What is meaning?

[Sugarcoat]

5 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Form is always form, and you can't escape it, because you are that, but you are also the nature of the form. If you're closed to your nature, life is hard and a trap. If you're open, it's free, and beauty manifests. But that doesn't mean that if a misfortune happens to you, your entire human structure will obey its genetic programming, and you will suffer. I guess that if you are always open for years little by little the human structure gets less sharp and suffering can dissapear in big extent 

Nice. So yea us humans ultimately want to suffer less and be more happy, and some say we long for our non dual nature. So it’s two ways to go about it, you can improve yourself and your life on human level and create as much happiness you can that way, or you can open yourself and that can as you say make human structure less sharp, maybe it “deactivates” it a bit, and lessen suffering and increase happiness that way, and simultaneously fulfill that “longing” for our nature. Both seem somewhat difficult tho. 

Edited July 9 by Sugarcoat

[Guest Nilsi]

On 8.7.2025 at 6:12 PM, Carl-Richard said:

Nothing is more boring than when relative discussions get derailed into the absolute. We were just giving examples of meaning, but now you want me to ground my a priori assumptions? Nowhere did I say what I'm saying is absolute.

It’s not about „grounding“ your a priori assumptions in some absolute sense, but rather about discussing what ends those assumptions serve - like “holism,” “health,” “order,” and so on.

Don’t you think it’s fair to question this? Because you were framing it as if meaning were absolutely (!) grounded in biology and all the things you were describing, when in reality you were just saying: „something is meaningful insofar as it serves my a priori commitment to a biological-realist conception of ‘health’.“

Obviously, then, your a priori assumptions are what determine what you call “meaning,” so how is it “boring” to make that explicit? 

Edited July 10 by Nilsi

[zazen]

Meaning ordinarily is thought to be found in a purpose which has objective ends to be achieved. So we think we find meaning in walking a path, which is a means to an end. But because existence is endless, true meaning and purpose is a means to the endless. The world of form is a formality in which the formless plays. 

There are meanings and purposes found in the world of form, yet people walking these paths still struggle to find meaning in them. Because as long as you have a means to an end, the meaning will eventually come to an end with it.  In the world of form, temporary meaning is found in temporary purposes - once one purpose is fulfilled we look for the next. Child becomes student, student becomes employee, employee becomes boss, boss becomes parent which becomes grandparent - but whats the grand purpose and meaning? 

In the world of the formless, there is no form to have a utility, to have a means to BE through and a purpose to strive towards, yet it is itself meaningful and purposeful because it is BEing - and being is the ultimate meaning and purpose. So we don't ordinarily walk towards meaning - we are meaning itself walking. Worldly purposes are purposeful and meaningful only because BEing and BEings walk through them.

Remember the saying - we are human beings have a spiritual experience? It's also true that we are spiritual beings or BEing itself, having a human experience. The world of form is a formality where the formless plays.

If meaning is being, then what is being? Being is be-longing. We have a longing to be, but to be what? Alive itself which is being itself. But alive at what level and intensity? Cosmically of course - as cheesy at that sounds. We fulfill this longing for the whole in parts  - along a ladder of belonging which starts in a small circle that expands . First we belong to a family unit, then a tribe, then a nation, then a religion that is larger than a nation - religion is the circle at the threshold between being a circle and demolishing the circle to belong to the cosmic.

The tragedy of today is that we have forgotten cosmic belonging while dismantling all smaller belongings - we are't held by any tradition yet are not embraced by the transcendent. We are essentially astronauts with cords cut off, floating in space but not yet at home in space itself - not yet a star among stars, shining bright and alive at the peak - enlightened yet embodied.

Edited July 10 by zazen
Hella grammar mistakes

[theleelajoker]

10 minutes ago, zazen said:

Meaning ordinarily is thought to be found in a purpose which has objective ends to be achieved. So we think we find meaning in walking a path, which is means to an end. But because existence is endless, true meaning and purpose is a means to the endless. The world of form is a formality in which the formless plays. 

