Unfairnesses and injustices in dating

[Eskilon]

37 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

I remember as a three year old, I was already distinguishing pretty faces VS mediocre forgettable faces. I was already forming crushes on my nursery school teachers, classmates, and random TV show characters. Nobody taught me to hyperfixate on pretty people. It was an authentic original impulse which, for the record, actually got punished by age eight, as all the kids in my class began teasing and taunting me for clearly being interested in Olivia (always staring at her, always trying to sit next to her and strike up conversation).

At 3 years old you barely have a sense of self -- If that. How can you make such distinctions?lol

Most likely a false memory or something.

But I agree that a guy can have genuine appreciation for feminine beauty and doesn't have any other ego reasons-- although like Joshe said this is likely not the majority and rare.

Edited July 10 by Eskilon

[RendHeaven]

4 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

At 3 years old you barely have a sense of self -- If that. How can you make such distinctions?lol

Most likely a false memory or something.

tell that to kim ung yong who was solving calculus problems and writing full-fledged books at age 3 lmao.

we all develop at our own pace.

feeling drawn to pretty people is a paltry feat. I was shocked to learn that other people were not doing this at age 3

[Eskilon]

12 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

tell that to kim ung yong who was solving calculus problems and writing full-fledged books at age 3 lmao.

I am aware of him lol. Genetic freaks doesnt invalidate my point. 

In his case is clearly not a false memory or something because he was impacting the "real world" with his doings.

But you portrayed your case as "Remembering" so that's why I commented.

But I'm not gaslighting you here, it could be real and actual. Bro just love the feminine to death. 

Edited July 10 by Eskilon

[RendHeaven]

11 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

But you portrayed your case as "Remembering" so that's why I commented.

Fair

[Joshe]

3 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

Looks like you have a bone to pick with my good-faith argument from earlier. But instead of addressing it head on, you're subtly badmouthing it by addressing other people who already agree with you, and framing my stance as "they would say" while straw manning me and feeling like you've won.

Yes, I was saying the majority of people who use the argument are full of shit, and without knowing you, I have to default you into that bucket as well. Nothing personal, it's just in my experience as a man, who has deconstructed countless ego games, I'm calling it bullshit, but maybe you are that .01%, which I left room for. 

I am consciously projecting my own value system onto all this, and I'm aware I could just be dealing with an alien value system not driven by ego. If that's truly the case, I'm sorry if I've offended you. If it's any consolation, since you're an Actualized.org VIP, I put your odds at 1-100 instead of 1-10000. Lol

3 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

What you're not allowing yourself to see is that a genuine lover of beautiful women will always elect to be with a beautiful woman irrespective of "status signalling" and "ego." I, for example, will always prefer a beautiful woman, even if we were to be the last two humans on earth and I had nobody left to "show her off" to. Furthermore, I would choose a beautiful woman without hesitation even if the cultural norms happened to punish that.

You and every other man. If you spread a 5 open on a bed and right next to her a 10 and say "which do you prefer?", 99% will choose the 10. Congrats on being special. We're all "lovers of beauty" in this regard. Status and ego mostly disappear here while the animal takes over.

Status and ego come into play when you start with this pretentious, elitist game of acting like your appreciation for beauty is so profound and special that it compels you to seek out only 9s and 10s. This only makes sense if you yourself are 8-10 or have a very oddball value system. 

3 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

Just be careful painting with broad brushes. You risk collapsing aesthetic value into mere power dispute. You can be drawn to beauty for the social implications, or you can be drawn to beauty for its own sake. For most guys, it's likely a dual incentive. When you claim that 99.999% of men who want madison beer are ego driven, you're being willingly neglectful of the fact that she's actually just pretty as fuck and most guys are drawn to pretty women.

Yes, I have a dick myself. I remember asking my mom why my pee pee got hard when I saw a man kiss a woman in her bra on Cinemax when I was 4. I used to fantasize about saving my pretty kindergarten teacher from falling off a rooftop and then she lets me play with her tits. I also remember approaching pretty girls in 4k to ask them if they liked me better than some other dude. So of course I know about being attracted to females before status comes into play. 

