A lesson in space and time

[Carl-Richard]

Each horizontal line represents the ontological primitive of the respective view. The point is that solipsism (the kind that wants to exclude the existence of "other perspectives"), is Maya. It presupposes "illusion", space and time, distinctions, separation. It is not the same as taking Consciousness as the ontological primitive (for Consciousness is beyond space and time, beyond distinctions):

Thanks in advance for complimenting my superior artistic taste.

Edited May 27 by Carl-Richard

[Someone here]

I don't understand the diagram. Your written explanation is not clear .please clarify with more detail. Thanks .

[Schizophonia]

@Carl-Richard Admitting i understood well your paradigm eheh, i would rather tend toward solipsism; it's what i regularly saw in my psychedelics trip and it's more dialecticaly coherent.

I don't have the choice to be "aware" and awareness is an illusion.

Conciousness in an illusion; only things happen inevitably.

 

[aurum]

I think I understand your point. You're essentially saying solipsists unknowingly create a "self" / "other" distinction when they say "no other perspectives" exist. Because to say "no other perspectives exist" implies a distinction between you and them. Also, to deny the existence of "other" you have to assume space / time are real, because otherwise there couldn't be an "other" to begin with.

Honestly, unless you've had direct experience with God, these kind of conversations are just bound to go in circles. Verify solipsism for yourself. Then you won't need these debates.

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Someone here said:

I don't understand the diagram. Your written explanation is not clear .please clarify with more detail. Thanks .

Firstly, the cone coming out the eyes should be thought of as a visual field rather than a pyramid.

At the top, Consciousness is represented as an eye. Before it sees the world of illusion (form, Maya), it exists by virtue of itself. According to non-dualists and idealists, it's the bottom layer of reality, which is what the horizontal line represents (bottom layer of reality = ontological primitive).

Consciousness sees the limited realm of form and illusion (Maya). It is not identical to it, because it exists prior to it, but it still sees and in fact creates the world of shapes, sounds, sights, smells, etc. That is also why Consciousness is referred to as "God" (all-powerful, all-knowing creator).

Within the limited realm of form, as a human (and because it's useful), you have the ability to conceptualize and carve out distinct concepts of form. For example, the concept of "other" and "people", other mind-body complexes, as well as your own mind-body complex which you happen to be identified with. You also carve out meta-categories like space and time to organize such concepts: "other people exist distributed across space, separate from my own mind-body complex". The mind-body complex that you identify with is represented as the slightly bigger head with two eyes.

The mind-body complex you identify with looks out on the limited world of form (i.e. the lines coming from the eyes), filters it through your limited sensory and perceptual organizing principles, and creates a representation of this limited world of form, inside your own private conscious experience (represented as the little cone).

So when your mind-body complex looks out on the world and it sees other mind-body complexes (smaller heads with two eyes), if you conclude that "these other mind-body complexes do not look out on the world the way I do", you cannot say "because space and time does not exist" or "because only infinite consciousness exists", because you are already assuming space and time, you are already assuming finite wordly forms. If you concern yourself with mind-body complexes, you concern yourself with limited things. God, the Absolute, Infinity, is beyond limited things.

Edited Tuesday at 05:49 PM by Carl-Richard

[Breakingthewall]

19 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Consciousness sees the limited realm of form and illusion (Maya). It is not identical to it, because it exists prior to it,

Conciousness without change is unconsciousness. This is what happens when you're injected with propofol. Your field of consciousness ceases to have content, then it disappears. It can last a trillion years, which is less than an instant, nothing. The moment there's a change perceived, consciousness resets.

[Breakingthewall]

It’s often said that “consciousness is the basis of reality” simply because everything we experience seems to occur within consciousness. But this conclusion is based on a confusion: we mistake the framework of our experience for the foundation of existence itself.

Just because something is unimaginable without consciousness doesn’t mean consciousness is the ground of being. That’s a projection of our current structure . we are conscious, so we imagine reality must be too. But the absolute, if truly unlimited, cannot be a consciousness ,because consciousness always involves differentiation, relation, and appearance. It’s already a form.