There are meanings and purposes found in the world of form, yet people walking these paths still struggle to find meaning in them. Because as long as you have means to an end, the meaning will come to an end with it.  In the world of form, temporary meaning is found in temporary purposes - once one purpose is fulfilled we look for the next. Child becomes student, student becomes employee, employee becomes boss, boss becomes parent which becomes grandparent - but whats the grand purpose and meaning? 

In the world of the formless, there is no form to have a utility, to have a means to BE and a purpose to strive towards, yet it is itself meaningful and purposeful because it is BEing - and being is the ultimate meaning and purpose. So we don't ordinarily walk towards meaning - we are meaning itself walking. Worldly purposes are purposeful and meaningful only because BEing and BEings walk through them.

Remember the sayings - we are human beings have a spiritual experience? It's also true that we are spiritual beings or BEing itself having a human experience. The world of form is a formality where the formless plays.

If meaning is being, then what is being? Being is be-longing. We have a longing to be, but to be what? Alive itself which is being itself. But alive at what level and intensity? Cosmically of course - as cheesy at that sounds. We fulfill this longing for the whole in parts  - along a ladder of belonging which starts in a small circle that expands . First we belong to a family unit, then a tribe, then a nation, then a religion that is larger than a nation -yet religion is the circle at the threshold between being a circle and demolishing the circle to belong to the cosmic.

The tragedy of today is that we have forgotten the cosmic belonging while dismantling all smaller belongings - not held by any tradition but not yet embraced the transcendent. We are essentially astronauts with cords cut off, floating in space but not yet at home in space itself - not yet a star among stars, shining bright and alive at the peak - enlightened yet embodied.

 

OK wow enjoyed reading that. And resonates very much. 

@zazenNice metaphor at the end, with the the astronauts in space. 

So putting these ideas into practice means realizing and living the connection to the cosmic, to everything and everyone? It means not putting any value in achievements, doing but feeling content just being and creating?

 

[UnbornTao]

 

On 7/9/2025 at 8:23 PM, Breakingthewall said:

Unlimited Frame is a way of speaking; Frame is intrinsically limited. Let's look at it from another perspective: the absolute is limitlessness in itself; it is the absence of limits, absolute potential. It's not something, or someone, or consciousness; it's openness. This isn't understood by the mind because "openness" or "limitlessness" don't mean anything. You have to open yourself to it. As a human, you are closed by default. 

We are a structure that occurs, a possibility that is happening. The fact of the absence of limits makes it inevitable that infinite relationships occur, that structure and synchronize with each other. The manifestation of reality is infinite forms; the absolute is absolute potential. In those forms, a node of consciousness occurs: I, who perceive forms, other planes of reality between infinite planes, and can perceive their absolute essence. The absolute is not perception; it is what makes perception possible. As it is possible, it is, and is being now.

Any form is limited in all directions and dimensions and infinitely related to infinite forms. They are all the same: absolute potential manifesting. If you shift your focus and perceive yourself in your true nature, you realize what you are: the bottomlessness, the total openness that is everything. Potential equals real; manifestation is circumstantial; form appears or not; potential is. That is you. If you open to it, it is unequivocal. There is no more; it is the end game. Any "more" is form; it is in the dimension of manifestation.

If you don't like this explanation, it's ok, but if you say something insulting after I spend 15 min writing to explain as clear as I can and then you will show that your only goal is being above. Useless, but your choice 

@Breakingthewall  Not to come off as a jerk again, but you need to do some serious work on assumptions. Entertain the possibility that the truth of the matter is actually unknown - especially regarding 'the absolute.' It is neither potential, openness, nor an absence or a filling. It is whatever it is and remains up for grabs. We can leave it at that - or "mu." 

By the way, I'd like to acknowledge that we might be facing some language barriers here.

Openness as a principle is relative. Consider that for something to be open, the context of space has to be presupposed. It's true that an open mental state is invaluable for learning and contemplation, but it also needs to be paired with 'rootedness' - having your experience grounded in reality and accurate distinctions. Otherwise, you become off-balance, and that openness turns into mere pretension. Without being grounded, your ability to recognize your own dishonesty and ignorance gets diminished.