Again, the natural impulse is fine. It's the pretentious ego game of "Only the Finest" that I'm mocking.

Here's the ego game I intuit is in play:

Again, if that's not you, I apologize. But keep in mind, the ego is sneaky and very deceptive. How can you be sure it's not playing this game with you? It sure plays it with many others. 

Edited July 10 by Joshe

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, aurum said:

I agree with that advice.

Yeah, the mindset of guys who are very focused on searching out the most physically attractive woman, is not conducive to a feel good relationship for either partner. That's why I recommend watching out for tells that a guy is too focused on the physical element of attraction and to sort them from consideration.

Men who are overly focused on looks are like devourers of beauty... and are not capable of actually appreciating beauty beyond the most obvious expressions of it. They really just see beauty as pure functional utility and nothing more than that, which prevents them from truly appreciating or understanding beauty.

And it's genuinely dangerous for women of all levels of attractiveness to get into relationships with these guys.

For a very attractive woman, these beauty gluttons won't really care about her and will just use her and eventually leave her for a younger hotter model. (And when you're attractive as a woman, you just get tons of spam attention from these kinds of guys. So, the more attractive a woman is, the more it behooves her to get really good at identifying and sorting these guys from consideration.)

And for women who are average or unattractive, beauty gluttons won't value these women at all, as people. But they will settle for these women when the more attractive women reject them, and they're lonely. And these guys will resent the average women for not being up to their standards.

Mind you, most beauty gluttons are not attractive or successful themselves.

They're usually average or below-average looking guys with high looks standards for women. And many of them are just looking for a validation of their own worthiness via interpreting sexual validation from a woman as synonymous with their own worthiness as a human.

So, the latter dynamic can happen between a woman who's a 6 and a beauty glutton who's a 4 will get into a relationship... and the 4 will resent the 6 for not being a 10.

But even if this 4 were to get a 10, the 10 still wouldn't be enough... because it's about variety and conquest for more beauty consumption.

And similar to how a man might open a bunch of tabs to flip between porn videos to maximize his pleasure through variety (which is fine)... a woman who ends up with a beauty glutton, will be faced with the impossible task of trying to be a variety of ideally attractive women to keep the beauty glutton interested.

And she will fail to be every attractive women, and he will always be disappointed in her.

Even a perfect 10 is not enough for a beauty glutton... as she can never be EVERY perfect 10 in the world. She can only be one perfect 10.

Until he grows out of that phase, he will never be pleased with the woman he's with because there's always a more beautiful woman. And the woman will feel very unfulfilled sexually and emotionally in such a relationship dynamic because women need to feel like the man adores her to feel secure and to open up sexually.

[Emerald]

@Joshe Regarding what you mentioned above about positioning 'only being attracted to 9s and 10s' as "appreciating beauty" as though it's a sophisticated thing that signals some kind of exceptionality of the guy claiming that...

First off, you're 100% correct. That's exactly what gets communicated.

But this notion that the other poster said about "appreciating beauty", is actually the opposite of what sophistication is... and the opposite of being an appreciator of beauty.

Sophistication means developing a rarer ability for appreciating beauty and enjoyment in contexts that less mature palates can't detect.

So sophistication of taste requires acquiring a taste for disgust... and requires a challenge to find a deeper expression of beauty within that disgust. And the way that the Yin and Yang of things works is that the most beautiful of all things can only be found in disgust as "the diamond in the rough."

Consider how, when we're babies, we only have a natural taste for sweet flavors. In fact, breast milk tastes almost exactly like the milk that's left over after you eat Fruit Loops... uncannily so.

And all else that isn't sweet tastes like poison to babies and small children... and brings up disgust. So, the child's palate must be trained to mature to appreciate more "disgusting" tastes like bitter, sour, savory, salty, spicy, etc.

And most of us eventually acquire these tastes, and we find the deliciousness in what we once were disgusted by... not even recognizing that it's the disgustingness of these flavors that make foods delicious.

Then, an even more refined adult who has trained their palate to appreciate even more disgust can appreciate great wine and pick up on all the subtle notes. 

