Green’s problem is that they scapegoat society instead of blaming reality

[Ulax]

Many Greens loves to complain about a society and all the dysfunction that society brings about.

However, they scapegoat society by attributing too much blame to it when it is not the real cause for problems.

The real cause of human problems is reality. All political problems are really existential problems. I use existential and reality interchangeably.

I say this in the sense that society is just a collective survival response to reality. And reality itself dictates how that collective survival response manifests over time.

So when a green complains about how society causes people to be marginalised they are forgetting that the real cause is reality. Reality is causing people to be marginalised. Because reality causes a collective survival response to be adopted that leads to marginalisation at that time.

[Joshe]

By that logic, we can say that when ANY human at ANY level complains, they are forgetting that it couldn’t be any other way, including your complaint about green right now. 

Once we realize reality couldn’t be any other way, what are we to do with that? What do you do with it? Do you throw your hands up or press on for improvement? 

Is it your position that identifying problems and solutions is futile? Or simply it’s more mature(ego juice superior) to recognize the inevitability of reality, and only then press for change once that is acknowledged?

It’s so easy to find blind spots in worldviews, but what is even the point of this? For me, it’s to understand human psychology. But once the blind spots are identified and the mechanisms known, then what? Like, to me, it doesn’t make sense that people are still posting examples of stage orange and green yellow mega threads because how many examples do you need to understand the blind spots, self-deceptions, and biases common to each level? How long must we stare at the same blind spot? What is this fixation really about? This is a dangerous thread to pull on for many egos here, including those thought to be highly developed. 

For many, it’s about self-esteem. Placing oneself higher than others. Being the one that can see. The special one. Because if there’s no practical benefit in returning to an assessment, why would one return to it a thousand times? The answer is ego juice. 

Edited July 5 by Joshe

[Emerald]

19 minutes ago, Joshe said:

By that logic, we can say that when ANY human at ANY level complains, they are forgetting that it couldn’t be any other way, including your complaint about green right now. 

Once we realize reality couldn’t be any other way, what are we to do with that? What do you do with it? Do you throw your hands up or press on for improvement? 

Is it your position that identifying problems and solutions is futile? Or simply it’s more mature(ego juice superior) to recognize the inevitability of reality, and only then press for change once that is acknowledged?

It’s so easy to find blind spots in worldviews, but what is even the point of this? For me, it’s to understand human psychology. But once the blind spots are identified and the mechanisms known, then what? Like, to me, it doesn’t make sense that people are still posting examples of stage orange and green yellow mega threads because how many examples do you need to understand the blind spots, self-deceptions, and biases common to each level? How long must we stare at the same blind spot? What is this fixation really about? This is a dangerous thread to pull on for many egos here, including those thought to be highly developed. 

For many, it’s about self-esteem. Placing oneself higher than others. Being the one that can see. The special one. Because if there’s no practical benefit in returning to an assessment, why would one return to it a thousand times? The answer is ego juice. 

100%

[aurum]

@Ulax well said. 

Green does not understand freedom, oppression or emergence.

[Hardkill]

@Ulax You’re right about how idealistic and naive Green can be.

Though we need a healthy amount of green to keep pushing societies towards greater progress.

What do you suggest those in stage Green should do?

[UnbornTao]

It occurred to me to share this quote, not sure why: 

Quote

"All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone."

 

Edited July 5 by UnbornTao

[Sugarcoat]

I agree with this on a very fundamental level. Like I’m not scared of people, I’m scared of reality, infinity, all the horror it can possibly create and does create. Human is a particular form that manifests in particular ways

But then on another level, I don’t see this as excuse to be passive. At the base a human is just reality in motion, and it’s gonna be how it is, but what’s included in this manifestation of reality is the possibility for the human to change. And I think that’s what we should focus on. Us humans have one problem and that is suffering. It’s a commonality for all of us in society. Our focus should be how can we reduce suffering for all. Even if that means changing our very relationship to suffering and even embracing it, if that counterintuitively relieves us from it. 

[Ulax]

On 04/07/2025 at 10:18 PM, Joshe said:

By that logic, we can say that when ANY human at ANY level complains, they are forgetting that it couldn’t be any other way, including your complaint about green right now. 
 

