Women have wildly different interests than men

[OBEler]

@Xonas Pitfall yes women are absolutely capable in academics.

Unfortunately your examples about CEOs are not really say much. Every CEO has a team around them (mostly men). A CEO can be incapable but if he listens to his team then no problem.

Of course in a crisis , companies with high risk / high rewards profile suffer more. But that doesn't make their strategy less good than companies with low risk/ low rewards because in good times these high risk companies get higher rewards. That's a typical bias to just look at a certain condition in a market. You have to look at the overall picture of course.

@Xonas Pitfall

Edited 4 hours ago by OBEler

[Alexop]

1 hour ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

This argument makes very little sense. It’d be the same as if I said, “Oh... wait until a strong army invades your country, and you'll see how little men care about video games, higher philosophy, and truth-seeking. Wait until a strong army invades your country, and you'll see how little women care about doing makeup and shopping.” No shit, haha. In such a scenario, men would likely hyper-focus on physical strength, weapons, and strategy, while women might rely on either developing strength and similar strategies themselves for survival or leveraging other strategies, such as seduction, psychological manipulation, or deceit, or depending on men for protection. When there’s war, people fall into survival strategies that are more beneficial to them, since they are desperate and need to survive. The modern world is all about making us feel safer so we can explore more and gain a higher understanding, intelligence, and diversity, which in turn elevates society further. Actualized.org would have never been able to exist in a war zone. But that’s the whole point of human evolution: you create more technology and safety nets so people can explore beyond their natural instincts and move beyond mere survival, thus expanding consciousness. No one here is denying that there are gender differences; the question is how much of them are actual and whether we are overly stereotyping things that shouldn't be stereotyped.

A good example of this is the education system. Throughout history, there was a widespread belief that women were too stupid, irrational, and incapable of serious thinking. Now, with women outperforming men in education, the narrative has shifted to, “Oh, of course! You’re just being yielding and pleasing to the teacher; that’s a ‘girl thing!’” In reality, nothing about the education system has changed over the years. This shift in narrative when it doesn’t work in men’s favor is a perfect example of how "stereotyping" can go wrong.

Ok, and how will this argument help men become better? They will read your nonsense here and then will say "aha cool" and continue their pathetic mediocre life. Dude wake up, look around, men are broken. You kids live in fantasy land.

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Alexop

[OBEler]

@Alexop this thread is supposed not to help any gender but to find out differences without judging them. Don`t impose a macho lifestyle on men who enjoy a mediocre life here or do that in another thread please.

[UnbornTao]

8 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

cannot comprehend life without a penis steering it. 

"aye aye captain!"

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Alexop said:

Ok, and how will this argument help men become better? They will read your nonsense here and then will say "aha cool" and continue their pathetic mediocre life. Dude wake up, look around, men are broken. You kids live in fantasy land.

I see you being very adamant on many threads that having an intellectual model of women being starkly different from men is somehow helpful to men.

But I find that the men who have an ideological framework that's intent on differentiating men and women in stark ways tend to understand the least about women because they're so keen on defining us as totally different from men. So, they miss the common humanity of women and tend to wrap us up into a stereotypical 2-d image, which impedes their ability to relate to women on an ordinary human-to-human basis.

And it's noticeable that these intellectual distortions and stereotypes tend to negatively impact these men's ability to have relationships and positive interactions with women.

These men also seem to struggle in other areas of life for the same reason. They tend to be the type of person who engages more in the imaginal world than in the real world... and lives in a world of constructs and concepts without applying anything (as it would shatter the ideal in their mind).

So, they also don't have success in other areas because they are so attached to their intellectual frameworks that they don't want reality to upset them.

[Joshe]

5 minutes ago, Emerald said:

They tend to be the type of person who engages more in the imaginal world than in the real world... and lives in a world of constructs and concepts without applying anything (as it would shatter the ideal in their mind).