So, the more disgust a person can appreciate and find beauty and deliciousness in, the more refined their tastes are. And they are able to appreciate beauty and deliciousness on a more sublime level, beyond those who can only appreciate pure sweetness.

And if we bring this into the topic of physical beauty. Let's say that the most beautiful woman in the world is like near-perfect sweetness. A beautiful woman's appearance is easy to appreciate for men, women, and children alike.

But this enjoyment of beauty on this most obvious level is not challenging... and doesn't go very deep. 

One must refine their palate to appreciate the disgusting elements of the human body (and the world at large) to truly realize a deeper and more sublime realization of beauty.

Think of it like an artist that finds beauty in painting a portrait of an old person with all sorts of interesting lines and wrinkles on their faces. Or a person who can visit a barren wasteland and find beauty. Or a musician that can find a greater realization of beauty in their music through incorporating some discordant notes into a song.

That's the mark of a true sophisticate who really appreciates beauty.

But finding a beautiful woman beautiful and saying "I'm only interested in 10s" and that they can't find beauty in an average woman is admitting that they haven't acquired enough of an appreciation for disgust to truly recognize and appreciate the beauty of a woman... or anything at all. And even the actual beauty of the 10 will go un-noticed.

That's why I recommend for women to sort men from consideration who can't appreciate or understand beauty beyond its most obvious forms.

What they believe is an appreciation for beauty... is actually indicative of a near-blindness to beauty.

Edited July 10 by Emerald

[RendHeaven]

2 hours ago, Joshe said:

If it's any consolation, since you're an Actualized.org VIP, I put your odds at 1-100 instead of 1-10000. Lol

thanks lol

2 hours ago, Joshe said:

Status and ego come into play when you start with this pretentious, elitist game of acting like your appreciation for beauty is so profound and special that it compels you to seek out only 9s and 10s.

I hope I didn't give off that impression. My personal cutoff is 6.9. So I have interest in all girls that strike me as an aesthetic 7+

yes, this is deeply subjective, but it's something I feel in my gut. I'm not sitting there judging women analytically. I just instinctively know within half a second if I'm interested or not.

Often I find that my aesthetic "standards" are much higher than most men. A lot of guys I know will just want to fuck anything that moves... women I would consider a 5 (which is not even derogatory. most women must be a 5 by definition if you assume a normal distribution curve). Personally, I'm not a fan of that. So in that sense you could say that I'm relativistically elitist. But from my own POV it's as simple as I like pretty girls and tiddies. 0 thoughts, just oogabooga.

It's not that appreciation of beauty is profound or special, but that it gives an authentic, pure drive for wanting the so-called "9s and 10s." And to that end, I see nothing wrong with employing basic strategy like knowing where to go, having connections, putting your best foot forward, etc.

My pushback was against your hard stance that pursuing 9s and 10s are entirely ego-driven trauma responses.

Yes, if you make your whole life about "hunting the 10," then you will end up a very sad man (and frankly you won't even get her lol).

I acknowledge that ego is often present in the pursuit of beautiful women.

2 hours ago, Joshe said:

I used to fantasize about saving my pretty kindergarten teacher from falling off a rooftop and then she lets me play with her tits.

valid

2 hours ago, Joshe said:

Again, the natural impulse is fine. It's the pretentious ego game of "Only the Finest" that I'm mocking.

Gotcha, good clarification

3 hours ago, Joshe said:

But keep in mind, the ego is sneaky and very deceptive. How can you be sure it's not playing this game with you? It sure plays it with many others. 

that's completely fair. I wouldn't trust me either if I was another forum member reading "RendHeaven's" dissertations 

[theleelajoker]

6 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

@theleelajoker Not mutually exclusive

It makes perfect sense. Obviously looks are subjective, but everybody has a personalized aesthetic ideal in their head which is their benchmark of "10." If you genuinely can't think of a "personalized aesthetic ideal," then just recall the most aesthetic face + body combo you've ever been attracted to, and call that your 10 for now.

