Is Seeing an Escort an Ethical Choice? Let's Talk Honestly

[Princess Arabia]

6 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

All I said was that everyone I've seen going to escorts has been alone, and you're probably biased by your clientele.

I've seen? As a 21 year old.? What a joke. Doesn't compare to over 10yrs of escort work. 

[Schizophonia]

Just now, Princess Arabia said:

I've seen? As a 21 year old.? What a joke. Doesn't compare to over 10yrs of escort work. 

I answered this 10 times

[Princess Arabia]

Just now, Schizophonia said:

I answered this 10 times

Well try answering it 10x for 10yrs and feel how long I've been doing this. 😜

[Princess Arabia]

6 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

Don't chase? Why not I think it's shows great maturity if a women do actively express what she wants instead of acting like a teenager girl. Of course, chasing in desperate context is not good.

That's not the same as chasing a man. Ironically, it's the teenage girls that are more likely to chase a boy they like. Women can express what they want it doesn't involve chasing a man.

 

11 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

And not being too available - this is one of the greatest mindfucks I have seen with women. She's lying next to me, I can see she likes me, she even says so, I feel she loves spending time with me, I can read her body language, she wants be hold and cuddled....and then I can see her eyes narrowing. Her forehead becomes tense. Her breath changes. And then something like "I need to go, I have an appointment, I need distance etc etc" is happening 😂 I can literally see the wheely turning in her head, I can feel she's taken out of the moment, I can observe how - consciously or subconsciously - a concept, a strategy is a remembered and implemented.

Huge turnoff for me. It's the equivalent to pick up bullshit on the females site and a disqualifier for long term relationship. 

We are having a good time? You feel good? I feel good? There's no reason you need to leave except your mind telling you to not be "too available?" (In other cases, it's likely fear of intimacy). Ok stay and  let's enjoy the time together.  Nothing lasts forever. There will be enough separation because of friends, works, hobbies etc. We feel good in this moment, let's have a good time now

Yeah, this is just from selfish needs and wants and not going your way. I get it, but from a female's perspective it can detrimental to the outcome and future. Men will be in at for the moment but a female looks at the future at times because her life is at stake meaning, pregnancy, giving too much of herself to be dumped later on, risks of a lot for a woman. A lot of it is innate and not consciously thought of by the woman in the moment. Instinct. Even animals have reservations in who they screw around with. Not right or wrong, but the body's defense mechanism. You're bothered by it because it affects your wants, needs and desires. 

[theleelajoker]

6 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

Yeah, this is just from selfish needs and wants and not going your way. I get it, but from a female's perspective it can detrimental to the outcome and future. Men will be in at for the moment but a female looks at the future at times because her life is at stake meaning, pregnancy, giving too much of herself to be dumped later on, risks of a lot for a woman. A lot of it is innate and not consciously thought of by the woman in the moment. Instinct. Even animals have reservations in who they screw around with. Not right or wrong, but the body's defense mechanism. You're bothered by it because it affects your wants, needs and desires. 

Definitely there's part of me that simply doesn't like things going my way

But it's too dramatic the way you describe it IMO. And instincts are one thing, but modern society is not the same as animal life. It's about balancing the animal instincts with a certain awareness about what is possible now. Life allows us to be present and have a eye on the future at the same time.

Rhetoric question: How many men have you been with (out of professional life) and how often did you get pregnant? Not everyone wants children, and certainly not at every life stage. It's too simple to put everything on pregnancy + everyone can be dumped by everybody any time, there's no guarantee, you have to take some risk in life. Plus, you have an influence re how successful the relationship will be 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by theleelajoker

[Princess Arabia]

8 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

Definitely there's part of me that simply doesn't like things going my way

But it's too dramatic the way you describe it IMO. And instincts are one thing, but modern society is not the same as animal life. It's about balancing the animal instincts with a certain awareness about what is possible now. Life allows us to be present and have a eye on the future at the same time.

How many men have you been with (out of professional life) and how often did you get pregnant? Not everyone wants children, and certainly not at every life stage. It's too simple to put everything on pregnancy + everyone can be dumped by everybody any time, there's no guarantee, you have to take some risk in life. Plus, you have an influence re how successful the relationship will be 

 

OK but a lot of this isn't on a conscious level. The pregnancy thing, isn't like she's actually reasoning this out to herself at the time, it's done on instinct. I left out a few factors too, the fact of some men leaving after sexual encounters with women and never wanting to see them again (it happens a lot), being thought of as loose and slutty (it happens a lot), even today in a thread someone called women who gawked at attractive men loose. So we have to contend with a lot of emotional stuff when we sleep with men. For men, it's a triumph and a score, not the same for women.

Edited 8 hours ago by Princess Arabia

[theleelajoker]

5 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

OK but a lot of this isn't on a conscious level. The pregnancy thing, isn't like she's actually reasoning this out to herself at the time, it's done on instinct. I left out a few factors too, the fact of some men leaving after sexual encounters with women and never wanting to see them again (it happens a lot), being thought of as loose and slutty (it happens a lot), even today in a thread someone called women who gawked at attractive men loose. So we have to contend with a lot of emotional stuff when we sleep with men. For men, it's a triumph and a score, not the same for women.

