The Impossible Task: Breaking Someone Out of Ideology

[Aaron p]

This question has been weighing on my mind for weeks now: how do you reveal someone’s ideological prison to themselves—especially when they don’t even know they’re in one?

 

I feel qualified to speak on this, because I lived it. I was once a deeply indoctrinated evangelical Christian—preaching the “good news” with full conviction, thoroughly brainwashed by what was, in hindsight, a religious cult. I wasn’t just a believer; I was a mouthpiece for it. I truly thought I was serving God.

What’s more interesting, though, is that I had a very close friend back then. We both studied theology together. We were both fiercely sincere, deeply philosophical—truth-seekers, or so I thought. But while my path pulled me toward mysticism and direct experience, his drew him toward dogma—specifically, Roman Catholicism, with all its ritual and hierarchy.

 

Now, in fairness, coming from a Protestant background, it made a certain kind of sense. Catholicism offers a lineage—a structure that feels older, purer, more complete. And I believe that was the hook for him. Protestantism splinters into countless denominations, each more chaotic than the last. There’s a kind of madness in that fragmentation, and Catholicism, by contrast, offered him order.

I could see it clearly. His shift wasn’t just theological—it was psychological. He was seeking stability. But the strange part was this: no matter how precisely I articulated the limitations of his thinking, no matter how lovingly or intelligently I tried to point it out—it didn’t land. Not only that, but the clearer I became, the more entrenched he got. It was as if the more I exposed the illusion, the deeper he fell into it.

 

I even tried to explain: yes, maps and symbols have their place—but they are not the territory. And from where I stood, he was getting lost in the symbols, while I was moving toward the source itself. Ironically, he saw it the other way around. To him, my mysticism was symbolic, and his sacrament was reality.

 

 

It was surreal.

 

It reminded me a bit of my father. He was a fiery Pentecostal-leaning Baptist preacher—another man devoutly entangled in ideology. But with him, it’s a different case. He’s older, less flexible, and you almost expect a certain rigidity with age. But still—the same core phenomenon. The same inability to truly see outside the frame.

 

So now I’m trying to isolate what this mechanism is. What is the thing—the inner faculty—that allows one person to break free of delusion, and keeps another trapped inside it, convinced they’re awake?

 

So far, I haven’t found a precise answer. Just vague intuitions like: “people are where they’re at,” or “you can’t change them unless they’re ready.” All of which is true, but doesn’t satisfy.

 

 

 

________________________________________

Have you ever encountered someone so entangled in their worldview that no matter how gently or brilliantly you tried to show them—nothing got through? It's like their mind is armoured against the very thing they claim to seek.

Is it just stubbornness? Or is it something deeper?

[James123]

1 minute ago, Aaron p said:

Have you ever encountered someone so entangled in their worldview that no matter how gently or brilliantly you tried to show them—nothing got through? It's like their mind is armoured against the very thing they claim to seek.

Is it just stubbornness? Or is it something deeper?

If one suffers or ready, you don't need to tell anything. 

Out of ideology is impossible, because every word is a belief.

One has to let go everything and anything.

[Hojo]

You have to logically trap them at all exist points. They pretty much have to let you do it you cant force it.

Edited July 2 by Hojo

[theleelajoker]

Great questions. You can take ideology IMO the same as believe. Doesn't really matter what's about.

The basis for change in my experience is safety. Both physical and psychological / emotional safety. Share food, touch, openness, calm eye contact.

This aligns closely with trust and feeling the other's intention. You feel safe that the other person won't hurt but rather wants the best for you.

Acceptance instead of rejection is next. You feel that you won't be rejected for being who you are.  You are also not afraid that the other person leaves because you either do or say sth "strange" or because you don't do or say something. Everything and anything can come up and you feel that the other is cool with it. 

Understanding/ empathy is also crucial. You feel that the other person can take your perspective and (tries to) get you as best as possible. You are honestly interested in getting to know the others experience of reality. 

Sense of humor, positivity and lightness as overarching vibe, but also wherever it seems fitting. It's like salt, you need it in the right amount without overdoing it. There is sadness, anger, etc first? Allow it. Glas is sometimes half empty, that's just the way it is. No sugarcoating. But once the "negative" stuff is it out, make the process light again. Point out authentically things you like in the other person,or things that are worthwhile mentioning but outside of the others perspective. 

Breath. Be patient. Be silent sometimes. Presence alone does make a big difference. 

When you reached that point where there is comfortable connection with each other, then people often change their beliefs themselves because they intuitively know it has been hurting them. 

Can't fake any of those points in my experience. The more you apply these for yourself, the easier you change your beliefs, the more successful you'll become in doing it with others. 

Edited July 2 by theleelajoker

[saif2]

2 hours ago, Aaron p said:

no matter how precisely I articulated the limitations of his thinking, no matter how lovingly or intelligently I tried to point it out—it didn’t land. Not only that, but the clearer I became, the more entrenched he got. It was as if the more I exposed the illusion, the deeper he fell into it.

