Are men or women the prize?

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@aurum @Princess Arabia I agree I was being very safe.

This is just my experience, but generally the game of pursuit and prize hinges on value. Meaning through action.

Humans tend to value things they work for and earn. Even if the prize isn't actually that great!

There is an element of the sunk cost fallacy that could play into that. 

I think I speak more on value that is discovered or created. Which is one aspect. But there are also values we have that are more immutable.

 

 

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

That's not how it works.

Women are repusled by men who chase them and sleep with guys who don't care about them.

Chasing a women proves to her than the guy is beneath her and that she can find better.

Woman wants what she can barely hold onto. Like a bird trying to swallow the biggest rat that can fit in its mouth hole until it chokes. Then bird blames the rat for nearly killing her. But bird refuses to swallow small rats. Bird looks for another rat she can barely swallow.

You're thinking about what's good for men who want to have lots of women attracted to them, which is what a lot of male dating coaches teach.

The dynamic that sets up is one of a very well sought after guy with a bunch of desperate women chasing him and competing for him, while he sits on the pedestal of his Feminine without having strong feelings for any woman in particular. And the women go into their Masculine to try to woo and win the guy.

But it's not what's good for a woman's interest and won't lead out to a fulfilling relationship that feels good to her.

And the relationship will fall apart relatively quickly within 1-3 years.... either because he got bored or he cheated... or things got too chaotic with her chasing him around all the time.

Not sure if you'll know the reference, but the dynamic you describe is a bit like the relationship between Carrie and Big in Sex and the City. She's basically obsessed with him and he's indifferent about her, but keeps stringing her along. And he's like this big shot womanizer guy that lots of women throw themselves at.

And that's "women going into their Masculine to chase the man" is unfortunately a very common dynamic because these types of relationship imbalances create all sorts of anxious excitable emotional states.

And it makes them feel more profound than they actually are because it awakens the Masculine Lover archetype within the woman. And she starts trying to give and woo the man.

And for the unseasoned young woman with self-esteem or abandonment issues, it's easy to fall into that dynamic because it matches the chaos of childhood.

But women who want what they can barely hold onto are not setting themselves up to receive what they ACTUALLY want in a relationship dynamic... and are setting themselves up for failure and lots of anxiety.

And that frenetic anxious state is not conducive to a fulfilling longterm relationship nor is it a stable environment to raise children in.

A healthy dynamic is one where the man is highly invested and is the reliable rock, while the woman is able to be stable and focus on raising children (if the couple chooses to have children).

And an inexperienced woman can end up thinking "intense emotions = he's the one". But a woman who's had longterm relationships in the past knows that a good sign for the health of a relationship is a settled comfortable safe feeling.

A good relationship feels like an out-breath, rather than an anxiety inducing longing for what's just out of reach.

The issue here is that you're thinking on too short of a timeline... and when you say "Women are repulsed by men who chase them", that's true if the relationship hasn't been properly established yet and it's just within the first 3 to 6 months.

But the most comfortable and fulfilling relationships last a lot longer than that. And that doesn't happen if the man isn't investing equally or greater than her.

[Emerald]

43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Daniel Balan I don't propose playing games or acting hard to get.

But don't chase women.

There's a difference between chasing and investing.

I'm not advocating for some desperate situation, but one where the guy is clearly invested int he particular woman and wants a future with her in particular.

And that can only develop over the course of months.

[Princess Arabia]

Everything and everywhere in the male/female dynamic screams women are the prize. Why do you think women are looked at and labelled sluts and whores when they're sexually promiscuous or even dress a certain way. Why are men looked at as the don, the man, gets congratulated or whatever, we know the deal, when he's the one being promiscuous or getting laid by the dozen and why do so many men wish to be in those shoes.