Ok get it. No doubt lots of emotions and can't know how it for women obviously. I can only share my observations and interpretations. 

And in this context then also important to remember what you mentioned before - recognizing and showing gratitude when guys treat you well. And gratitude just means for me not to project negative expectations and ideas about him leaving, it's only about sex for him, he's not serious, he doesn't want to see me again etc on the man.

That's it, just don't be in your thoughts & fears but give it a fair chance. 

[Princess Arabia]

1 minute ago, theleelajoker said:

Ok get it. No doubt lots of emotions and can't know how it for women obviously. I can only share my observations and interpretations. 

And in this context then also important to remember what you mentioned before - recognizing and showing gratitude when guys treat you well. And gratitude just means for me not to project negative expectations and ideas about him leaving, it's only about sex for him, he's not serious, he doesn't want to see me again etc on the man.

That's it, just don't be in your thoughts & fears but give it a fair chance. 

I agree. Sometimes, she just has to feel comfortable; and also, remember that not all females, as I'm sure you're aware of already, don't react the same. What you've described earlier I don't think is much of a general norm with women. It's usually before they get that far and after a certain place, they've already decided they're being with you already. A guy usually has to fuck that up real bad if she's already in the bed with you and willingly for her to want to get up and leave.

[theleelajoker]

33 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

I agree. Sometimes, she just has to feel comfortable; and also, remember that not all females, as I'm sure you're aware of already, don't react the same. What you've described earlier I don't think is much of a general norm with women. It's usually before they get that far and after a certain place, they've already decided they're being with you already. A guy usually has to fuck that up real bad if she's already in the bed with you and willingly for her to want to get up and leave.

Ah misunderstanding

No I don't remember that sth like that ever occurred. Definitely not the norm. When it gets that far you vibed together, she feels safe and comfortable, and both just enjoy the experience.

What I'm taking about is what happens afterwards. You meet another time, and in my perspective everything is fine. I'm the same guy from a few days ago, and she's the same.

But the wheels in the mind start working and  I (believe) I can see how suddenly there is contraction in interactions, Iess freedom, more thinking, more fear. But it's not about me being a threat to her - she already been with me so there is a level of trust established.  And she decided to meet again, so there is at least some interest, some attraction.

But there is an inner conflict. There is doubt, fear, a signal that seems to tell "get out of here as fast as you can". And this is what confuses me because it has IMO NOTHING to do with the present moment. It's all projection on me,  personal fears, thoughts about future or some strategy how to handle men and how to make them do sth.

And all I think is: Ok just stay, let's go for a drink, a walk, a snack, whatever, come back to the present moment and you will see that you're fine. It's all good and every part in your body except for this signal shows that you subconsciously know that all is fine. All you need to do is not make up an artificial reason to leave.

Again, this is not what happens every time. Many women, many situations, many different patterns. 

But I have seen it myself a couple of times and I have been told stories where I (believe to) recognize this pattern, by my female friends or when my gf talked about her female friends. They then tell some strange reasons why they could not spent more time with this guy and don't see that actually it's just this fear they create themselves by not being present 

Edited 7 hours ago by theleelajoker

[Princess Arabia]

10 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

Ah misunderstanding

No I don't remember that sth like that ever occurred. Definitely not the norm. When it gets that far you vibed together, she feels safe and comfortable, and both just enjoy the experience.

What I'm taking about is what happens afterwards. You meet another time, and in my perspective everything is fine. I'm the same guy from a few days ago, and she's the same.

But the wheels in the mind start working and  I (believe) I can see how suddenly there is contraction in interactions, Iess freedom, more thinking, more fear. But it's not about me being a threat to her - she already been with me so there is a level of trust established.  And she decided to meet again, so there is at least some interest, some attraction.

But there is an inner conflict. There is doubt, fear, a signal that seems to tell "get out of here as fast as you can". And this is what confuses me because it has IMO NOTHING to do with the present moment. It's all projection on me,  personal fears, thoughts about future or some strategy how to handle men and how to make them do sth.

And all I think is: Ok just stay, let's go for a drink, a walk, a snack, whatever, come back to the present moment and you will see that you're fine. It's all good and every part in your body except for this signal shows that you subconsciously know that all is fine. All you need to do is not make up an artificial reason to leave.

Again, this is not what happens every time. Many women, many situations, many different patterns. 

But I have seen it myself a couple of times and I have been told stories where I (believe to) recognize this pattern, by my female friends or when my gf talked about her female friends. They then tell some strange reasons why they could not spent more time with this guy and don't see that actually it's just this fear they create themselves by not being present 

Seems like you're assuming a lot and doing the blame game. I can't say for sure what's going on as I'm not there and don't know enough of the circumstances to make a fair analysis and judgment, but saying she needs to be in the present, and as a spiritualist you already know there's nothing but and she is in the present because that's all there is, but that's not the point and I don't want to turn this into some spiritual honky donky convo. It also seems you haven't come to grips that a woman has the right and with no reason or no excuse to change her mind and she was probably freely expressing that right.