From there, every deviation away from that ideal knocks off points. Not in the sense that they become a lesser person, but just that you're measuring their aesthetic "distance" from your ultimate preference. This is purely aesthetic. If you don't value looks, then you will find this whole endeavor stupid and wasteful and even insulting. And you're right - you can't measure the sum total of a person's attractiveness because it IS more than looks. But if you do value aesthetics, then this will just be a simple pragmatic tool, like a ruler. The ruler never promised to weigh you in pounds. The ruler just reports one metric.

From there, we can cross reference every individual's subjective scale to get an average "global scale" which will be at least somewhat representative of every individual's personal scale, because it turns out that many of our aesthetic biases overlap (like proportionality, symmetry, sexual dimorphism, general health and fertility, etc.)

If we do this right, we will notice that overt qualities like race or height or hair color or body type (ectomorph, mesomorph, endomorph, etc) barely matter. Also absolute size of bust or hips is also irrelevant. What actually matters is their ratio against the waist. i.e. what actually matters is the relation of shapes and sizes on the face and body relative to other shapes and sizes on the same body. The overwhelming majority of us are drawn to balanced faces and bodies.

Not all of us, but most of us.

You have a point.  I did appreciate my personal most aesthetic face + body combo, and if I had the choice, I rather have that again in a woman than not. I clearly enjoyed it and still enjoy that. 

But what I am saying: Why put any rating on it? Just say "I find her beautiful, attractive, whatever" instead of putting a number on her and compare to other humans. There is NOTHING gained by doing that instead of ego, status games (see @joshe posts).  And a lot is lost from it IMO. 

Edited July 10 by theleelajoker

[RendHeaven]

2 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

But what I am saying: Why put any rating on it? Just say "I find her beautiful, attractive, whatever" instead of putting a number on her and compare to other humans. There is NOTHING gained by doing that instead of ego. status games.  And a lot is lost from it IMO. 

@theleelajoker Yeah it's not healthy to run around ranking people's looks in your mind, especially as you're interacting with them in real time.

The rating scale is only useful insofar as you want to communicate to someone else a snapshot instance of beauty. If I were to tell you about a girl I just met, and I said "she was a 7," you vaguely get the sense that she was quite pretty but not necessarily a supermodel. This helps you form a picture in your mind of what kind of girl we're talking about. Whereas if I said "bro I swear to got she was literally a 10" in that same conversation, now you have very different expectations. Was this girl a model? an actress? the energy of the convo is changed by this one detail.

And of course the mindfuck is that if you fall in love with a "5," she will genuinely look like a "10" to you. Speaking from personal experience here. My highschool sweetheart, in hindsight, was a 5 (i.e. strictly average. not beautiful nor ugly). But in the moment I would've sworn she was literally flawless lol. So which rating of her was more true? 5 or 10? I think both. The scale literally warps alongside your shifting biases. Because the scale IS measuring your bias. this is not a bug, but a feature.

[RendHeaven]

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

devourers of beauty

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

beauty gluttons

mmmm I like that. that could very well describe me

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

And for women who are average or unattractive, beauty gluttons won't value these women at all, as people.

Not necessarily true

3 hours ago, Emerald said:

Mind you, most beauty gluttons are not attractive or successful themselves.

fake fans of beauty

3 hours ago, Emerald said:

Consider how, when we're babies, we only have a natural taste for sweet flavors. In fact, breast milk tastes almost exactly like the milk that's left over after you eat Fruit Loops... uncannily so.

And all else that isn't sweet tastes like poison to babies and small children... and brings up disgust. So, the child's palate must be trained to mature to appreciate more "disgusting" tastes like bitter, sour, savory, salty, spicy, etc.

And most of us eventually acquire these tastes, and we find the deliciousness in what we once were disgusted by... not even recognizing that it's the disgustingness of these flavors that make foods delicious.

Then, an even more refined adult who has trained their palate to appreciate even more disgust can appreciate great wine and pick up on all the subtle notes. 

So, the more disgust a person can appreciate and find beauty and deliciousness in, the more refined their tastes are. And they are able to appreciate beauty and deliciousness on a more sublime level, beyond those who can only appreciate pure sweetness.

And if we bring this into the topic of physical beauty. Let's say that the most beautiful woman in the world is like near-perfect sweetness. A beautiful woman's appearance is easy to appreciate for men, women, and children alike.