I would agree that all complaints forget that it couldn’t be any other way. Except I am not complaining on this post. Im just pointing out inaccuracies I didn’t claim things ought to be different. So my argument was just descriptively I didn’t make an evaluative (judging of better/ worse) judgment of the scapegoating worldview. 

The reason I believe that all complaints are out of topic with reality is the following. I believe that every change in reality occurs on the basis of cause and effect relationships. So reality could have never occurred differently than it did. So if someone complains in the sense of blaming some subject/ object or set of them for how reality unfolds then they are being too some degree inaccurate  and scapegoating that subject/ object. If someone complains in the sense of saying “it would have been better if x or y happened”. For example, it would have been better if slavery ended sooner. Then I am not saying that is necessarily inaccurate or immature to say.
 

Once we realize reality couldn’t be any other way, what are we to do with that? What do you do with it? Do you throw your hands up or press on for improvement? 

I’m making a descriptive rather than a normative claim. In that I’m making a set of claims regarding how things are rather than how things ought to be or how we ought to act. For example, saying I saw a car crash is descriptive and saying car crashes are bad is normative. I made no arguments as to what we ought to do going forward or what would be the best actions to take.

But as regards to what I think we ought to do. 1) I think we ought to prioritise understanding cause and effect relationship as accurately as we can. 2) Then develop a vision for a future we want. 3) Identify problems based on the gap between present reality and ideal reality. 4) Then hypothesise solutions based on theory and past case studies and experiment to see what works.

Ultimately whether we do or do not do this is outside of our control however. Because nothing is in our control. Because every change in us and circumstance we find ourselves in is dictated by a complex set of cause and effect relationships. And so only reality can be said to be in control.

Quote

Is it your position that identifying problems and solutions is futile?
 

No. My argument is just that reality is the true cause of problems. I think identifying problems and solutions is important.

To reiterate I made only descriptive claims in my original post (claims that describe reality but do not say whether it is better or worse than an alternative reality).

Or simply it’s more mature(ego juice superior) to recognize the inevitability of reality, and only then press for change once that is acknowledged?

Id say it’s more accurate to recognise the inevitability of reality. And in a cognitive development sense being more accurate is more mature. 

We live in a world of cause and effect. So yes reality is inevitable. But I haven’t made an argument as to whether it’s wrong or right to press for change once that is acknowledged. 

Regarding the ego juicing claim, I think you take one possibility among many and take it to be true. But regardless, the accuracy of the claims I make is independent of my personal motives for saying them. If someone has 10 million bucks and says they do for ego reasons, the fact they say it for ego reasons doesn’t affect the accuracy of claim.

It’s so easy to find blind spots in worldviews, but what is even the point of this?

We want our worldviews to be as accurate as possible. Spotting blind spots helps make world views more accurate. Because unless you identify a problem in a worldview you cannot solve that problem. 

For me, it’s to understand human psychology. But once the blind spots are identified and the mechanisms known, then what?

Well once you understand something, empirically at least, then you realise 2 things. 1) What cause and effect relationships exists in that domain. 2) How different inputs into that system allow for specific system changes. From there you can change the way the system works to get preferred outcomes.

Like, to me, it doesn’t make sense that people are still posting examples of stage orange and green yellow mega threads because how many examples do you need to understand the blind spots, self-deceptions, and biases common to each level? 

I get you. Maybe it seems overkill.

But remember there are lots of users on this platform so some will only be posting a few examples and that will help them understand a topic better and help them practice expressing their beliefs in a public setting. 
 

And for the people who post a lot of examples I think a positive is that you get more and more xp regarding using the model. And it gives chance for feedback on your understanding of the model. Plus repetition over time helps keep the knowledge fresh and the skills high. This is like criticising someone for playing chess a lot because you say they learnt how all the pieces move within a few games.

How long must we stare at the same blind spot? What is this fixation really about? This is a dangerous thread to pull on for many egos here, including those thought to be highly developed. 

For many, it’s about self-esteem. Placing oneself higher than others. Being the one that can see. The special one. Because if there’s no practical benefit in returning to an assessment, why would one return to it a thousand times? The answer is ego juice. 