It can also be useful to consider the act of communicating and how it differs from spouting beliefs or conclusions. Communication is about conveying your experience as it is so that another can grasp it for themselves. The keyword here being 'experience.' What exactly that is hasn't been fully grasped by us yet, but the term gives us a direction to look nonetheless.

We can keep exploring meaning now.

Edited July 11 by UnbornTao

[Breakingthewall]

21 hours ago, zazen said:

The tragedy of today is that we have forgotten cosmic belonging while dismantling all smaller belongings - we are't held by any tradition yet are not embraced by the transcendent. We are essentially astronauts with cords cut off, floating in space but not yet at home in space itself - not yet a star among stars, shining bright and alive at the peak - enlightened yet embodied.

Better that than the slavery of the tribe imo. Freedom or death. Only fetuses are tied to an umbilical cord, independent beings are alone. Nobody said that freedom is free or easy, but the other option is finished, it's moment has passed. There's no going back, only forward.

[zazen]

22 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

 

OK wow enjoyed reading that. And resonates very much. 

@zazenNice metaphor at the end, with the the astronauts in space. 

So putting these ideas into practice means realizing and living the connection to the cosmic, to everything and everyone? It means not putting any value in achievements, doing but feeling content just being and creating?

 

Thanks man. I think that's what it's about, like you said - living in connection to the cosmic. You can still value things, achievement etc but they aren't our gods - they are peripheral, not central. As in, you anchor the human experience in a spiritual experience which is the core of being.

That's why I wrote enlightened yet embodied. But to add more context, maybe enlightenment isn't what we're after, or should necessarily strive for. True enlightenment where you dissolve into the light - risks becoming untethered to reality, duality or form. This can be very un-settling. You are so blissed out or shocked by your mental concept of reality shattering - that you sit there stunned and either unable to comprehend it or surrender to it, but surrender from living in the world itself also.

At that level you are simply creation, not creating. You exist as a glow, not a overflow. Some masters or ''gurus'' then need to depend on disciples to take care of them, they neglect their bodies entirely. Others return to form and share and act in the world. Whether religions knew it or not, I think this wariness of the spiritual realm is half true in that it can lead to dissolution so totally that it either makes you insane or inert. No doubt there was also just skepticism about it and a power trip to protect orthodoxy, but they aren't entirely wrong - Christianity was wary of mysticism, Judaisim of Kabbalah, Islam of Sufism.

Maybe its better to strive for a spiritual life - where you are inspired, in-spirited, embodied yet alive and full of spirit. You don't become the ''light'' or enlightened, you are lighting, charged with spirit - still channeled through the vessel of the body, still embodied and grounded. The point of transcendence isn't to transcend form, but to have the transcendent (soul/spirit/source) transform you within and through form. Then you don't just sit there glowing, but overflowing. Religion in some ways pointed to this - in that a danger lies in blowing out the flame entirely to become the fire in totality. A flame is only held by a candle or a lamp - a vessel, or a form.

There is a place for being pure presence, but there is a place also for being a presence that plays in the process of life.  Come to think of it, religion didn't even entirely introduce new purposes to humanity - people still had the same ones before hand and pursued them - making a family, a living, being part of community and enjoying life. Religion simply sanctified them and aimed to point to the greater purpose of worldly purposes, therefore providing greater meaning to all these means to their ends, therefore providing a meaning that is endless. And yet, religion still has its trapping and tries to monopolize truth. This is why throwing the baby out with the bathwater isn't entirely wise - as in throwing religion into the bin as the new age community does. It's a fine line we must tread.

Edited July 11 by zazen

[Breakingthewall]

39 minutes ago, zazen said:

At that level you are simply creation, not creating. You exist as a glow, not a overflow. Some masters or ''gurus'' then need to depend on disciples to take care of them, they neglect their bodies entirely.

These people used to be Indians, who came from a tradition of denial in which manifest reality was disdained as illusion or maya and a dissociative attitude of detachment from the body was promoted as a lofty ideal.

Doing nothing was considered superior to doing (strange, perhaps reality acted out of some kind of error that these wise men corrected), and a sort of narcissism pushed toward ecstasy, where the master was venerated and nurtured while staring into space. Identifying this as enlightenment because they claimed it is baseless. I would say it's simply a narcissistic power dynamic. Now we have sadhguru, the guru 2.0, who elevates the indian narcissism to another dimension without the boredom of being static.