Do you think it's because he is the prize? Do you not see how when the prize acts like it's not the prize it's labelled as a slut or whore. It's because the prize has now been levelled down to being the competitor. Men will be looked on in positive ways when they're sexually active because sexually they have won the prize. Yeah, more power to you. Guys don't realize what they're saying to each other when this happens. Guys who call women sluts and whores for sleeping around don't know on a conscious level that they're saying you fool, you have given the prize away. We don't say this to men because there's no prize there. This is just on a sexual level. It's not the sex or sexual organs that makes the woman the prize, not saying that, it's the feminine VS masculine dynamic and the ways they're expressed. This dating section screams women are the prize and I'm not talking about guys wanting to have sex with women. It's shown in very subtle ways. Nothing to do with sex.

Edited June 6 by Princess Arabia

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Tenebroso said:

@Emerald The issue is that in 2025 women are not attracted to the men who would see them as a prize, despite claiming that is what they want. I think the problem is that women want the men they see as the prize to adore them back and be their Prince Charming but these men have so many options that they have no incentive to prioritize one woman over another.

Women's attractions have probably stayed pretty similar over the centuries and millennia that humanity has been around. Human biology and psychology have not changed.

And average women tend to develop attractions to average men. I just think that the attractiveness of the average man escapes most straight men, because they can't fathom of anything attractive about an average guy.

But you must understand that women's attractions to particular men are highly subjective and very personalized. So, it's never a math formula of "if I do x, y, and z, the woman will like me."

So, even if there's a guy who objectively has all the best qualities and is Prince Charming who will make her the prize, there's no guarantee that a given woman will feel that way about him.

It has so much to do with the unique chemistry of two personalities coming together and the communication and banter between them.

And it's very emotional and easy to get swept up with a partner that isn't a good fit based on the chemistry, which feels so profound. The risk of this is increased if the man and woman had childhoods that were traumatic and chaotic... who look for a similar chaos in a partner.

And this is what happens when a woman goes into chase mode where she's putting a particular guy up on a pedestal. 

Strategically, it's a terrible move if the woman wants a good relationship.

But most women need to live to learn how to separate out intense chemistry from questions of compatibility and the question of longterm happiness and relationship sustainability.

And that's a huge learning curve.

[Leo Gura]

49 minutes ago, Emerald said:

You're thinking about what's good for men who want to have lots of women attracted to them

Catching 100 fish or 1 fish takes the same bait.

I've never had lots of women attracted to me. This is a fantasy for most men. This only works for exceptionally attractive men. You ladies assume that the average man is like the top 1% of men. That is a fantasy. That's not how dating is for average or below average men. You grossly overestimate how much attention the average man gets from women. It's 100x less than you think because you're looking at some hot player dating coach. That kind of guy is 1 in 100.

I've never cared about having lots of women attracted to me. Just one. But getting that just one requires the same effort as getting 100.

Edited June 6 by Leo Gura

[Princess Arabia]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I've never cared about having lots of women attracted to me. Just one.

 You're the prize for today, my love. 😘

[Emerald]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Catching 100 fish or 1 fish takes the same bait.

I've never had lots of women attracted to me. This is a fantasy for most men. This only works for exceptionally attractive men. You ladies assume that the average man is like the top 1% of men. That is a fantasy. That's not how dating is for average or below average men. You grossly overestimate how much attention the average man gets from women. It's 100x less than you think because you're looking at some hot player dating coach. That kind of guy is 1 in 100.

I've never cared about having lots of women attracted to me. Just one. But getting that just one requires the same effort as getting 100.

You're talking past my point here.

My point is that the man has to be somewhat more invested in the woman than she is in the man for it to work out long term... or it has to be dead even (which is rare).

It's a very common occurrence that women get swept away with feelings of chemistry with a guy and starts putting a low-investment guy up on a pedestal and chasing him around... regardless of whether he's average or the top 1%... she can end up in a roller coaster of dissatisfaction that doesn't lead out to the kind of relationship dynamic she really wants.

And the attractiveness of the guy in this case is not relevant to the point. It's more of a behavior that women can fall into when she gets attached to a guy who isn't interested in her in particular.

