this relative world it seems wise to do the things that seem correlated to enlightenment (if that’s the goal) even if maybe ultimately there’s no correlation to enlightenment, or anything for that matter! But then you might as well do nothing (which might be beneficial to enlightenment lol)

For sure, and we don't want to put the responsibility out there either - in a practice, method, or another person. It must be clear from the beginning that you are the one to make the leaps in consciousness. Everything else is indirect.

Actually, I'm not entirely clear on what doing nothing would look like in practice. The more we look, the more we can find a plethora of activities that we're continuously engaged in, even if they are subtle and unrecognized. But I get your point. 

Quote

So I’m not really disagreeing with you..I agree it’s important to confront the very self you identify as because that’s the very “block”

Yes - can't transcend what you are not conscious of. 

Edited August 28 by UnbornTao

[Razard86]

4 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

More people than we think feel weird about themselves

The vast majority feel absolutely real so to question that sounds stupid to them. Even if they consider it , it doesn’t “shake” the realness of their sense of self so they just keep going about their day. 
 

Human play is about survival, of both body and mental identity, of pleasure and avoiding pain. It’s not designed to find “the truth of reality”. 
 

I have a very very loose theory that the self is in a very very slow process of dissolution for everyone- because it requires a certain energy and activity to be maintained - it’s like law of physics how all things are slowly being destroyed (mountains for example)

So in that way we may be designed to ultimately find truth but it can take lifetimes

I think at the end of the day desire is one of the most powerful things , if you just have strong enough desire you’ll increase your chances of success a lot (in getting enlightened for example). I lack in that area I have had desire for other things in life. I don’t know how to strongly desire the wisest things to desire

Good job. You understand a lot. You cannot help desiring what you desire. Because that is what you are. You can only ever be the expression that you are. I also agree with what you said about the human experience, it is not designed to awaken. Every step of my process literally was experienced as Anti-human.

Ultimately the human experience is to be respected, but the human design is for as you said, pursuit of pleasure and avoidance of pain its by design and there is wisdom in that design. But don't worry, the human experience is also designed for you to want Truth also by one mechanism, that majority of humans are dishonest and dishonesty ALWAYS has a cost because it is the source of all conflict. It's amazing how humanity forces you through their constant attempts to control you and mold you into their favored design and to hide the truth of just daily interactions that will tire you out to such an extent that a love and desire for Truth emerges.

So don't worry your fellow humans will help cultivate a greater desire for truth when they tire you out with all of their drama and projections.

Edited August 28 by Razard86

[theleelajoker]

8 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

Thanks

I don’t know the context, but maybe saying “I’m alive and I am real” is supposed to be a kind of grounding technique to bring you back into the body, into the physical realness. And bring you back to yourself if you feel ungrounded.

I like non dualist Jim Newman . He speaks very smooth, spontaneous and clear. I’m almost fully sure he’s some kind of enlightened. He mentions how the self seeming real and the world seeming real is illusion 

 

Re the "I am alive and I'm real"

--> yeah don't know enough as well, it just surprised me. Infinite words you can say for grounding and this particular sentence seemed very metaphysical for me. 

Re Jim Newman

Watched the first minutes will watch more later in the gym. I like the start and how he says "it's new, it's fresh, it's unknown, alive immediate" and how he compares it with the "I know, I am here, separation" 

Edited August 28 by theleelajoker

[theleelajoker]

5 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Good job. You understand a lot. You cannot help desiring what you desire. Because that is what you are. You can only ever be the expression that you are. I also agree with what you said about the human experience, it is not designed to awaken. Every step of my process literally was experienced as Anti-human.

Ultimately the human experience is to be respected, but the human design is for as you said, pursuit of pleasure and avoidance of pain its by design and there is wisdom in that design. But don't worry, the human experience is also designed for you to want Truth also by one mechanism, that majority of humans are dishonest and dishonesty ALWAYS has a cost because it is the source of all conflict. It's amazing how humanity forces you through their constant attempts to control you and mold you into their favored design and to hide the truth of just daily interactions that will tire you out to such an extent that a love and desire for Truth emerges.

So don't worry your fellow humans will help cultivate a greater desire for truth when they tire you out with all of their drama and projections.

Yes I agree. For me it often feels like a subconscious inner conflict that is not aware to many of us humans (including myself, I'm not immune). There's the fight to avoid pain and get pleasure, but also a desire for truth, for something more. Like a inner tug of war.

Well description IMO re the mechanisms of "tiring you out". Let's see how fast that will happen

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 hour ago, theleelajoker said:

Yes I agree. For me it often feels like a subconscious inner conflict that is not aware to many of us humans (including myself, I'm not immune). There's the fight to avoid pain and get pleasure, but also a desire for truth, for something more. Like a inner tug of war.

Well description IMO re the mechanisms of "tiring you out". Let's see how fast that will happen

Interesting. 

I tend to think humans are always seeking the sublime. There is always something within humans reaching for it - spiritual seekers reach for the sublime.

If it is not through spirituality, it is through drugs, love, thrills, altered states, children, sex - always trying to reach it, even if subconsciously. 

I think spiritual seekers are keenly aware of their appetite for the sublime in ways unconscious humans are not.

