Anti human spirituality

[Breakingthewall]

7 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

There is only one helpful illusion and that is the one that rolls back illusions. All I see is unreal, that's called forgiveness. This opens the door to the real.

Shortcuts doesn't work, forgiveness is nothing if you don't understand how you are closing. The path is not simple, success is not guaranteed 

[gettoefl]

17 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Shortcuts doesn't work, forgiveness is nothing if you don't understand how you are closing. The path is not simple, success is not guaranteed 

Sure its not simple. We all want to stay here. Like St Augustine says. give me chastity Lord but only I bang my current squeeze for a while. Forgiveness has been corrupted as a term and so it is nothing to those who don't understand that it undoes everything that is false leaving only what is true. 

There are divine thoughts and ego thoughts. One is, this person is cool and the other is everyone is cool. Just live as God does.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Breakingthewall

Sure I could be wrong. 

I have seen that documentary. 

My wider point is that you are the only one who doesn't like/agree with no-self/realisation. It's a core part of spirituality. You can find it here, in other practices.

It is only you who does not agree. 

So I am more inclined to think you just haven't realised this yet 

[Breakingthewall]

7 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@Breakingthewall

Sure I could be wrong. 

I have seen that documentary. 

My wider point is that you are the only one who doesn't like/agree with no-self/realisation. It's a core part of spirituality. You can find it here, in other practices.

It is only you who does not agree. 

So I am more inclined to think you just haven't realised this yet 

What means exactly that the self is illusory? I gave you 3 examples in the other post, the doctor, the accident and the tiger. Where is the difference? 

For me it's clear that there is no difference, the tiger is same real than the news of the doctor, then, why one is real and the other illusion? 

The example of the doctor is just an example, a new that is going to create a stable vibration of fear. Another reason could be that your mother didn't love you or anything. That creates a stable vibrational structure that is as real as a tiger. If the self is illusory, the tiger also. 

Just tell me your perspective, without entering if I'm this or that

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Identification with thoughts.

Identification with the thought process produces assumptions that one is the thinker producing thought, and one watches these assumptions and thoughts so intently that it takes that to be the reality of who/what they are. But this is false. 

It is like the ocean mistaking itself as a wave. 

No-self isn't about the body being illusory. It's about who you (so to speak) think you 'are'. All the thinking of who you are generated in the social domain (as an example) is usually the biggest false self there is. No self is very grounded within experience, sensation, feeling.

And this self is like a dirty pair of specticles obscuring your vision - obscuring true experience and being. Take the specticles off = true being, experience. Clarity. Take the specticles off = no self. The 'specticles' are what you think you are. Metaphorically speaking.

Edited August 9 by Natasha Tori Maru

[Breakingthewall]

11 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Identification with thoughts.

Identification with the thought process produces assumptions that one is the thinker producing thought, and one watches these assumptions and thoughts so intently that it takes that to be the reality of who/what they are. But this is false. 

It is like the ocean mistaking itself as a wave. 

No-self isn't about the body being illusory. It's about who you (so to speak) think you 'are'. All the thinking of who you are generated in the social domain (as an example) is usually the biggest false self there is. No self is very grounded within experience, sensation, feeling.

And this self is like a dirty pair of specticles obscuring your vision - obscuring true experience and being. Take the specticles off = true being, experience. Clarity. Take the specticles off = no self. The 'specticles' are what you think you are. Metaphorically speaking.

Ok that's true but that's only the superficial layer of the self.

If I educate a kid in fear and doubt, for example, the fear and doubt settle within him; he is that, it merge with his body. They are in his posture, in his gaze, in every micro-movement he makes; every time he speaks, in his voice, intonation, rhythm, there is fear and doubt.

It's energetically inscribed in their being. So, if that kid, as an adult, manages to stop thinking with meditation techniques, he will be silent, but fear and doubt will continue to exist in his energetic system. As soon as a psychological process begins, for example, a girl on the bus says "hello" to him, a vibration of fear and doubt will occur in him; he will be his nature, without the need for thought or identification.