But this enjoyment of beauty on this most obvious level is not challenging... and doesn't go very deep. 

Bad metaphor

According to you, classical beauty is a simple childish flavor that we must evolve past to appreciate more complex mature flavors. But this only works in the case of food sustenance because sweetness is overabundant and the de facto taste. The movement from simple sweetness to complex non-sweetness is only virtuous in relation to the oversaturation of sweetness. Our tongues already know of sweetness. And if that's all we have, then our experience is 1-dimensional. Thus we seek multidimensional experience and ween off of pure sweetness.

With regards to classical feminine beauty, the script is flipped (from the male POV). No guy starts out with a 10 on their dick. In fact, likely your first few partners will be very average in looks. It's moreso the case that the defacto oversaturation is precisely "complex obscure flavors." you will be enjoying bitterness and saltiness and spiciness and sourness far before you ever stumble onto a single droplet of honey.

You are downplaying the rarity of good looking people. By your own definition, if the virtuous move is to expand your pallete and shift towards a more multidimensional experience, then it is precisely classical feminine beauty that ought to be sought. 

For your metaphor to hold - to seriously claim that a movement away from sweetness is virtuous - men would first have to experience drowning in fine shyt (aka beautiful women), and only then would a movement away from classical beauty towards more complex flavors be considered growth. But almost no man is in this category.

I understand that the feminine will instinctively recoil at what I'm saying, because this is threatening stuff. You will feel that I am wrong and/or oversimplifying.

[theleelajoker]

2 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

@theleelajoker Yeah it's not healthy to run around ranking people's looks in your mind, especially as you're interacting with them in real time.

The rating scale is only useful insofar as you want to communicate to someone else a snapshot instance of beauty. If I were to tell you about a girl I just met, and I said "she was a 7," you vaguely get the sense that she was quite pretty but not necessarily a supermodel. This helps you form a picture in your mind of what kind of girl we're talking about. Whereas if I said "bro I swear to got she was literally a 10" in that same conversation, now you have very different expectations. Was this girl a model? an actress? the energy of the convo is changed by this one detail.

And of course the mindfuck is that if you fall in love with a "5," she will genuinely look like a "10" to you. Speaking from personal experience here. My highschool sweetheart, in hindsight, was a 5 (i.e. strictly average. not beautiful nor ugly). But in the moment I would've sworn she was literally flawless lol. So which rating of her was more true? 5 or 10? I think both. The scale literally warps alongside your shifting biases. Because the scale IS measuring your bias. this is not a bug, but a feature.

I think we are more or less aligned with that.

I think the intention to communicate this "snapshot instance of beauty" is better in a subjective way. "She was so beautiful I still have her smile in front if my eyes" or "she was pretty, but I only got attracted to her sexually after 10 minutes of talking because [insert reason: funny, smart, empathic, honest, ...] or whatever you made you like her. You talk about how YOU FELT / FEEL about her instead ob objectifying her (or him, goes both ways!).

Why? Two reasons:

1. Beauty - or whatever other thing, or person - creates a FEELING for you. You want that feeling. So it's about you, and your feeling, and not her/him. We attribute feelings to other people, but in the end WE CONSTRUCT THEM WITHIN
2. Mindfuck you mentioned, we create our rating. Got nothing to add other that I experienced it myself   

Especially in 2. THERE IS IMO A HUGE LEARNING FOR EVERYONE (and maybe especially for guys struggling to get to know / attract women): Attraction is not only instantaneous, it' not purely objective, it's a PROCESS as well. Get to know the other person, and give the other person a chance to get to know you.

Funny thing that also happened to me was e.g. that in relationships, the things that annoyed me at the beginning were after some time THE VERY THING I started to love about this woman. At the beginning I resisted it, in the end I just looked at her and smiled, feeling a deep inner warmth just observing her being herself, expressing herself 

 

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

According to you, classical beauty is a simple childish flavor that we must evolve past to appreciate more complex mature flavors. But this only works in the case of food sustenance because sweetness is overabundant and the de facto taste. The movement from simple sweetness to complex non-sweetness is only virtuous in relation to the oversaturation of sweetness. Our tongues already know of sweetness. And if that's all we have, then our experience is 1-dimensional. Thus we seek multidimensional experience and ween off of pure sweetness.