Yes. What is the point of the inner world if not to be of use to the outer. They make ideas and theories the point of life. They don’t care if their theories prove to be useless in the world, so long as they make them feel good for being the one who constructs them. They go on adding to them and building new, useless theories. Like a child who hasn’t learned it’s time to drop childish things and step into the real world.

Interesting topic. 

[Xonas Pitfall]

@OBEler

I don’t have much information on that; I’d have to verify those statistics. Thank you for sharing! But nonetheless, as I stated, I don’t necessarily care who performs better, since my goal is just to enable smart and ambitious people (no matter their gender) to do the business and work they want to do. The reason I shared those stats was to show that women are certainly capable of excelling in both academics and business, contrary to popular belief, “red-pill” ideas that women just want to cook, clean, and do makeup, and are useless and unable to learn anything else.

The original point remains that they can be capable in both academics and business. My intention and concern with these kinds of posts is that, while it’s fine to have an understanding that genders are different, we shouldn’t overly stereotype to the point where we say things like, “Women cannot succeed in business unless there are men around”, "Women are too stupid for study, academics, logical and rational thinking."

If I evaluate the increasing number of capable women in business, academics, and education, many of whom are achieving far more than would have been believed possible in history, it becomes clear that this isn’t really a gender issue. It’s more about enabling people, regardless of gender, to go out into the world, explore, and pursue their goals. Ultimately, I just want men who want to succeed to do so, and women who want to succeed to do so as well.

Whether a man or a woman might perform better overall, I don’t really care, because people have different interests and ambitions. There are men who are so unambitious that they never want to do anything with their lives, and I’d gladly have a woman run a business she’s passionate about instead of them. Similarly, there are women who are equally unambitious or uninspired, and I’d be just as happy to have a man do the work.

I just don’t want to enable or disable anyone unnecessarily, if that makes sense, and I worry these kinds of examples and narratives do that subconsciously in our society, so I wish to correct them. Hopefully that makes sense! 

Edited 2 hours ago by Xonas Pitfall

[Alexop]

1 hour ago, OBEler said:

@Alexop this thread is supposed not to help any gender but to find out differences without judging them. Don`t impose a macho lifestyle on men who enjoy a mediocre life here or do that in another thread please.

Being mature like Deida is not being macho. By finding out differences you help them.

[theleelajoker]

21 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I see you being very adamant on many threads that having an intellectual model of women being starkly different from men is somehow helpful to men.

But I find that the men who have an ideological framework that's intent on differentiating men and women in stark ways tend to understand the least about women because they're so keen on defining us as totally different from men. So, they miss the common humanity of women and tend to wrap us up into a stereotypical 2-d image, which impedes their ability to relate to women on an ordinary human-to-human basis.

And it's noticeable that these intellectual distortions and stereotypes tend to negatively impact these men's ability to have relationships and positive interactions with women.

These men also seem to struggle in other areas of life for the same reason. They tend to be the type of person who engages more in the imaginal world than in the real world... and lives in a world of constructs and concepts without applying anything (as it would shatter the ideal in their mind).

So, they also don't have success in other areas because they are so attached to their intellectual frameworks that they don't want reality to upset them.

I find that very on point.  

It seems to me that in cases you describe, there is often also a certain struggle of power, a "us against them". Which of course creates resistance, fear etc. Alan Watts has a talk about the perception one can have,  of a "alienated from others, a threatening external world" vs.  "I feel one with it, I feel part of it"

 

[Xonas Pitfall]

1 hour ago, Alexop said:

Ok, and how will this argument help men become better? They will read your nonsense here and then will say "aha cool" and continue their pathetic mediocre life. Dude wake up, look around, men are broken. You kids live in fantasy land.

Can you help me understand what you wanted to say with this?

I’m not denying that men are struggling. Life is hard.

But, what’s your solution? Should we beat women down so men feel better about themselves? I don’t understand why my point can’t be valid while also acknowledging that men are suffering as well. In this post, I was simply acknowledging areas where women are neglected, as they also experience their own difficulties.