Reality doesn’t need to be conscious , only coherent. Consciousness is not the source, it’s a reflection: a localized structure through which reality happens to perceive itself. As it happens we could say that always happens, or that it's infinite, but infinite doesn't mean absolute. The numbers are infinite and relative. 

[Carl-Richard]

42 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Conciousness without change is unconsciousness. This is what happens when you're injected with propofol. Your field of consciousness ceases to have content, then it disappears. It can last a trillion years, which is less than an instant, nothing. The moment there's a change perceived, consciousness resets.

Consciousness without change can be known (it's always known), hence you can be conscious of it. There is always an unchanging element to every experience. Anesthesia is not "un-Consciousness". It's called unconsciousness by medical professionals who don't care about subtle metaphysical distinctions.

 

31 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It’s often said that “consciousness is the basis of reality” simply because everything we experience seems to occur within consciousness. But this conclusion is based on a confusion: we mistake the framework of our experience for the foundation of existence itself.

If you grant the unknown, anything is possible. The ground of being could be a pink elephant. But within the known, Consciousness seems to be the ground of being.

 

31 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

consciousness always involves differentiation, relation, and appearance. It’s already a form.

You're mixing up Consciousness with Maya (mind-body consciousness).

Edited Tuesday at 06:44 PM by Carl-Richard

[Davino]

Imo, Leo miscalculated when erasing the distinction between ego solipsism and Absolute Solipsism. The first one is incomplete because even though finite mind cannot grasp beyond itself, neither can negate others; while Infinite Universal Mind is One and All.

[Breakingthewall]

20 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Consciousness without change can be known (it's always known), hence you can be conscious of it. There is always an unchanging element to every experience. Anesthesia is not "un-Consciousness". It's called unconsciousness by medical professionals who don't care about subtle metaphysical distinctions.

 

If you grant the unknown, anything is possible. The ground of being could be a pink elephant. But within the known, Consciousness seems to be the ground of being.

 

You're mixing up Consciousness with Maya (mind-body consciousness).

No I'm not mixing , just understanding the basic error of spirituality, which defines consciousness as the basis of reality, or reality itself. Absolute reality is consciousness and unconsciousness, everything and nothing. Nothing is not empty consciousness; it is the absence of relationship. And relationship can happen without conciousness. Yes yes , I know that you and others believe that conciousness=reality=god. God is creating an adventure to know itself. But this is just religion. Spirituality is religion. 

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, Davino said:

Imo, Leo miscalculated when erasing the distinction between ego solipsism and Absolute Solipsism. The first one is incomplete because even though finite mind cannot grasp beyond itself, neither can negate others; while Infinite Universal Mind is One and All.

Leo have said hundreds of times that solipsism means that the people that you are talking to doesn't exist, you are imagining them for a reason, and they have not inner experience 

[Breakingthewall]

33 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Consciousness without change can be known (it's always known), hence you can be conscious of it. There is always an unchanging element to every experience

No, there is not. Everything is in constant change. The self , the center or perceptor seems to be the unchanging receptor of the experience, but it's precisely the "illusion". It's created by the perception of change. 

35 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

you grant the unknown, anything is possible. The ground of being could be a pink elephant. But within the known, Consciousness seems to be the ground of being.

Consciousness is nothing, it's just the reality appearing as an structure perceptor / perception. It's an arising of the reality 

36 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

You're mixing up Consciousness with Maya (mind-body consciousness).

Consciousness is an appearance. Reality doesn't need conciousness to be, but conciousness arises. As it arises it's infinite, but not absolute. It's an essential nuance

[Eskilon]

@Carl-Richard Yesterday I said I understood your reply to me in another thread, but actually reflecting upon it and seeing this post I have some things to add here:

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

At the top, Consciousness is represented as an eye. Before it sees the world of illusion (form, Maya), it exists by virtue of itself. According to non-dualists and idealists, it's the bottom layer of reality, which is what the horizontal line represents (bottom layer of reality = ontological primitive).

As I see, the teaching of the world is Maya is a pointer to the spiritual seeker to turn inward, forget the world and ultimately realize Nothingness.

But if we do a little bit of search and read around spiritual traditions, we see that there have been teachers that said that "Empitiness is form, form is empitiness". From my explorations, this is truthful, the distinction between Consciousness(the top of the pyramid) and the World(Maya) is a illusory distiction made only to direct the spiritual seeker towards the right direction. But in the end, this distinction doesn't actually exist, you could say it, in a way, it serves only to direct the seeker.