With regards to classical feminine beauty, the script is flipped (from the male POV). No guy starts out with a 10 on their dick. In fact, likely your first few partners will be very average in looks. It's moreso the case that the defacto oversaturation is precisely "complex obscure flavors." you will be enjoying bitterness and saltiness and spiciness and sourness far before you ever stumble onto a single droplet of honey.

You are downplaying the rarity of good looking people. By your own definition, if the virtuous move is to expand your pallete and shift towards a more multidimensional experience, then it is precisely classical feminine beauty that ought to be sought. 

For your metaphor to hold - to seriously claim that a movement away from sweetness is virtuous - men would first have to experience drowning in fine shyt (aka beautiful women), and only then would a movement away from classical beauty towards more complex flavors be considered growth. But almost no man is in this category.

I understand that the feminine will instinctively recoil at what I'm saying, because this is threatening stuff. You will feel that I am wrong and/or oversimplifying.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

Beautiful people are rare, and it is totally fine to appreciate the beauty of beautiful people. In fact, it's the most common thing in the world to appreciate the beauty of beautiful people.

Every man, woman, and child naturally does appreciate the appearances of beautiful people.

And it isn't about virtue at all. I'm not making a moral argument. 

It's about what it truly means to be an appreciator of beauty in the sublime sense. And it's not necessarily less virtuous to fail to appreciate beauty in the sublime sense.

But to frame appreciating the looks of beautiful women as somehow about having a sophisticated or refined taste and as "being an appreciator of beauty" is just silly, as it pretends towards having a connoisseur's palate and to pass one's self off as having refined and uncommon taste... when finding attractive women attractive is the most common taste in the world.

The appearance of a beautiful woman is literally the most popular flavor of appearance in the entire human species.

And true refinement of taste and appreciation of beauty requires one to acquire tastes for more challenging flavors of experience (beyond human iterations of beauty). And enjoying the looks of beautiful women is as easy as enjoying a delicious crowd-pleasing dessert.

But if a man has no appreciation for beauty outside of the most attractive women, it's a sign that he has a dulled palate for beauty and won't be able to find beauty in any other place but a beautiful woman. (To be clear, it's not that people with refined palates for beauty don't find beautiful people beautiful. But they can find sources of beauty everywhere.)

And if a man who only appreciates the beauty of the most beautiful women, he probably won't be a good longterm partner. And that's because, even the most beautiful women all eventually look like little old ladies.

So, it's important to find a man who can recognize beauty beyond its most obvious forms, and to sort beauty gluttons from consideration. That's especially true for very beautiful women.

[theleelajoker]

10 minutes ago, Emerald said:

That's not what I'm saying at all.

Beautiful people are rare, and it is totally fine to appreciate the beauty of beautiful people. In fact, it's the most common thing in the world to appreciate the beauty of beautiful people.

Every man, woman, and child naturally does appreciate the appearances of beautiful people.

And it isn't about virtue at all. I'm not making a moral argument. 

It's about what it truly means to be an appreciator of beauty in the sublime sense. And it's not necessarily less virtuous to fail to appreciate beauty in the sublime sense.

But to frame appreciating the looks of beautiful women as somehow about having a sophisticated or refined taste and as "being an appreciator of beauty" is just silly, as it pretends towards having a connoisseur's palate and to pass one's self off as having refined and uncommon taste... when finding attractive women attractive is the most common taste in the world.

The appearance of a beautiful woman is literally the most popular flavor of appearance in the entire human species.

And true refinement of taste and appreciation of beauty requires one to acquire tastes for more challenging flavors of experience (beyond human iterations of beauty). And enjoying the looks of beautiful women is as easy as enjoying a delicious crowd-pleasing dessert.

But if a man has no appreciation for beauty outside of the most attractive women, it's a sign that he has a dulled palate for beauty and won't be able to find beauty in any other place but a beautiful woman. (To be clear, it's not that people with refined palates for beauty don't find beautiful people beautiful. But they can find sources of beauty everywhere.)

