Unfairnesses and injustices in dating

[RendHeaven]

@Joshe I was mostly teasing, no malice intended. Your original point was good.

42 minutes ago, Joshe said:

If you’re over 30 and still taking pickup seriously, to the point where you study the mating habits and social circles of dime pieces, you got issues. Very likely over-compensating for your earlier years. 

I do want to push back on this a little bit. One could just have a very simple and pure lifelong interest in beautiful women, and it's not a fair interpretation to accuse this guy of "childhood issues." For such a man, it's not about the trophies or clout or praise. It's about wanting to admire femininity and beauty up close and personally.

The borderline-autistic studying and strategizing arises as a necessary stepping stone towards that aim. As a healthy guy with a healthy drive to cherish beautiful women, you are faced with gatekeeper after gatekeeper. For starters, you don't even know where to go. And even if you did, you would not be allowed in. And even if you were allowed in, you would get brutally mogged. These are not obstacles that you can merely "vibe" your way past. Which is why really ambitious pickup guys can appear like plotting schemers.

They could just be overcompensating for lack of love and stuck in a neurotic seeking loop. Or, they could be a real lover of beauty and they're just laying the necessary groundwork to actualize that love.

[RendHeaven]

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

Have fun collecting your trophies. Miami explains a lot. Super competitive ethos. Trophies are important in Miami. Cringe city. 

Rejecting trophies seems to be your version of a trophy

[RendHeaven]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

This is the kind of thing your 10 is doing while you're at a dive bar having deep conversations with old people:

https://youtu.be/qysTp512dfA?si=K3oe6NqveYJNAh-s

@aurum wrong, my 10 would never go to that party because she's a good girl

 

 

(sigh)

[NewKidOnTheBlock]

The best thing to do imo, which you have the most control over, is to just stop validating those feelings you have about these injustices, it is always going to sting on some level and there's no point in supressing yourself from feeling it, but just don't feed into that stinky puddle, stop needlesly swimming in it and feeling sorry about yourself. There are much worse problems to have and this issue is just a slight annoyance compared to the severity of other problems other people have. Then the other important thing is of course, start doing something about it, but that's not so simple nor easy of course

Edited July 7 by NewKidOnTheBlock

[aurum]

8 hours ago, Joshe said:

I don’t live that life anymore. Grew out of it, but even still, I’d stick with the old people. Have fun collecting your trophies. Miami explains a lot. Super competitive ethos. Trophies are important in Miami. Cringe city. 

I’m not suggesting anyone should live this life. I don’t even myself.

I’m pointing out realities of the modern dating world.

Choose whatever life you feel is best.

There’s also nothing exclusive to what I said about Miami. Any major city will have its version of this. Miami is just a bit more extreme than others.

Whether you want to collect trophies or settle down and have a deep relationship, you still have to meet her.

Edited July 7 by aurum

[aurum]

6 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

@aurum wrong, my 10 would never go to that party because she's a good girl

 

 

(sigh)

Don’t worry bro, she’s going to be at the book club meeting from Meetup.com

[RendHeaven]

8 minutes ago, aurum said:

Don’t worry bro, she’s going to be at the book club meeting from Meetup.com

right right and she's gonna be a genuine truthseeker AND she's gonna have model looks without trying AND she's gonna be a virgin who never talks to other guys

[aurum]

12 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

right right and she's gonna be a genuine truthseeker AND she's gonna have model looks without trying AND she's gonna be a virgin who never talks to other guys

You forgot lives a perfect wellness lifestyle, eschewing drugs and alcohol. 

[RendHeaven]

12 minutes ago, aurum said:

You forgot lives a perfect wellness lifestyle, eschewing drugs and alcohol. 

+no childhood trauma +no bipolar tendencies +has no attention seeking impulse +takes radical responsibility

And of course, the punchline is that she's gonna love and fuck ME and only ME and not "celebrities, professional athletes, influencers, high-level promoters, rich trust-fund kids, famous musicians, socialites, hospitality insiders, foreign billionaires etc."

because I'm just gonna be so authentic. Being myself. I'm gonna have a "special connection" to her because I put in the time to open up my heart chakra (which she will definitely notice and praise)

when I meet her at the bookclub (from meetup.com), everything is going to go slow-mo as we lock eyes, and in that moment I will feel a rush of self righteous validation: "thank God I avoided shallow conceited parties"

[aurum]

8 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

+no childhood trauma +no bipolar tendencies +has no attention seeking impulse +takes radical responsibility

And of course, the punchline is that she's gonna love and fuck ME and only ME and not "celebrities, professional athletes, influencers, high-level promoters, rich trust-fund kids, famous musicians, socialites, hospitality insiders, foreign billionaires etc."

because I'm just gonna be so authentic. Being myself. I'm gonna have a "special connection" to her because I put in the time to open up my heart chakra (which she will definitely notice and praise)

when I meet her at the bookclub (from meetup.com), everything is going to go slow-mo as we lock eyes, and in that moment I will feel a rush of self righteous validation: "thank God I avoided shallow conceited parties"

We did it guys  we solved dating.