When you are looking at forms(limits) you are actually looking at the entire of reality, this is what interconnectedness, and Indras-net means. So the forms are not really limited, it is infinite too. Every part is total, complete. And with this, you get the solipsism that Leo is talking about.

There's only one total thing being reflected infinitely in every other part, it's YOU.

 

Edited Tuesday at 07:29 PM by Eskilon

[Natasha Tori Maru]

The time dimension - users are going to struggle with this because they have no frame without time. My thoughts on this thread so far

[Eskilon]

4 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

The time dimension - users are going to struggle with this because they have no frame without time

They do, this frame right here is timeless.

Edited Tuesday at 07:37 PM by Eskilon

[Carl-Richard]

15 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

@Carl-Richard Yesterday I said I understood your reply to me in another thread, but actually reflecting upon it and seeing this post I have some things to add here:

As I see, the teaching of the world is Maya is a pointer to the spiritual seeker to turn inward, forget the world and ultimately realize Nothingness.

But if we do a little bit of search and read around spiritual traditions, we see that there have been teachers that said that "Empitiness is form, form is empitiness". From my explorations, this is truthful, the distinction between Consciousness(the top of the pyramid) and the World(Maya) is a illusory distiction made only to direct the spiritual seeker towards the right direction. But in the end, this distinction doesn't actually exist, you could say it, in a way, it serves only to direct the seeker.

When you are looking at forms(limits) you are actually looking at the entire of reality, this is what interconnectedness, and Indras-net means. So the forms are not really limited, it is infinite too. Every part is total, complete. And with this, you get the solipsism that Leo is talking about.

There's only one total thing being reflected infinitely in every other part, it's YOU.

The problem I'm pointing out is claiming that some very specific forms are necessarily a certain way because there is no difference between form and emptiness. It's a total non sequitur. If you are claiming "there are no separate individualized mind-body experiences but this one", you can't claim that based on "form = emptiness". It's like claiming apples can't fall down or there can't be two clowns in a clown car because God is both and form and emptiness. It's a total non sequitur.

Edited Tuesday at 07:43 PM by Carl-Richard

[Eskilon]

17 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

certain way

It is not a certain way, it is every way possible. The connection with emptiness is that because there's not boundary or distinction between anything, everything penetrates everything else. Everything is everything else. So it can never be a "certain" or a "particular", even though it appears so. The "thing" that is enabling all of this, is emptiness of everything.

Edited Tuesday at 07:55 PM by Eskilon

[Davino]

39 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Leo have said hundreds of times that solipsism means that the people that you are talking to doesn't exist, you are imagining them for a reason, and they have not inner experience 

I did have that realization but with time Solipsism matured in me. Now I see a boundless Consciousness Field which is Reality itself morphing into sensations at every moment and that shines through everyone's eyes.

At an Absolute level I am Infinity I am God, The One.

Yet this Infinity replicates itself into multiplicity and that is when human-me and other-Is happen. 

This is what Leo talked about in the video of Infinite Gods, that is Solipsism matured. The mindfuck is how every realization can coexist simultaenously and even contradictorily. My Mind can shape itself into so many perspectives, combinations of them and states of Consciousness that it's even hard to have a preference for one over the other, infinite relativity meets infinite love, for the miracle of existence happening in every breath.

[Carl-Richard]

7 hours ago, Eskilon said:

It is not a certain way, it is every way possible. The connection with emptiness is that because there's not boundary or distinction between anything, everything penetrates everything else. Everything is everything else. So it can never be a "certain" or a "particular", even though it appears so. The "thing" that is enabling all of this, is emptiness of everything.

So you can't exclude anything. So apparently separate mind-body complexes can have apparently separate localized points of view outside of your own apparently separate localized point of view.

Edited Wednesday at 03:41 AM by Carl-Richard

[Hojo]

@Davino Thats why meditation to focus on yourself is a thing. You can get lost because its all in your face. Its not if, but when you forget again. Thats why we spawn here we forgot.

Edited Tuesday at 09:34 PM by Hojo