And if a man who only appreciates the beauty of the most beautiful women, he probably won't be a good longterm partner. And that's because, even the most beautiful women all eventually look like little old ladies.

So, it's important to find a man who can recognize beauty beyond its most obvious forms, and to sort beauty gluttons from consideration. That's especially true for very beautiful women.

+ 1

Finding beauty in the non - obvious is a true skill for living a fulfilled life. Women are an obvious topic, but it goes deeper than that. Much deeper. 

"And if a man who only appreciates the beauty of the most beautiful women, he probably won't be a good longterm partner. And that's because, even the most beautiful women all eventually look like little old ladies."

Yeah realizing that is very important IMO. During many dates I feel women checking me out:  "Does he REALLY like me? Will he still like me when I am older? Will he go and hunt younger, more attractive women?"

This check is valid but it needs balance. At some point, you just need to let go and do it. Because from my perspective this fear can also keep women from truly connecting. It then becomes a game of "instead of taking a risk I rather retreat, stay cold and don't open up for true connection. If I never fully commit, I will never be left for a younger woman, thus avoiding pain"

For me it seems it happens typically subconsciously. Fear of not being loved for who I am. 

What's left is often a lose-lose for both men and women. 

 

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

+ 1

Finding beauty in the non - obvious is a true skill for living a fulfilled life. Women are an obvious topic, but it goes deeper than that. Much deeper. 

"And if a man who only appreciates the beauty of the most beautiful women, he probably won't be a good longterm partner. And that's because, even the most beautiful women all eventually look like little old ladies."

Yeah realizing that is very important IMO. During many dates I feel women checking me out:  "Does he REALLY like me? Will he still like me when I am older? Will he go and hunt younger, more attractive women?"

This check is valid but it needs balance. At some point, you just need to let go and do it. Because from my perspective this fear can also keep women from truly connecting. It then becomes a game of "instead of taking a risk I rather retreat, stay cold and don't open up for true connection. If I never fully commit, I will never be left for a younger woman, thus avoiding pain"

For me it seems it happens typically subconsciously. Fear of not being loved for who I am. 

What's left is often a lose-lose for both men and women. 

Honestly, it's pretty easy to sort out beauty gluttons as there are many tells that come through in their vibe and the way they carry themselves... as well as the way they relate to your physical appearance as a woman.

You can immediately tell when a guy is really into you or just scrounging around for a beauty conquest.

It's not something that most women have to over-focus on to sort out. It's just a discordant vibe that doesn't feel very good.

Most women are unattracted to this vibe.

But for women who are used to being objectified and mistreated, they can develop some blindspots to this type of guy. And the familiarity of it can attract them.

[RendHeaven]

50 minutes ago, Emerald said:

And it's not necessarily less virtuous to fail to appreciate beauty in the sublime sense.

I see. Good disclaimer

51 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But to frame appreciating the looks of beautiful women as somehow about having a sophisticated or refined taste and as "being an appreciator of beauty" is just silly, as it pretends towards having a connoisseur's palate and to pass one's self off as having refined and uncommon taste... when finding attractive women attractive is the most common taste in the world.

You're right, it's not sophisticated at all. Hopefully I haven't insinuated that it is.

However, It's honest. That's what I'm personally interested in.

55 minutes ago, Emerald said:

The appearance of a beautiful woman is literally the most popular flavor of appearance in the entire human species.

For good reason ;]

It's not random or arbitrary.

57 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But if a man has no appreciation for beauty outside of the most attractive women, it's a sign that he has a dulled palate for beauty and won't be able to find beauty in any other place but a beautiful woman. (To be clear, it's not that people with refined palates for beauty don't find beautiful people beautiful. But they can find sources of beauty everywhere.)

I sound like a traditional beauty shill in this thread, but I actually agree with your point here.

It's abundantly clear to me that beauty (in a sublime sense, as you say) is omnipresent, and that every human is crafted out of pure beauty in that sense.

But it gets tricky when my personal reproduction gets involved. Because no, I do not want to procreate with the saggy crusty grandma no matter how thoroughly I recognize her divine perfection.