Anyway, i do understand what you're saying and that's why it's best for a man to work towards securing personal committed relationships so you don't have that problem or on the flip side expect the unexpected if you're not committed and understand she can change her mind at anytime.

[theleelajoker]

28 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Seems like you're assuming a lot and doing the blame game. I can't say for sure what's going on as I'm not there and don't know enough of the circumstances to make a fair analysis and judgment, but saying she needs to be in the present, and as a spiritualist you already know there's nothing but and she is in the present because that's all there is, but that's not the point and I don't want to turn this into some spiritual honky donky convo. It also seems you haven't come to grips that a woman has the right and with no reason or no excuse to change her mind and she was probably freely expressing that right.

Anyway, i do understand what you're saying and that's why it's best for a man to work towards securing personal committed relationships so you don't have that problem or on the flip side expect the unexpected if you're not committed and understand she can change her mind at anytime.

Again I think there is a misunderstanding.

First, change of mind is one thing. What I mean is a that I get from the other person a sense of being torn inside.

Once I know the baseline of a person, it's relatively easy to feel if a person is 100% behind some actions or if there is inner conflict. Choice of words, talking speed, tone of words, eyes, body language.

Are there assumptions I take? Sometimes more, sometimes less. But massive amount of hypothesis testing in professional and private life give enough data to know I'm far more often right then wrong. 

And it seems this inner conflict mentioned above can be solved (or greatly reduced) by becoming more present - unfiltered feeling, seeing, sensing and interacting with what is around you right now - instead continuing the past by projecting past experiences on the present surrounding. 

Second: it's in the context of dating, but I have the same impression with men. Just not with dating because I'm hetero.

And third, regarding the blame game: For one, every experience takes two to dance, right? So I wonder if I could do, or not do something different, also I ask sometimes to learn. Don't know what I don't know. 

And well, everyone is a reflection of me, too. That's why I believe to see the mechanism so clearly. I still experience it too sometimes, just different, in different situations. So I wonder sometime what would happen if I was present all the time and if my life was never full of inner conflict, if I never carried the past into the present, or never think about the future. Would such interactions like the one im describing disappear from my field of awareness? Don't know yet but I m getting closer to finding out.

Edited 7 hours ago by theleelajoker

[Princess Arabia]

12 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

Again I think there is a misunderstanding.

First, change of mind is one thing. What I mean is a that I get from the other person a sense of being torn inside.

Once I know the baseline of a person, it's relatively easy to feel if a person is 100% behind some actions or if there is inner conflict. Choice of words, talking speed, tone of words, eyes, body language.

Are there assumptions I take? Sometimes more, sometimes less. But massive amount of hypothesis testing in professional and private life give enough data to know I'm far more often right then wrong. 

And it seems this inner conflict mentioned above can be solved (or greatly reduced) by becoming more present - unfiltered feeling, seeing, sensing and interacting with what is around you right now - instead continuing the past by projecting past experiences on the present surrounding. 

Second: it's in the context of dating, but I have the same impression with men. Just not with dating because I'm hetero.

And third, regarding the blame game: For one, every experience takes two to dance, right? So I wonder if I could do, or not do something different, also I ask sometimes to learn. Don't know what I don't know. 

And well, everyone is a reflection of me, too. That's why I believe to see the mechanism so clearly. I still experience it too sometimes, just different, in different situations. So I wonder sometime what would happen if I was present all the time and if my life was never full of inner conflict, if I never carried the past into the present, or never think about the future. Would such interactions like the one im describing disappear from my field of awareness? Don't know yet but I m getting closer to finding out.

OK, plus I forgot you said you already been with her and it wasn't the first time. 

Somehow I don't think one has to do with the other regarding you not being present so you attract that in your field of awareness, but hey, never know with this weirdo thing called life. 

[theleelajoker]

2 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

OK, plus I forgot you said you already been with her and it wasn't the first time. 

Somehow I don't think one has to do with the other regarding you not being present so you attract that in your field of awareness, but hey, never know with this weirdo thing called life. 

Yeah. Don't know either. 

Weird, funny, mysterious, entertaining, frustrating and wonderful amazing thing, this life stuff. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@theleelajoker are you sure you just aren't feeling when someone wishes to attend another need, but agreeableness and conscientiousness is getting in the way? This is super common with women.

'I'm enjoying myself but I want to do x,y,z now, but I don't want to make this person feel rejected or pushed away. How can I express my needs without hurting them or offending?' 

There's the friction and hesitation you read in their expression and body language. 

Not sure, I could be wrong - you seem to be the type to intuite body language tone and expression in a razor sharp way. I do this too (I could be projecting!) and so when words don't match to body language I am suspicious. The error I make is when I attribute some duplicity going on when it is literally the person unsure how to candidly assert themselves for fear of offense.

Women experience more anxiety typically than men, and high contentiousness will drive them to cut short an experience to avoid the anxiety of not doing something they are obliged to. Men as well, but women typically experience higher anxiety there