[theleelajoker]

Yeah reflecting on it now, I aim to be as practical as I can be about what one might call spirituality or "enlightenment". So you are awake, now what? What's next? Whatcha gonna do? It's all about action here in this plane of existence, experiencing. 

There was an old trip report, basically saying "life is about feeling good".  You could rephrase that to living a "fulfilled life", knowing eg that all emotions are part of it, embracing sadness instead for only aiming for happiness. Which then transforms sadness into someone desirable, which makes you feel good

Transcending material stuff did not give me fulfillment. Going deep into the material world did not do that for me either. So let's do both. Interacting here was much as possible, respecting my physical form while nurturing my connection to...well, I don't know what but whatever "it" is.

[Carl-Richard]

On 10.7.2025 at 11:05 AM, Nilsi said:

Because you were framing it as if meaning were absolutely (!) grounded in biology and all the things you were describing, when in reality you were just saying: „something is meaningful insofar as it serves my a priori commitment to a biological-realist conception of ‘health’.“

Obviously, then, your a priori assumptions are what determine what you call “meaning,” so how is it “boring” to make that explicit? 

I wasn't. I'm eternally aware that everything I'm saying at all times is a limited and compartmentalized perspective. But it indeed just becomes boring to repeat that all the time. Unless you have a specific injunction or alternative when pointing out the limitations of a perspective, it quickly becomes boring.

Edited July 12 by Carl-Richard

[UnbornTao]

Excerpt From
Ending Unnecessary Suffering
Peter Ralston

Quote

The Search for Meaning

One of the more important conceptual-activities driving us is the search for meaning. We want to feel we are meaningful and have a meaningful life. This is a core desire for almost everyone. But it seems most people feel they fall short of its achievement. This is a tricky subject to tackle, especially because we are so deeply attached to its pursuit.

We want to have meaning, but often don’t know how to accomplish that condition or what it would look like. From this position, we tend to reach for ideals as the answer to our problem. This does provide an imagined goal we think once attained will provide the meaning we seek. But ideals are only imagined, and they are most often unreasonable if not unattainable.

As we’ve seen, the creation of ideals is motivated by our deficiencies—as in our lack of meaning—and the idea that attaining ideals will fix us. They will not. The ideal is always about attaining something not had, and that makes it, by definition, something outside of our self-experience. Yet the resolution for our deficiencies can only happen within us, not without.

This lack of meaning can be tackled in many ways. You might just feel meaningless and hopeless and live life as a loser in your own mind. You could focus on some ideals that you are pursuing and this may suggest that you are on your way to attain meaning, thus giving you meaning in the interim. You might simply compare yourself to an ideal thought to be needed in order to be meaningful and find yourself wanting. You can wallow in sorrow and self-deprecation, or keep distracted with life activities setting aside the meaning of life for later, or simply assign meaning to your life or self in some way. But as we’ve seen, the demand and desire for meaning so often causes a deep form of suffering.

Even if we don’t find meaning in the life we are living as it is, most often we are too busy with the events of life to focus on our sense of meaninglessness. In this way we keep ourselves distracted. But just like other causes of suffering, the challenge of meaning sits in the background as a constant presence, even if it’s covered up most of the time. Yet in reflective moments, as with the mundane, we indeed encounter it, especially when we question our life path or how our lives are going. What’s also true is the search and pursuit of meaning in life may well be the fuel that unconsciously drives many of our pursuits and decisions.

To get a clearer sense of the role meaning plays in our lives, remember our friend the rabbit. Notice the rabbit doesn’t seek meaning and also doesn’t suffer this malady. We might think the rabbit is just ignorant, but ignorant of what? What does he not know in this case that doesn’t serve him? The need for being a meaningful rabbit? Having a meaningful rabbit life? How would that happen? We can see that the rabbit doesn’t suffer at all by not being burdened with this conceptual search and need. The contrast between a rabbit and us clearly reveals all the meaningless-meaning activities our minds get caught up in.