Edited August 9 by Breakingthewall

[Natasha Tori Maru]

8 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Ok that's true but that's only the superficial layer of the self.

It's the core of self. It is what most people perceive as more real than this reality. So respectfully disagree. It is not superficial to my understanding. Core 

8 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's energetically inscribed in their being. So, if that kid, as an adult, manages to stop thinking with meditation techniques, he will be silent, but fear and doubt will continue to exist in his energetic system. As soon as a psychological process begins, for example, a girl on the bus says "hello" to him, a vibration of fear and doubt will occur in him; he will be his nature, without the need for thought or identification.

1) energetically inscribed into their being = bad habit of thinking certain things. You think the thought. Do you think thoughts just 'happen' like they 'fall' on you? Who is doing the thinking? It's just a pattern of had habitual thoughts. That is at the base of this energy thing you are talking about. That is at the core of how to stop the issue. Realise the thoughts are doing it, and work to adjust your perspective and context.

2) meditation alone won't stop the 'energy structure'. But halting the thoughts will show you that it is you causing the suffering and blocking your access to true spirituality. 

Again, to clarify - do you believe thoughts just 'befall' you? Just 'happen'? You can't help it? Genuinely - thoughts don't just happen. It is you (so to speak) that is doing it. You are thinking stuff that causes issues. You aren't a victim of the thoughts. They aren't evil spirits coming externally. Honestly have you had this realisation? If you haven't that's a big next step on your spiritual journey 

I agree that you can frame it as an energy structure, it's just that I am unsure if you see the cause, effect and solution. It is a complicated made up concept to describe the simple act of thought cessation and realisation of effects.

Edited August 9 by Natasha Tori Maru

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Also to be clear about the above - do you consider that philosophy 'stop thoughts to cease suffering, open spiritual truth' to be anti-human spirituality? 

I still don't quite grasp your definition of 'anti-human spirituality', but only because of your style of expression. 

Can you summarise in one sentence? 

[Breakingthewall]

6 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

still don't quite grasp your definition of 'anti-human spirituality', but only because of your style of expression. 

It's the spirituality that assume that the self is just a thought. 

7 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

But halting the thoughts will show you that it is you causing the suffering and blocking your access to true spirituality

The thoughts are a manifestation of the self. The self is a real energetic structure with genetic foundations that develops throughout life. Since I was about 8 years old, I realized I had to overcome my fear and strive for openness. I've acted accordingly as much as possible, so I more or less understand how it works.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

14 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The self is a real energetic structure with genetic foundations

No worries - agree to disagree.

The above is an illusion.

Enjoy your journey!

[Breakingthewall]

48 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

No worries - agree to disagree.

The above is an illusion.

Enjoy your journey!

Really you believe that? Well, many does. You will see that it's deeper than an habit. This spirituality never works, because deny the human nature as illusion. Sounds seductive and simple, but things are not simple 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Really you believe that? 

No - I do not speak from belief.

I know.

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

No - I do not speak from belief.

I know.

But there are real neurological pathways. For example, imagine you have a 4-year-old son and he's tortured in front of you. Could you choose what to feel, whether to suffer or not?

[gettoefl]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

But there are real neurological pathways. For example, imagine you have a 4-year-old son and he's tortured in front of you. Could you choose what to feel, whether to suffer or not?

Nothing real can be threatened.

Nothing unreal exists.

Herein lies the peace of God.

-ACIM

[Breakingthewall]

37 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

Nothing real can be threatened.

Nothing unreal exists.

Herein lies the peace of God.

-ACIM

You can call it real or unreal or whatever, but the question was if you would suffer if your 5 years old  kid is tortured in front of you or not. If the question is yes, why?

[gettoefl]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

You can call it real or unreal or whatever, but the question was if you would suffer if your 5 years old  kid is tortured in front of you or not. If the question is yes, why?

Families are what upend the path which is why I decline. You are my family now.