And women who "want what they can barely hold onto" are setting themselves up for failure, because a guy you can barely hold onto just isn't that into you. He's just sticking around for easygoing female companionship and sex.

And to get the kind of relationship you want as a woman, you have to weed out those guys... even if there are feelings and chemistry.

So, a man who seeks a dynamic where he's the aloof guy who's just out of reach of the woman will keep her in her Masculine trying to chase and pursue him... while he doesn't feel much of anything in particular.

And it doesn't have to be multiple women flocking around a particular guy. A woman can just get super obsessed with a guy who's not that into her and she can end up wasting a lot of energy trying to hold onto someone who isn't right for her.

And that dynamic creates an unstable anxious situation that isn't conducive to starting a family.

 

[Raze]

6 minutes ago, Emerald said:

 

My point is that the man has to be somewhat more invested in the woman than she is in the man for it to work out long term... or it has to be dead even (which is rare).

And it doesn't have to be multiple women flocking around a particular guy. A woman can just get super obsessed with a guy who's not that into her and she can end up wasting a lot of energy trying to hold onto someone who isn't right for her.

And that dynamic creates an unstable anxious situation that isn't conducive to starting a family.

 

How is that any different than for the guy if he is pursuing the woman he likes more than she likes him? If anything given that women are the ones to end relationships the majority of the time it seems more likely it’ll fail if the guy is the one who likes her more.

Edited June 6 by Raze

[Tenebroso]

44 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Women's attractions have probably stayed pretty similar over the centuries and millennia that humanity has been around. Human biology and psychology have not changed.

And average women tend to develop attractions to average men. I just think that the attractiveness of the average man escapes most straight men, because they can't fathom of anything attractive about an average guy.

But you must understand that women's attractions to particular men are highly subjective and very personalized. So, it's never a math formula of "if I do x, y, and z, the woman will like me."

So, even if there's a guy who objectively has all the best qualities and is Prince Charming who will make her the prize, there's no guarantee that a given woman will feel that way about him.

It has so much to do with the unique chemistry of two personalities coming together and the communication and banter between them.

And it's very emotional and easy to get swept up with a partner that isn't a good fit based on the chemistry, which feels so profound. The risk of this is increased if the man and woman had childhoods that were traumatic and chaotic... who look for a similar chaos in a partner.

And this is what happens when a woman goes into chase mode where she's putting a particular guy up on a pedestal. 

Strategically, it's a terrible move if the woman wants a good relationship.

But most women need to live to learn how to separate out intense chemistry from questions of compatibility and the question of longterm happiness and relationship sustainability.

And that's a huge learning curve.

So you think naturally women want to be pursued and that is what is best but due to traumatic childhoods and emotional damage they get into these cycles where they are chasing, which never ends well. Correct me if I am wrong.

A question I have is can a man attract any women who is emotionally healthy through pursuing or is it completely dependent on being her specific type?

The problem is that from what I see is that many women have the same type. Even if they are actually healthy and want to be pursued. There is a lot of talk across social media about men not approaching women anymore or initiating contact but the overwhelming experience from the male side is that women DO want to be approached and pursued but by a very specific type of man. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

17 minutes ago, Tenebroso said:

The problem is that from what I see is that many women have the same type. Even if they are actually healthy and want to be pursued. There is a lot of talk across social media about men not approaching women anymore or initiating contact but the overwhelming experience from the male side is that women DO want to be approached and pursued but by a very specific type of man. 

I must be a freak as I have always approached.

I've been pursued a few times also, but all the long term relationships (4 years +) have been me approaching.

[Tenebroso]

13 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I must be a freak as I have always approached.

I've been pursued a few times also, but all the long term relationships (4 years +) have been me approaching.

This also matches what I have observed. Women are not very receptive to approaching today because they find most men creepy. The more confident women are increasingly taking the initiative because women today have very specific types. My attractive male friends are constantly being approached online and in real life.