Everyone get your meetup account ready and head down to your local dive bar, she's waiting.

[Emerald]

11 hours ago, aurum said:

You don't have to think about it as pickup per se. You could think about it as social circle building.

If you're seeing pick-up as a means of developing a warm social circle... I don't observe that working out very well.

The healthiest way would be to build a platonic social circle... and then to launch from your platonic social circle to approach new women.

The other way around it is that you build your social circle around your sexual needs... and the guys and your wingmen and the women are your conquests.

It just doesn't seem like a very healthy social circle.

[aurum]

7 minutes ago, Emerald said:

The healthiest way would be to build a platonic social circle... and then to launch from your platonic social circle to approach new women.

The other way around it is that you build your social circle around your sexual needs... and the guys and your wingmen and the women are your conquests.

And how do you ensure that your platonic social circle will even allow you to approach the women you want to date? Or that you don't give yourself golden handcuffs by placing yourself in the wrong kind of role?

You have to think ahead about this kind of thing. It does not just happen.

Again, you don't have to do "pickup". 

But you do need to plan and initiate conversations with people. 

[Joshe]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

It just doesn't seem like a very healthy social circle.

Right. I spent my teen years in pickup manipulation mode and could manipulate the shit out of people. I could even talk my buddies into talking their girls into sleeping with me, and I'd tell them what to say. It was sick and very unhealthy and led to thoroughly ruining my reputation in my hometown. I still experience shame about all this. Anyway, I moved to a new town, cut out all the bullshit, started fresh, and things got better.

As far as I can see, there is no healthy way to gather and hold in mind all the knowledge of how to manipulate women, with the intent to manipulate them like your puppet, and to have a healthy conscience. We've seen a few of the justifications for such behavior in this thread, and there are many more, but it's all obviously bullshit.

There comes a time when you realize you should treat women with respect and not take advantage of them for your own selfish gain. I just turned down sex because I know in return, I'm expected to give my time and attention, which I'm not willing to do, so I'm not going to take something from her and not give her what I know she wants in return. 

I suppose if you're engaging with the bottom of the barrel in terms of female character, or if having random flings and transactional sex is for her a way of life, or nothing serious and she doesn't expect anything from you besides sex, then there is no problem, but I don't come across many women that fit this bill. 

It's understandable that young men would engage in such activities, but to continue them well into adulthood is obviously problematic and there's no reasonable justification for it, at least not for 99.999% of men. You could make a pie chart of the reasons grown men keep doing this, but you'd need a microscope to find the part labeled "healthy motivation."

Edited July 7 by Joshe

[Emerald]

6 hours ago, Joshe said:

It's understandable that young men would engage in such activities, but to continue them well into adulthood is obviously problematic and there's no reasonable justification for it, at least not for 99.999% of men. You could make a pie chart of the reasons grown men keep doing this, but you'd need a microscope to find the part labeled "healthy motivation."

Yes, I totally agree with this.

If I guy is over the age of 32 and is still focused on doing pick-up and going out to clubs to meet 9s and 10s, it just comes across as a bit immature.

Funny story... I remember going to a club once with my friend Asha (we were 20 and 19, respectively) and these mid-30-something guys (or older) came in wearing the tackiest suits I've ever seen (like big-shots)... and they started awkwardly dancing up on us and other girls in the club. And it was a crowded club and we couldn't go left or right.

So, Asha started subtly backing up as she was dancing because she had about a foot of space behind her... and I started subtly backing up as I was dancing (making it look like a dance move to be subtle)... as one of these older suited guys was gyrating towards us.

And I eventually collided with Asha and we were both pressed up against one another backing up. And she eventually collided into another woman behind us... and all three of us we dancing and subtly backing up towards the wall as the guy continued his awkward gyration dance moving closer and closer until he was doing his gyration on me and grinding his crotch into me... and I squirmed out of the way as he turned the focus of his gyration dance elsewhere.

That's the kind of immaturity that it feels like, when a man who's beyond his early 30s is still doing pick-up.

But if a guy is under the age of 25 or is really struggling to meet women, I can get why they'd want to learn pick-up. 

For very young guys (proximal to college age), it's just the phase of life to want to sexually experiment... and pick-up is a way to make that happen. It's a similar motivation to why young people want to go to clubs.

And for guys struggling to meet women, I can see it feeling like the only solution.

But for the latter group, they'd do SOOO much better to just develop a warm social circle. And they'd be a lot more likely to develop a relationship from it that feels good to be in.

Like, I had TONS of nerdy guy friends as a teenager because I was a gothy nerd myself. And they all lost their virginity by their mid to late teens because... they had a warm social circle with both male and female friends (myself being one of them).

Like, we were all always hanging out and getting into teenage shenanigans. So, these relationships and hook-ups naturally happened.