Unfortunately, as a heterosexual guy with 1000 testosterone, my sexual biases will inevitably flare up if I'm sharing my outlook on women.

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

And if a man who only appreciates the beauty of the most beautiful women, he probably won't be a good longterm partner. And that's because, even the most beautiful women all eventually look like little old ladies.

Yeah this is something I've wrestled with.

The ideal scenario is that my partner ages gracefully. Which means I'll have to filter for someone who invests in longevity and personal health.

But even then, by the time she's 80 she will be a crusty saggy grandma. At that point, we'll have to bank on my testosterone crashing lmao. Just cut my nuts off at that point.

[Schizophonia]

11 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

 

But it gets tricky when my personal reproduction gets involved. Because no, I do not want to procreate with the saggy crusty grandma no matter how thoroughly I recognize her divine perfection.

Unfortunately, as a heterosexual guy with 1000 testosterone, my sexual biases will inevitably flare up if I'm sharing my outlook on women.

Yeah this is something I've wrestled with.

 

Be careful when you feel the need to declare something to yourself and to society; it's to counteract the impression to the contrary.

I say that I deserve someone of quality with a certain aggressiveness, because ultimately, I feel the opposite.

Imprinting on the subconscious does indeed come through affirmation, but when it's repeated, it's because there's an internal war going on with other less-than-ideal affirmations about self-esteem. Anger is the mark of the feeling opposite to what is desired.

If you see what i mean

 

#NevilleGoddard

[RendHeaven]

10 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Be careful when you feel the need to declare something to yourself and to society; it's to counteract the impression to the contrary.

I say that I deserve someone of quality with a certain aggressiveness, because ultimately, I feel the opposite.

Imprinting on the subconscious does indeed come through affirmation, but when it's repeated, it's because there's an internal war going on with other less-than-ideal affirmations about self-esteem. Anger is the mark of the feeling opposite to what is desired.

If you see what i mean

 

#NevilleGoddard

u think i'm trynna fugg a saggy crusty grandma bro

[Emerald]

57 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Unfortunately, as a heterosexual guy with 1000 testosterone, my sexual biases will inevitably flare up if I'm sharing my outlook on women.

Yeah this is something I've wrestled with.

The ideal scenario is that my partner ages gracefully. Which means I'll have to filter for someone who invests in longevity and personal health.

But even then, by the time she's 80 she will be a crusty saggy grandma. At that point, we'll have to bank on my testosterone crashing lmao. Just cut my nuts off at that point.

That's precisely why I recommend to women to sort beauty gluttons from consideration. They're not longterm husband material.

Men who are overly focused on a woman's physical attractiveness won't be able to find beauty in her as she ages. And one woman will never be enough for him, because he is a devourer of beauty.

He will not see her as his beautiful wife that he loves and adores. He will only see her as a crusty old grandma that he tolerates for company while pining for 25-year old women at the age of 70.

And life for the woman will be fighting against the inevitability of time removing her lovability in the eyes of the beauty glutton old man... and knowing she's only loved and adored for an archetype that she only inhabits for 10-20 years of her life. 

And she will get no romantic or sexual satisfaction from a man who can only appreciate the springtime of a woman on the most beautiful days... but cannot find beauty in the winter. It's like being a fine wine that cannot be appreciated by those who only have the palate to appreciate grape juice.

The fact of the matter is that beauty gluttons cannot appreciate the beauty of the maiden, mother, and crone. So, he is an unwise partner to procreate with as he cannot appreciate the beauty of a woman (as the woman is always maiden, mother, and crown all at once)... as a woman is only a maiden for a short time.

If you reject the crone, you reject the maiden... and the maiden will reject you.

Edited July 10 by Emerald

[aurum]

10 hours ago, Emerald said:

Even a perfect 10 is not enough for a beauty glutton... as she can never be EVERY perfect 10 in the world. She can only be one perfect 10.

How do you distinguish between a beauty glutton versus someone who is attractive and also just wants an attractive partner?

Is it just that one is attractive and one isn't?

Edited July 10 by aurum