I digress... 

 

 

[UnbornTao]

On 8/27/2025 at 1:55 AM, Razard86 said:

State is just how reality is appearing to be. With that understanding everything is a state even God consciousness. You can substitute the word state with imagination if you want but it is more easily understood that drunkeness is a state or sleepiness is a state of consciousness. What's harder for a person to understand is human is a state of consciousness, a door knob is a state of consciousness, a frog is a state of consciousness,

Now in regards to holding state, the neurological and endocrine system of the human gets changed when enlightenment happens. Not only did it happen to me but various people who have experienced it have reported feeling it happen as well. For example I feel the neurons firing in my brain as my daily experience. With that said each person's enlightenment will be experienced differently.

You seem to be referring to perceptive-experience and the myriad of phenomenal (from phenomenon) possibilities within it. Shifts in mind state and the recognition of perceptive phenomena relate to experience or awareness, and consciousness isn't limited to either. Would it not follow from your sentence above that consciousness is an appearance? "God-realization is how reality is appearing to be." 

Etymology of state: "to stand."

An insight can be had, yet the side-effects of that, or of the practice undertaken, are different matters. A distinction must be made between the effects of taking psychedelic drugs, and whatever possible consciousness one might have achieved.The consciousness itself "stands alone." "What? The primacy of state, and solipsism, confirmed, then."  (This is a joke.)

Direct consciousness cannot be imagined in any way by the mind, and it does not involve process. Consciousness itself is not a process and it precedes state - perceptual experience and mind states alike.

Edited August 28 by UnbornTao

[PurpleTree]

15 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

@PurpleTree Got it, thanks.

Ok and?

Or you don’t know much or anything about the somatic energetic shifts of spirituality or whatever?

It’s fine.

 

 

[UnbornTao]

42 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Ok and?

Or you don’t know much or anything about the somatic energetic shifts of spirituality or whatever?

It’s fine.

The what?

I'll take a look at the other thread.

[Ishanga]

5 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Interesting. 

I tend to think humans are always seeking the sublime. There is always something within humans reaching for it - spiritual seekers reach for the sublime.

If it is not through spirituality, it is through drugs, love, thrills, altered states, children, sex - always trying to reach it, even if subconsciously. 

I think spiritual seekers are keenly aware of their appetite for the sublime in ways unconscious humans are not.

I digress... 

 

 

This is because only Humans can Experience the sublime or Subtle aspects of Reality, Reality goes from Subtleness to Grossness, the Absolute is the most Subtle, Physicality is the most Gross aspect of Reality, Humans have a built in desire to be more than what they are right now, whatever that is.

Right now on this Earth we have Humans representing all aspects of this, ppl living the most grossest aspect of reality, where only the physical aspects, survival aspects of Reality appeal to them, others, a very small % of Ppl live at the highest or most Subtle Aspects of Reality (see Leo and others), their actions and shared experiences reflect this,  But its all a matter of Awareness, if Your Awareness is Low then You live Survival only, Survival is about Accumulation, Gathering of Ppl, places and things, ego gratification, a feeling of Separateness and lack, if your Awareness is high level, then these things will mean little to You, you will still have to feed the body, relate to others but it doesn't rule You like it does most today...

Spirituality is about raising Awareness so that the highest Potential is within Your Experience and reflected in your Actions.

Living below Your Potential too me is the biggest problem today in the world and is tragic imo...

[Sugarcoat]

19 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

It's not a science. On the other hand, some basic theory can be useful to orient one's mind a bit, as long as the theory is given its proper place of placeholder or possibility. Practice is ultimately what anchors your mind and attention and what produces the results, even if they are relative. Study and contemplation round out the trifecta of this endeavor - contemplation being the only main practice in this case.

Everything is relative, including the practice you may take up. That said, actions still have consequences. Generally speaking, inquiring is "better" than watching TV when enlightenment is the goal. Why is that? Who knows? At the same time, while living in the relative world, it is also possible for you to apprehend your own nature. Go figure.

For sure, and we don't want to put the responsibility out there either - in a practice, method, or another person. It must be clear from the beginning that you are the one to make the leaps in consciousness. Everything else is indirect.

Actually, I'm not entirely clear on what doing nothing would look like in practice. The more we look, the more we can find a plethora of activities that we're continuously engaged in, even if they are subtle and unrecognized. But I get your point. 

Yes - can't transcend what you are not conscious of. 

I’d agree. Ill just add , theory and practice kinda intertwine when it comes to how you use your mind.
 

When we shift attention and or focus on something (for example the self, or a body sensation) I  have pondered if the mind is involved in that. One of the ways I noticed this is if I close my eyes and focus on let’s say the sensation in my feet, I almost cannot help it but to simultaneously visualize my feet in relation to me, even if it’s extremely subtle. So directing attention might be a practice- but it’s also kinda theoretical because you may be using your conceptual mind while you do it.

Also this applies to the self image (in my experience) when doing self inquiry it can be kinda self centered instead and enhance the self by focusing on it, one aspect of focus being the mind imagining what it’s focusing on: contributing to creating the very self image

Or it’s just yet another of my weird experiences 😅