[aurum]

2 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@aurum @Princess Arabia I agree I was being very safe.

This is just my experience, but generally the game of pursuit and prize hinges on value. Meaning through action.

Humans tend to value things they work for and earn. Even if the prize isn't actually that great!

There is an element of the sunk cost fallacy that could play into that. 

I think I speak more on value that is discovered or created. Which is one aspect. But there are also values we have that are more immutable.

That's a great point.

It's the investment and shared experience of bonding itself that holds people together. Not just some intangible chemistry that existed independently of investment. The bonding itself becomes your narrative arc, your story.

Edited June 6 by aurum

[Princess Arabia]

52 minutes ago, Tenebroso said:

Women are not very receptive to approaching today because they find most men creepy.

Not true. That's it. Just not true. 

Edited June 6 by Princess Arabia

[Tenebroso]

7 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Not true. That's it. Just not true. 

I am going of what women themselves say, it's being written about in mainstream articles. There are female dating coaches teaching women how to signal they are receptive. What reason would I have to make this up?

[CARDOZZO]

Women do not need men these days. Wake up guys! 

Women are extremely independent. They have all that they want, they achieved everything. 

The protector/provider frame for man is gone. You can find girls that will commit to that but it is rare these days.

Why should they commit to a low value guy who brings nothing to the table?

Even the average girl has 20 guys on her DM screaming to go on a date. 

2020 was the breaking point. Wake up guys.

 

[Princess Arabia]

8 minutes ago, CARDOZZO said:

Women do not need men these days. Wake up guys! 

Women are extremely independent. They have all that they want, they achieved everything. 

The protector/provider frame for man is gone. You can find girls that will commit to that but it is rare these days.

Why should they commit to a low value guy who brings nothing to the table?

Even the average girl has 20 guys on her DM screaming to go on a date. 

2020 was the breaking point. Wake up guys.

 

Hush. Feminine women still crave masculinity. It's only over for those who think it is. That mindset will not get you anywhere with women. The problem is not with the independent women, it's with the men who shy away or gets intimidated by them. These women are being told by coaches to play dumb or not show their independence as much if they want to attract the man they want to not seem competitive. So, it's not that women are independent, it's that the men are intimidated by it. Plenty of women are in coaching to learn how to dumb themselves down without losing themselves just to attract men. 

[CARDOZZO]

21 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Hush. Feminine women still crave masculinity. It's only over for those who think it is. That mindset will not get you anywhere with women. The problem is not with the independent women, it's with the men who shy away or gets intimidated by them. These women are being told by coaches to play dumb or not show their independence as much if they want to attract the man they want to not seem competitive. So, it's not that women are independent, it's that the men are intimidated by it. Plenty of women are in coaching to learn how to dumb themselves down without losing themselves just to attract men. 

Ok, it is not 99% of woman who is getting a coach to learn how to attract men. The truth is that women SELECT what they want - period. If you are an average looking guy, you have to work your ass off to get a date. This seems like a victim mindset statement, but trust me - it is hard out there and men are freaking out. They do not understand why they are not getting dates, they did everything society told them. 

[Princess Arabia]

20 minutes ago, Tenebroso said:

I am going of what women themselves say, it's being written about in mainstream articles. There are female dating coaches teaching women how to signal they are receptive. What reason would I have to make this up?

No one is going to write about women finding most guys relatable, negativity gets more views and clicks and social media feeds drama. I can go out and ask 20 women tomorrow if they find most guys creepy and most will say no. I see at least 20 couples on a daily basis and on the weekends they are too many to count. What reason would anybody have to write an article about this or who doesn't find who creepy. Of course there are creepy men, but the majority aren't.

[CARDOZZO]

It is not even women's fault - BECAUSE IT IS BIOLOGY. They hate weak men instinctively. It is not their fault, it is BIOLOGY (million years of evolution). Search for THE ICK. Girls having THE ICK. Why? Biology shows to them that these guys are WEAK.

Edited June 7 by CARDOZZO