If the thread were about how to help men with their "mediocre" lives, I’d write different things, of course. I want to help both genders.

[Emerald]

16 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Yes. What is the point of the inner world if not to be of use to the outer. They make ideas and theories the point of life. They don’t care if their theories prove to be useless in the world, so long as they make them feel good for being the one who constructs them. They go on adding to them and building new, useless theories. Like a child who hasn’t learned it’s time to drop childish things and step into the real world.

Interesting topic. 

Yes, that's the way I see a lot of the threads on this part of the forum.

It's just a lot of intellectual theorizing about differences between men and women... and about women's nature.

And they get it so incorrect. Or the things they do get correct, they exaggerate in an extreme way to where there's a total distortion.

And half the time it's like... "Here's my overarching intellectual framework of female nature, which will guarantee that I will be able to have sex with the hottest women."

The other half the time it's like... "Here's an overarching intellectual framework of female nature to show (once and for all) that men are superior to women in every way that matters. And that means that (by virtue of being a man) I'm superior to those hot women! And reality is unjust because these women have too much power despite being inferior! So, I am a victim of society and women are to blame!"

[Alexop]

@Emerald so Leo and Deida are intellectual weirdos? 😂 The most developed people I have seen are the ones who get this topic right. The most underdeveloped men I've met are the post-modern loosy goosy ones.

You reffer to macho guys, they don't get what I or Leo or Deida say, they are just being brainwashed into "don't be a pussy" stage Red/Orange nonsense. Our take is much beyond that shit.

Anyways believe what you want, don't assume you know me.it is a tragedy that even Tier 2 leaning people still don't get this simple crucial topic.

Edited 1 hour ago by Alexop

[Xonas Pitfall]

2 minutes ago, Alexop said:

@Emerald so Leo and Deida are intellectual weirdos? 😂 The most developed people I have seen are the ones who get this topic right. The most underdeveloped men I met are the post-modern loosy goosy ones.

You reffer to macho guys, they don't get what I or Leo or Deida say, they are just being brainwashed into "don't be a pussy" stage Red/Orange nonsense. Our take is much beyond that shit.

Anyways believe what you want, don't assume you know me.it is a tragedy that even Tier 2 leaning people still don't get this simple crucial topic.

But what is your stance on this? Do you think they are intellectually inferior and should only be "in the kitchen"? What do you actually believe in? What’s the comfortable gender difference or change you’d like to see?

[Alexop]

Just now, Xonas Pitfall said:

But what is your stance on this? Do you think they are intellectually inferior and should only be "in the kitchen"? What do you actually believe in? What’s the comfortable gender difference or change you’d like to see?

No, those are your projections onto me, I never said that. We talk about men now. Men had the protectors provider role for millions of years, we have to figure out how we can forge them into maturity in our "artificial" environment we live now.

[Xonas Pitfall]

1 minute ago, Alexop said:

No, those are your projections onto me, I never said that. We talk about men now. Men had the protectors provider role for millions of years, we have to figure out how we can forge them into maturity in our "artificial" environment we live now.

No, no! Sorry, to clarify, I never implied that you think this. I was just giving a cartoonish example to understand what you actually believe in. I don’t necessarily disagree with you that men need help maturing; I just don’t understand why that involves disagreeing with what I said above.

Men can mature without that preventing women from also doing things outside traditional roles. This doesn’t have to be a mutually exclusive thing.

[Joshe]

41 minutes ago, Emerald said:

The other half the time it's like... "Here's an overarching intellectual framework of female nature to show (once and for all) that men are superior to women in every way that matters. And that means that (by virtue of being a man) I'm superior to those hot women! And reality is unjust because these women have too much power despite being inferior! So, I am a victim of society and women are to blame!"

Yeah. It's like, where's the self-awareness? If you set out on an intellectual journey that leads to your main conclusion being group A is superior or inferior to Group B... your self-awareness should kick in and be like "What is going on here?" 