Living each moment of life is the only meaning the rabbit needs. His life is found in what is, not what isn’t. Just so, each day my cat does his same routines—calling at the window to be let in, eating, napping, calling to go outside, and so on. He doesn’t seem to have any problem or concern that his life is rather mundane or that it should be any other way, and he doesn’t seem to tire of the sameness or lack enthusiasm for each event of life as it occurs. Why? Perhaps a lesson for us?

The truth is life is meaningless. That is not a negative, it’s just the truth. There is no inherent meaning in being a self or in being alive, or even in living a life. Meaning is applied, not found. Our cultural values and social beliefs demand meaning. If we aren’t meaningful then we are considered wrong and insignificant, and this is intolerable. Yet how do we determine whether we have meaning or not?

Again, finding meaning is held as if it’s accomplished from something outside ourselves. We think that meaning can be found and that it exists “out there” in some form that we need to adopt or do or achieve. Consider how this relates to what we’ve seen about the causes of suffering. Being entrenched in the notion that without meaning we are worthless and that meaning is achieved from outside ourselves is the source of significant suffering.

Meaning is self-created, not found. Meaning, like purpose, has to be created. We tend to think that having a purpose will give us meaning. We also think we need to find a purpose, or that purpose will come to us or be given to us, or is found in our destiny. Purpose—other than a self-agenda passing for purpose—has to be consciously created. For that to happen, we have to be responsible for creating it. But for most of us that seems a bridge too far.

As a teacher and facilitator, over the decades I have noticed that people like to be told what to do. At first, I suspect there will be a lot of pushback to this notion. People usually say they never like to be told what to do and want to be independent, in charge, and so on. But look again. Why seek out religions, spiritual practices, advice, self-help books? Why get a personal trainer or life coach, or look for the newest diet, or steps to a better life, or how to be a success, and all the other pursuits that are basically being told what to do?

I noticed early on in my career that people are rarely self-motivated. For example, after being taught a subject, students seldom took it on themselves to investigate it further and train it by themselves. For further training or investigation, they needed something like a drill sergeant to tell them what to do and when to do it. Since that wasn’t a role I cherished, I threatened to set up a tape recorder in the corner barking standard instructions for them to train and put it on a loop. It is the same for training physical skill or for increasing consciousness. This lack of self-motivation and responsibility is a common phenomenon. You may be wondering why I bring it up. It is the same basic dynamic as searching for meaning.

It may seem beyond your personal abilities, but you yourself need to create whatever purpose you attribute meaning to if you want to create a meaningful life. Once created, you have to commit to living it. You can see that none of that is outside yourself. This echoes my assertion that meaning isn’t found, it is created.

What do you consider meaningful? Do you see contributing to others or humanity as meaningful? Do you presume being successful at something provides meaning? Whatever you consider meaningful, then obviously you have to take action toward that end as a lifelong commitment in order to create the meaning you seek—and not just think about it. Again, this is the difference between conceptual-activity and conceptual-action.

If that doesn’t do it for you, then you need to get that meaning is meaningless. Again, this doesn’t mean you are meaningless as a negative, but that existence, and you, have no meaning. Grasp that you are already complete and don’t need some outside influence to complete you or give you meaning. Be happy with simply being. You can give meaning to it or, like our rabbit, be completely OK with simple ordinary daily activities without looking for something else. In any case, recognize that this need for meaning creates suffering and it is all in your mind. You are complete just because you are.

Life has to be given a meaning because of the obvious fact that it has no meaning.
- Henry Miller

 

Edited July 12 by UnbornTao

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

The truth is life is meaningless. That is not a negative, it’s just the truth. There is no inherent meaning in being a self or in being alive, or even in living a life. Meaning is applied, not found. Our cultural values and social beliefs demand meaning. If we aren’t meaningful then we are considered wrong and insignificant, and this is intolerable. Yet how do we determine whether we have meaning or not?