[Human Mint]

I have a question for you guys, do you think No-Self realization is the same as God realization? Do you view it as the same?

Edited August 10 by Human Mint

[Breakingthewall]

Just now, gettoefl said:

Families are what upend the path which is why I decline. You are my family now.

Then none of you can answer the question because you need to believe that the self is an illusion. 

 

[Breakingthewall]

17 minutes ago, Human Mint said:

I have a question for you guys, do you think No-Self realization is the same as God realization?

The realization of no-self does not mean that the self does not exist, but rather that reality appears as a perceiving self. All of this is the flow of reality taking the form of a static center that receives a perception. Both that center and the perception are dynamic forms of the flow of reality. The external and the internal blend, and the center ceases to be the center. Limits dissolve, and you are one with the flow, or rather, you are the flow. Then your nature manifests; it is limitless, absolute potential. You recognize yourself as what you always are. What recognizes is the self, or the reality in the form of the self. Without self, there is no recognition, no God realization, or anything that remains recorded.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

12 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

But there are real neurological pathways. For example, imagine you have a 4-year-old son and he's tortured in front of you. Could you choose what to feel, whether to suffer or not?

The idea of a fixed, independent, separate “me” is a mental construction. Not an actual, solid thing.

There are real neurological pathways. As per your example, imagine you have a 4-year-old son and he's tortured in front of you. Could you choose what to feel, whether to suffer or not? 

Even if the “self” is ultimately an illusion, that illusion still functions. And that function has real consequences. Perception arises through raw data: movement, visuals, sounds. Then interpretation happens through the self: 'My son tortured, this shouldn't be happening. I am powerless. This means I have failed' 

Notice all of that has the narrative 'I'. This narrative self turns pain into suffering. Then, neural pathways get activated once the self has 'kicked in' which are hard wired - but notice they won't just go off by themselves - they are activated through your identification with the event.

So the illusion reacts as if it is real. Even though the 'self' isn't a permanent entity - it's a process and functions as if it is real.

So you see the 'No-Self' but still the 'suffering' - it is a paradox. There is no solid self - but the illusion of one runs the show until it is clearly seen AND no longer believed in. Until you realise this, it feels real. Reacts as if it were real. Causes suffering as if it were real.

Self is a process, not a thing. So even without a real self the system behaves as if there is one.

That is - until deeply seen through.

The above is what I suspect you haven't 'seen' through... yet.

So to apply this in a non-dual way without the self narrative: The son is tortured - now what? Perception still happens, you see, hear, senses function as per normal. There isn't an escape - non dual (no-self) isn't a dissociation. Pain arises within but its not 'yours' - grief agony, helplessness. These all come up fully, even MORE vividly because there is no resistance. There is no resistance because there isn't the 'self thoughts' of a narrative looping. So the mind isn't saying 'Why is this happening to me? I cannot survive this' etc etc. The suffering is pure sensation without any identity encapsulating it. So because there is no identification there is no added suffering. When the self is present you have psychological torment 'My son' 'My failure'. In the no-self mind there is just pain, grief shaking etc but no one there suffering. So you see, this is the extra layer of suffering, on top of the already unpleasant experience? That is the unnecessary suffering of the self that is generated through thoughts.

Now in the above compassion still flows - but non-duality does not shut down the heart, rather it OPENS it. Without an ego or 'self' there to protect itself the raw compassion felt can move to act, protect, grieve, and love. It is life expressing itself even in the horror. So no-self is not anti-human spirituality. It enhances all feeling and brings you closer to the raw truth of it. And this has been what I have experienced.

Think of electricity, lighting vs a wire: 

 - In ego, pain travels through the wire of self, burning YOU. The wire 'self' causes resistance and gets burned - suffering.

 - In no self (nonduality) lighting strikes but there is no wire, so nothing gets scorched. Lighting still happens though.

So no-self means you feel MORE because the heart isn't defended. But suffer less because no identification with thought.