Of course they can easily say "I'm just stating facts". But of course, they're taking facts and warping them to serve something else. 

"Oh, these are just the the things I found in my explorations. Totally objective and neutral, and my conclusion is that group A is superior to B." Subconsciously though, it's like "I want to not feel inferior, so let me chart a course that includes a stop at the island of plausible deniability. And when I accomplish my mission, I will store away the truths I found so that I can return to them the next time I feel inferior.". 

I"m just speculating and not ascribing this to any one individual. 

Edited 1 hour ago by Joshe

[Spiral]

I think a lot of men do not feel like it’s worth it. To do what society wants from them, to mature and contribute.

It’s a reward/effort equation that doesn’t go anywhere good. Maybe they tried, maybe someone they know got there and that ended up being discouraging.

Like for me, my father is a CEO of this company. He is miserable, always working, his wife treats him terribly. I have more of these examples in my family and some friends. I do not want to be where they are, so I do not want to follow in their footsteps.

[Alexop]

5 minutes ago, Spiral said:

I think a lot of men do not feel like it’s worth it. To do what society wants from them, to mature and contribute.

It’s a reward/effort equation that doesn’t go anywhere good. Maybe they tried, maybe someone they know got there and that ended up being discouraging.

Like for me, my father is a CEO of this company. He is miserable, always working, his wife treats him terribly. I have more of these examples in my family and some friends. I do not want to be where they are, so I do not want to follow in their footsteps.

Because they get the wrong message. "Maturing" does not mean becoming a CEO dummy and kick ass in business and dominating people or whatever. It is a much more finesse process that implies lots of emotional/social/rational/behavioural development. His wife treats him badly exactly because he hasn't developed those soft areas. Very rarely you'll meet a woman complaining about a truly mature man. Only if she is broken from factory, in which case he won't be with her, he will intuit the relationship becoming a disaster even before starting it.

[Alexop]

44 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

No, no! Sorry, to clarify, I never implied that you think this. I was just giving a cartoonish example to understand what you actually believe in. I don’t necessarily disagree with you that men need help maturing; I just don’t understand why that involves disagreeing with what I said above.

Men can mature without that preventing women from also doing things outside traditional roles. This doesn’t have to be a mutually exclusive thing.

Women can do whatever they want, I was talking about men. Women are mostly ok relative to the dark ages they live in.

In short, let's listen to Deida because I am nobody:

David Deida’s view comes from his broader idea that modern culture is stripping men of the challenges, responsibilities, and initiatory experiences that used to force them to grow into mature, grounded adults. He argues that without rites of passage, clear masculine role models, and the demand to take on real responsibility early, many men remain stuck in adolescent patterns — seeking comfort, avoiding risk, and defining themselves through distraction rather than purpose.

He also blames the modern emphasis on comfort, consumerism, and instant gratification, saying it keeps men in a state of “boyhood” where they don’t develop depth, discipline, or the ability to face discomfort head-on. According to him, this trend will only worsen as technology and societal structures make it easier to avoid the kind of real-world struggles that forge maturity.

Edited 49 minutes ago by Alexop

[Spiral]

8 minutes ago, Alexop said:

Because they get the wrong message. "Maturing" does not mean becoming a CEO dummy and kick ass in business and dominating people or whatever. It is a much more finesse process that implies lots of emotional/social/rational/behavioural development. His wife treats him badly exactly because he hasn't developed those soft areas. Very rarely you'll meet a woman complaining about a truly mature man. Only if she is broken from factory, in which case he won't be with her, he will intuit the relationship becoming a disaster even before starting it.

I do think he’s terrible with woman. And he certainly has room for growth there.

Let’s take something more normal. A house, a wife (in an moden/equal relationship) that treats them alright and kids. Perhaps unrealistic in this economy, but let’s imagine it isn’t.

In terms of tangible benefits, this doesn’t seem all that great for a lot of guys. Probably better than what they have now, sure. But it will require an enormous amount of work to get there and they are likely to fail in the end anyway.