I think you make a reasonable argument here. I feel that pull of status when I make posts about spiral dynamics and it gives me some motivation to do so. However, I think your argument discounts the positive motivations folks might have or that I might have. we are part of actualized.org and the main guy here talks all the time about the model and how it’s important to understand deeply. So it’s reasonable to expect many posts about it. And for many of those posts to come from at least in part a desire for  growth and understanding. Which I also feel is a motivation of mine.

 

Edited July 5 by Ulax

[Ulax]

On 04/07/2025 at 10:45 PM, aurum said:

@Ulax well said. 

Green does not understand freedom, oppression or emergence.

Thank you.

Another way of saying it is the following. They do not understand how reality is totalitarian. No part of reality is in anyway free from the laws of reality. 

Edited July 5 by Ulax

[Ulax]

On 04/07/2025 at 10:55 PM, Hardkill said:

@Ulax You’re right about how idealistic and naive Green can be.

Though we need a healthy amount of green to keep pushing societies towards greater progress.

What do you suggest those in stage Green should do?

What should they do?

I don’t think they should necessarily do anything or nothing. If they want certain outcomes I think then I can say they ought do x or y. But in a general sense I don’t think there is any objective thing  they ought do.

I mean if they want better political outcomes. Ideally, I’d say they ought to have three things . 1) Academic understanding, 2) Ability to affect change, 3) Academic vision. This does assume that they are highly intelligent though too.

Firstly, by academic understanding they need to understand the relevant cause and effect relationships in reality. For example, what cause and effect relationships cause poverty in a certain society, and inputs to those systems produce what outcomes.

Secondly, by ability to affect change they need skills whereby they can affect the cause and effect relationships in sufficient ways. For example, compare the potential impact for change by virtue of having the ability to persuade 90% of congress compared to having the ability to organise a protest in a small town.

Thirdly, by academic vision they need a vision of what alternate reality they want to create. They need to decide what is the desired outcome from tinkering with cause and effect relationships. For example, maybe someone wants to reduce absolute poverty by 10%. I say a academic vision rather than vision purposefully. Because I think it’s important to have a vision which is created in light of an understanding of other well regarded visions. 

Edited July 5 by Ulax

[Joshe]

Thanks for explaining @Ulax! I understand your position now, and I agree with most of what you said. 

Edited July 5 by Joshe

[Ulax]

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

Thanks for explaining @Ulax! I understand your position now, and I agree with most of what you said. 

You’re welcome! Thank you for challenging my arguments and giving me the opportunity to clarify, and elaborate my points of view :).

[Basman]

There's too much complaining from Green in general and not enough results oriented action grounded in cold mundane reality. Imagine if Occupy Wall Street and Palestine protestors had as much energy for lobbying, petitions and running for government as they do protesting and looting.

Stage Green is ineffective at actual survival because they prioritize emotional consensus over hard results even though results is what they say that they want. Doing the boring work to create the world they want doesn't even seem to register as an option. There's a lack of resolve to Green and certain excesses get lost in the sauce. 

[BlueOak]

On 04/07/2025 at 9:33 PM, Ulax said:

The real cause of human problems is reality. All political problems are really existential problems. I use existential and reality interchangeably.

The real cause of human problems are humans, nothing more or less.

 

On 05/07/2025 at 11:07 PM, Ulax said:

Thank you.

Another way of saying it is the following. They do not understand how reality is totalitarian. No part of reality is in anyway free from the laws of reality. 

Your reality may be totalitarian. I experience very little totalitarianism. 

Unless you mean a different word. 

Definition:

Of, relating to, being, or imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, and opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed.

A system of government where the people have virtually no authority and the state wields absolute control of every aspect of the country, socially, financially and politically.

Characterized by a government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control

---

Very little of my reality do I have no control over. A certain amount of my life the state controls or dictates, the same as gravity, time, etc, but even these are malleable; the perception of time, especially, is speeding up, and perception is all that matters to humans. In fact there is a good case that human perception creates definitions, and those definitions are what we build our structure of reality upon.

More of life is relating to each other and interconnecting, becoming more efficient; more happens in a smaller space of time, hence the perception.

The reason I bring this up is that accountability for our actions, right now especially, is paramount to creating a stable world. I am responsible in its entirety for the creation and course of my life.

Edited July 9 by BlueOak