Life has meaning in every dimension and perspective. For example, it can mean suffering in prison or breathing while in a coma or be depressed and then commit suicide, or weight 250 kg and eat 3 kg of ice cream by day. Every micro-vibration that appears in life has infinite significance; it's there because it's absolutely inevitable and necessary for the harmony of the whole. Every step you take reverberates in eternity. It's the flow of the dance of form, a perfect symphony, absolutely synchronized. The meaning of life is life. If you open your eyes, it's obvious. Ralston quotes Henry Miller, who was always drunk and whoring. That was the meaning of his life. And, by the way, the Tropic of Cancer and the Tropic of Capricorn are great.

 

Edited July 12 by Breakingthewall

[UnbornTao]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Life has meaning in every dimension and perspective. For example, it can mean suffering in prison or breathing while in a coma or be depressed and then commit suicide, or weight 250 kg and eat 3 kg of ice cream by day. 

Those are circumstances and actions, wouldn't you say? Reread the entire segment.

[Leo Gura]

A good way to get an experiential hit on what is meaning is to look at meaning in video games.

Observe how video games create meaning and how video games lose meaning when you outplay them.

Observe the process of meaning being created and destroyed.

Edited July 12 by Leo Gura

[Breakingthewall]

11 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Those are circumstances and actions, wouldn't you say? Reread the entire segment.

15 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

 

I understand what Ralston means. Thanks for suggesting I reread it, but it's not necessary. He says that humans, those poor lost children, in their childish ignorance need to give illusory meanings to their empty, sad lives, things like country, family, excellence. (Now the charming, healthy old man laughs condescendingly.) But he knows that nothing makes sense, everything is "this," straightforward, mindless.

He doesn't seem to understand that absolutely everything that happens in reality follows an absolutely perfect order and harmony, that everything is synchronized from the slightest quantum vibration to a speech by Hitler. Everything has an absolute meaning, nothing is better than anything else. Even the silly things Ralston says, addressing simple and easily manipulated people, are caused by the totality of reality; they are inevitable manifestations of that totality. The fact that someone identifies with the Ku Klux Klan has infinite meaning, the same as picking a snot out of your nose. "Meaning" means cause-effect relationship. A movement means what it causes. A red traffic light means there has to be another green one, both caused by a sistem that's caused by a process that's caused by an evolution, to infinity. In short,  It's caused by synchronicity.

Means that absolute infinity, in its development of infinite forms, ends exactly at that traffic light, which comes from a butterfly effect of the destruction of a universe (for example), and because of this cosmic collapse, you receive a fine at home. 

 

[Breakingthewall]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

A good way to get an experiential hit on what is meaning is to look at meaning in video games.

Observe how video games create meaning and how video games lose meaning when you outplay them.

Observe the process of meaning being created and destroyed.

You're equating the game's meaning with your emotional assessment of it. Your emotional assessment is meaning on another level. The emotional meaning you give to a video game doesn't affect the game's intrinsic meaning. The game's meaning is that when you kill the big boss, the game ends. Your emotional meaning (just as real as the game's, but on another level) is that when you finish the game, you're happy because you're given a medal, a diploma, and every newspaper in the world talks about you, but if the big boss kill you, you would be imprisoned for life. It's very meaningful for you, because we equate meaning with emotional programming. Nothing is "very" meaningful, it's emotionally charged or not. For example, if anyone is another Galaxy finish the game, the meaning is the same, but your brain will not secrete neurotransmitters because it is not programmed that way. That programming is just meaning, cause effect relationship, same than everything else. Just seems more meaningful because some chemical process happen to make us move, just meaning in another level. 

Edited Sunday at 11:12 AM by Breakingthewall

[Kuba Powiertowski]

If the meaning we give to life is expressed through our guiding narrative, then the only thing that truly matters to me in this game of meaning-making is that my story and its execution leave room for other stories. It doesn't usurp any superiority—in short: live and let live.

[UnbornTao]

25 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I understand what Ralston means. Thanks for suggesting I reread it, but it's not necessary.

I don't think you do, actually.

 

Edited Sunday at 11:15 AM by UnbornTao

[UnbornTao]

[PurpleTree]

I remember when i was a child.

I always wanted these action figures like robocop, turtles but especially batman.

I would attach so much meaning to these dumb figures like my life would get much better if i had them. And if i didn’t have them i couldn’t be happy. And i would try to guilt trip my mother into buying them.