 

Your willingness to let go of your deeply held beliefs, will create an atmosphere for a journey of exploration, sometime this will inspire him to do the same thing. How come you are so sure?

[Salvijus]

Being right is not always the most appropriate thing to do. It's more about how appropriate rather than right you are that matters. An appropriate action in alignment with the heart will always lead to the upliftment of the Whole in some way and that's all that matters. 

Edited July 2 by Salvijus

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Aaron p said:

So now I’m trying to isolate what this mechanism is. What is the thing—the inner faculty—that allows one person to break free of delusion, and keeps another trapped inside it, convinced they’re awake?

So far, I haven’t found a precise answer.

Oh, that's super clear. I found the precise answer:

The only way to break feel of illusion is to care about truth.

The key insight is this: no one cares about truth. Which is why you cannot help them. There cannot be a cure for not caring about truth.

You will notice no ideological person cares about truth. If you want to save them you have to get them to realize that truth is the highest value in the world and that nothing they call truth is the same as caring about truth.

Edited July 2 by Leo Gura

[Aaron p]

25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Oh, that's super clear. I found the precise answer:

The only way to break feel of illusion is to care about truth.

The key insight is this: no one cares about truth. Which is why you cannot help them. There cannot be a cure for not caring about truth.

You will notice no ideological person cares about truth. If you want to save them you have to get them to realize that truth is the highest value in the world and that nothing they call truth is the same as caring about truth.

Interesting. What's even more interesting is the fact that my friend who started to gravitate towards Roman Catholicism claimed that the very thing that he was pursuing and which led him to Roman Catholicism was truth. 

It's also kind of clouded and not clear because I'm mature enough now to recognize that there is truth sustained through religion... Granted it's extremely disjointed very symbolic and unnecessarily convoluted, it is woven very loosely through the fabric of religion. I know that the energy of Jesus Christ and Roman Catholicism has certain vibrations of truth in the form of symbols. I think it's likely that my friend resonated with these symbols (like the idea of being born again in Christianity which is a clear and obvious symbol representing enlightenment). So he was kind of pursuing truth it was just extremely corrupted...

Is it possible that a person actually can legitimately care about truth but there are just varying degrees of devotion to it? Could it be that someone who claims to follow truth but who is stuck in the mud of religion is a legitimate seeker of truth but they simply lack the consciousness or epistemic skill to decipher and differentiate between that which is symbolic, man-made ritual and that which is actual truth.

Could it be a lack of epistemic skill in this instance, or is it still just reservations about how much truth they are willing to receive/admit? @Leo Gura

Edited July 2 by Aaron p

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Aaron p said:

 claimed that the very thing that he was pursuing and which led him to Roman Catholicism was truth.

Of course he did. They all fucking do that.

They don't even know the difference between truth-seeking and beliefs.

Quote

So he was kind of pursuing truth it was just extremely corrupted...

No. He was never pursuing truth. He never cared about truth and he never did inquiry.

Believing human stories is not inquiry.

Quote

Is it possible that a person actually can legitimately care about truth but there are just varying degrees of devotion to it?

No, because if one cared about truth one would do inquiry.

Quote

Could it be that someone who claims to follow truth but who is stuck in the mud of religion is a legitimate seeker of truth but they simply lack the consciousness or epistemic skill to decipher and differentiate between that which is symbolic, man-made ritual and that which is actual truth.

Sure, if you put it like that. Lack of consciousness explains all human nonsense.

- - - - - -

When I say caring about truth, I mean a very specific inquiring attitude of mind. I do not mean believing that one's worldview is true. Holding a worldview is NOT caring about truth. Caring about truth means that you discard all worldviews and question reality from scratch. If you are unwilling to do that, you do not care about truth, you are full of shit.

Edited July 3 by Leo Gura

[Joshe]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

If you are unwilling to do that, you do not care about truth, you are full of shit.

lol. Touché 

[Princess Arabia]

You're assuming there's a someone there with an ideology. The ideology makes up the someone and their identity. Think you can just ask someone to commit suicide and they just easily oblige. What is ego but a bunch of ideologies, beliefs , ideas and so on. I keep saying there's no person there, no one in these bodies and it's just flinched at. There's no one to give up an ideology. That ideology is an apparent separate entity all on it's own, it has to 'die' on it's own. The so-called person didn't choose to believe that ideology, it happened all on it's own, so it has to fall away on it's own. To give up an ideology for another is death to the existing ideology. A part of the person dies. Most of the time it's replaced by another and if there is no replacement, the existing ideology stays home until it's kicked out of the garden. It's the same as an addiction, out with the old in with the new. The ego hangs on this way. It fights for it's existence and a mere conversation by another ego isn't going to do the trick. Another belief has to take it's place and another and another and another to form a new ideology system. That's what the person is made of, not the body. The body is it's own thing.

[Hojo]

@Aaron pIf he was interested in death or God  then he would ask why the hell is this leading me toward Catholicism. Ask him if he even considered any other religion. Has he studied hinduism at all or any other religion? People will automatically fall back into their original religion because they believe that religion has something to do with God at all.