Like my most late-bloomer nerdy friend, didn't lose his virginity until he was 19. And at the time, by comparison, that was quite late as most lost their virginity by 16 or 17.

But the main common denominator with these nerdy guys is that they were social and had both male and female friends. So, my bias was "All the nerdy guy friends that I know are having sex with either me or one of my nerdy girl friends."

It never occurred to me that guys would even have that much of a struggle finding a sexual partner, as even the most awkward guys that I knew were getting girlfriends and having sex.

There were even guys (that I didn't like) who were in my broader social circle of acquaintance friends that had the combo of being unattractive, awkward, unhygienic, and poor of character... and they still had sex and got girlfriends.

And I just feel like pick-up stunts guys who are isolated and struggling to meet women because it keeps them isolated and held back from socializing and building community around themselves. They just keep thinking taking actions that will isolate and stunt them more.

 

[Emerald]

8 hours ago, aurum said:

And how do you ensure that your platonic social circle will even allow you to approach the women you want to date? Or that you don't give yourself golden handcuffs by placing yourself in the wrong kind of role?

You have to think ahead about this kind of thing. It does not just happen.

Again, you don't have to do "pickup". 

But you do need to plan and initiate conversations with people. 

I'm not saying to do pick-up inside the warm social circle. It's a good way to get kicked out of one.

What I'm saying is to have a warm social circle. And then, if one decides to do pick-up to do it as normal with women at bars and clubs or other places like that.

And yes, it's important to plan and initiate conversions. 

[Princess Arabia]

43 minutes ago, Emerald said:

It never occurred to me that guys would even have that much of a struggle finding a sexual partner, as even the most awkward guys that I knew were getting girlfriends and having sex.

There were even guys (that I didn't like) who were in my broader social circle of acquaintance friends that had the combo of being unattractive, awkward, unhygienic, and poor of character... and they still had sex and got girlfriends.

And I just feel like pick-up stunts guys who are isolated and struggling to meet women because it keeps them isolated and held back from socializing and building community around themselves. They just keep thinking taking actions that will isolate and stunt them more.

I agree with this.

[Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

I agree with this.

Yeah. I think the issue now-a-days is that young people aren't socializing face-to-face as often... and community has worn thin.

So, there's a lot of young guys who would have been just fine 15 years ago... who are now struggling a lot just to meet women.

Then add to that, all this misleading internet propaganda that just feeds off of the normal male insecurities and exacerbates misogyny to a socially crippling degree to feel more protected against those insecurities.

And it's leading to a society where a significant population of young people (especially men) are not developing romantic/sexual relationships.

Society needs to come up with some kind of support structure for socializing and building community... especially for young people.

[Princess Arabia]

4 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Yeah. I think the issue now-a-days is that young people aren't socializing face-to-face as often... and community has worn thin.

So, there's a lot of young guys who would have been just fine 15 years ago... who are now struggling a lot just to meet women.

Then add to that, all this misleading internet propaganda that just feeds off of the normal male insecurities and exacerbates misogyny to a socially crippling degree to feel more protected against those insecurities.

And it's leading to a society where a significant population of young people (especially men) are not developing romantic/sexual relationships.

Society needs to come up with some kind of support structure for socializing and building community... especially for young people.

All one has to do is look at how things used to be say 10-20yrs ago and beyond to see there weren't these kinds of problems back then. Social media, I think, like you said has contributed to a lot of this issue. Plus, as i've always said, people will air their problems quicker than what they're happy about from focusing on the lack. That's how we usually operate so we'll see more people with relationship problems than people who are doing just fine in them and meeting people left and right. Every time I go out I see plenty of couples and they don't strike me as the type that just hang on social media everyday. Matter of fact, the happy looking ones don't even have their phones out much. It's actually weird now seeing young people out alone and even older folks. Lots are just home googling and Youtubing and Instagramming while people are out in the summer having fun and meeting people - if that's what they like to do.

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

All one has to do is look at how things used to be say 10-20yrs ago and beyond to see there weren't these kinds of problems back then. Social media, I think, like you said has contributed to a lot of this issue. Plus, as i've always said, people will air their problems quicker than what they're happy about from focusing on the lack. That's how we usually operate so we'll see more people with relationship problems than people who are doing just fine in them and meeting people left and right. Every time I go out I see plenty of couples and they don't strike me as the type that just hang on social media everyday. Matter of fact, the happy looking ones don't even have their phones out much. It's actually weird now seeing young people out alone and even older folks. Lots are just home googling and Youtubing and Instagramming while people are out in the summer having fun and meeting people - if that's what they like to do.

Yeah, definitely. There seems to be a split where some people are as social as they've ever been and others are struggling with isolation.

[Princess Arabia]

1 minute ago, Emerald said:

Yeah, definitely. There seems to be a split where some people are as social as they've ever been and others are struggling with isolation.

True.