All of this stuff is part of the construct when you die you leave Earth. Catholicism is on Earth. Hinduism is on Earth too it dosent exist outside the self contained system. Gods outside the self contained system. If he just falls back into any religion without looking around he would see there is no right religion because it has nothing to do with God. If you dont leave where you started you cant find God because you will start believing their corrupt lies like you can somehow do something bad in Gods eyes.

Catholic priests are commonly referred to as "Father"

Jesus - 'And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.'

What is this in the open blatant blasphemy. Catholicism is like a satan religion.

Edited July 3 by Hojo

[Leo Gura]

See, if he really cared about truth, the #1 question he would ask is, How do I know Catholicism is true? And if he was honest, he would have to admit to himself that he does not and cannot know. Which would require him to drop it. But of course he has no interest in that.

It's very, very simple. To every Christian: You have no idea if Christianity is true. None. This is a fact. Nothing you say will ever invalidate this fact. Th problem is that you're just not honest with yourself. And that's simply because you do not care about truth.

All it takes to see that Christianity isn't true, is honesty. You have no idea if Jesus even existed or what his thoughts were.

But if you refuse to be honest, there's nothing anyone can do to help you. You have locked yourself in a cage and swallowed the key.

Edited July 3 by Leo Gura

[theleelajoker]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

See, if he really cared about truth, the #1 question he would ask is, How do I know Catholicism is true? And if he was honest, he would have to admit to himself that he does not and cannot know. Which would require him to drop it. But of course he has no interest in that.

You may need to learn this critical thinking first. You say it's not having interest, but what about ability?

Moreover, as long as you're afraid, you tend to hold on to things to avoid the emptiness. Subconsciously, we know we are deluding ourselves. But to admit this consciously, I need to feel safe enough to do so. 

Example: you think Party X is the right party to vote for in the next election. Then I say: "But it's not true. It's wrong. You have to care about truth! Question yourself, and believe something else"

Most likely not gonna work. You can't change what you believe without having an experience that allows you to do that. And that experience is more than "caring about truth", although that's what it comes down to in the end. Curiosity, safety must be  > fear 

 

[Leo Gura]

@theleelajoker If you truly cared about truth, you would find the way. That's the magic of caring.

Do you think I was born with the ability to find truth? The ability came from caring.

Of course there is a ton of bad social conditioning people have.

Edited July 3 by Leo Gura

[Salvijus]

Awareness is the only cure for self-deception. It's better to inspire them to grow in awareness through whichever path they resonate with rather than try to change their minds and they will find the way. 

Edited July 3 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

The problem with psychedelics is that it gives you awareness of the superconcious but doesn't give you much awareness of your subconscious. And unless you illuminate your subconscious, your trips become distorted by the defiled subconscious. Tho psychedelics seemingly rise awareness, it doesn't help with self deception much because self deception lies in the subconscious, not the superconcious. Without doing the proper cleansing and illumination of the subconscious, psychedelics become just an ego trip. 

[Aaron p]

6 hours ago, Salvijus said:

Awareness is the only cure for self-deception. It's better to inspire them to grow in awareness through whichever path they resonate with rather than try to change their minds and they will find the way. 

@Salvijus see I thought I could weaponise the truth too, just beat him over the fucking head with it until all of his delusions figuratively bled out of his head. But that nope, this was ineffective also. Every blow I landed only strengthened his faith in Jesus, more perhaps that it wasn't actually strengthening his faith but actually deconstructing it in a part of his mind and he just appeared to become stronger in his "faith" (denial) as a means of holding a shield up. Obviously reactionary responses are indicative of psychological defense mechanisms, although this is hard for me to navigate because there are some defense mechanisms that are good...I think.

This also ties in with one of the most powerful insights I've ever had which is essentially that the vast majority of human beings that exist on this ball exhibit a very poor ability to actually think (not that I am perfect at it, I still parrot)

I know this is what Leo says. I think this is a better way to put it.... Up until now I've just been calling everyone dumbasses, which is probably less useful terminology 

 

Edited July 3 by Aaron p

[theleelajoker]

5 hours ago, Salvijus said:

The problem with psychedelics is that it gives you awareness of the superconcious but doesn't give you much awareness of your subconscious. And unless you illuminate your subconscious, your trips become distorted by the defiled subconscious. Tho psychedelics seemingly rise awareness, it doesn't help with self deception much because self deception lies in the subconscious, not the superconcious. Without doing the proper cleansing and illumination of the subconscious, psychedelics become just an ego trip. 

Wow I think that's a great description 

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, Aaron p said:

see I thought I could weaponise the truth too, just beat him over the fucking head with it until all of his delusions figuratively bled out of his head.

Words of truth are more like poetry and art. The function of poetry is to inspire the hearts of other people and make them open, not to submarine-sandwich them in a new thought structure. When their heart is open, they will develop their own thought structure inspired from within. They will become authentic rather than just parroting ideas. 

Edited July 3 by Salvijus