If you want to defeat Israel, promise Jews there’ll never be another Holocaust.

[Apparition of Jack]

What I see from the pro-Palestinian side of the conflict is an inability to understand the motivation behind Israel’s motivations for wanting to remove Palestinians from Gaza, and forming a conception of Israel as “evil” as a result.

I’m here to explain Israel’s position, and why they’re fighting so hard and (seemingly) committing atrocities for no good reason.

It’s the Holocaust. It really is that simple. If you’re not Jewish, it can be almost impossible to understand the level of trauma, grief and terror that hovers of the heads of too many Jews to this day about it. It was the first and only time in human history that a people were subject to industrial genocide - not just displacement, not just shootings or massacres (as bad as they are), but systemically slaughtered like animals using mass industrial methods. The level of evil it involved almost seems incomprehensible.

Basically, to most Zionist Israelis, Israel represents the only hope Jews will ever have of not suffering yet another genocide of that scale again, and one that might be successful this time around. And who can blame them? The world failed to stop the Holocaust. Britain, the US, etc knew it was happening. They could’ve done more to stop it. Instead, they mostly ignored it (and even turned Jews away from their countries in literally their most desperate hour) while millions of them were again, being industrially slaughtered. 
 

If you’re your average Israeli, and you see virtually every other nation on earth still condemning you as greedy, “globalists” and, at worst, subhuman, where else are you going to feel safe? Would you really trust the US, or Europe, or anywhere else, when these nations are swarming with neo-Nazis? Where are Jews to go? Zionist Israelis are like cornered rats, desperately trying to hold onto the only piece of land they can call “theirs.”

If you want to stop the ethnic cleansing in Gaza, you have to assure the Israelis - even the most crazy, rabid ones - that you won’t let another Holocaust happen again. You have to assure them their fears are unfounded and that antisemitism will be destroyed in all its social manifestations.

Why do we allow antisemitism just to fester unchallenged? It’s literally the most destructive form of racism in human history (again, because of the Holocaust) and yet most people either dont give a shit, or implicitly or explicitly believe in it. 
 

Jews are not demons. Jews don’t control the world. Jews aren’t lizard people globalists trying to establish a one-world government and enslave humanity.

That’s literally Harry Potter-tier fantasy bullshit. It’s not real. It never has been and never will be. Jews are literally just like anyone else - they have their good and bad, just like all cultures. They have a unique religion, but then so do Sikhs, so do Druze, so do Yazhidis, so do Alawites. If anything there’s a lot of good things about Jewish culture (food, family, commitment to education, etc.)

To defeat Israel’s aggression, we have to defeat global antisemitism. You can’t have one without the other.

[PurpleTree]

pinky promise?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Who cares about a promise  

[aurum]

3 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

If you want to stop the ethnic cleansing in Gaza, you have to assure the Israelis - even the most crazy, rabid ones - that you won’t let another Holocaust happen again. You have to assure them their fears are unfounded and that antisemitism will be destroyed in all its social manifestations.

Who could even make such a promise though?

I agree that anti-semitism is a problem. But no one has the power to assure atrocities will never happen.

[Raze]

Unfortunately this is largely nonsense, early zionists wanted to turn Judaism into a nationalist war like ideology, they only adopted the holocaust as part of the national narrative after they realized it helps get support from western guilt. In Israel holocaust survivors were mocked as “soap people” and to this day a large amount live in poverty and suffer from loneliness.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/1-in-3-holocaust-survivors-cant-afford-all-the-groceries-they-need-poll/

They know another holocaust won’t happen, if it does it’s as a reaction to Israel’s behavior such as a major war that leads to the Samson option, in fact currently Israeli Jews are leaving Israel for the western countries that were responsible for the holocaust, in record numbers. They don’t care about having a safe space for Jews, they want Israel to persist even if it’s unsafe.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/mar/17/israelis-moving-live-europe-rejuvenating-jewish-communities

The reason is three fold,

- they’ve adopted a victim narrative and refuse to acknowledge other groups of people are equally deserving of human rights.

example, nytimes interviewed an israeli woman who discussed why their was so much anger at childrens entertainer ms Rachel for sharing information about injured Palestinian children:

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/14/arts/television/ms-rachel-gaza-israel.html

Quote

“Ms. Rachel seems to be someone who is really, really good-hearted, but in the context of everything that’s going on — she says, ‘I care about all children,’ but really she’s talking about the children of Gaza,” Stacy Hackner, a teacher at a London cheder, a school of Jewish instruction, said in an interview. “That has left a lot of Jewish parents feeling quite isolated.”

 

- they are extremely racist towards Palestinians and view them as subhumans

polls find the majority of Israelis believe Jews deserve special privileges and have racist beliefs about Palestinians such as not wanting to live in the same building as them:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-israelis-want-to-expel-arabs-study-shows/

- a radical religious group believes god is telling them they need to remove Palestinians and recreate greater Israel to bring the messiah back. They have outsized control of the government because the mainstream right uses them to maintain power and the mainstream left refuses to work with Palestinian parties partially due to racial supremacist beliefs, leading to them being a minority. 

Edited May 26 by Raze

[Apparition of Jack]

9 minutes ago, aurum said:

Who could even make such a promise though?

I agree that anti-semitism is a problem. But no one has the power to assure atrocities will never happen.

I mean, isn’t that kinda the problem? If Jewish people don’t feel like the rest of the world won’t try and exterminate them again, why would they give up Israel? In their perspective, a few thousand Palestinian lives (rightly or wrongly) are worth it to prevent the gas chambers again.

Edited May 26 by Apparition of Jack

[aurum]

Just now, Apparition of Jack said:

I mean, isn’t that kinda the problem? If Jewish people feel like the rest of the world won’t try and exterminate them again, why would they give up Israel? In their perspective, a few thousand Palestinian lives (rightly or wrongly) are worth it to prevent the gas chambers again.

 

But you also need to account for the fact that survival is inherently insecure. No one can guarantee another group's safety.

You want a promise of security no one can give you. And you may feel justified in protecting yourself, but you also may make more enemies in the process.

Request for security have to be within reason.

[Raze]

12 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

I mean, isn’t that kinda the problem? If Jewish people don’t feel like the rest of the world won’t try and exterminate them again, why would they give up Israel? In their perspective, a few thousand Palestinian lives (rightly or wrongly) are worth it to prevent the gas chambers again.

This misunderstands the colonial mindset. In South Africa they used the excuse apartheid was necessary for safety, but the second it began hurting them economically and they were losing public support in the western countries they liked, they dismantled it. In apartheid South Africa whites were only 10% of the population. In historic Palestine Jews are 50% and have an even larger power gap, yet they refuse to give Palestinian equal rights or even remove the illegal settlements and give them a state despite all Arab states offering normalization for it. That’s because they feel the losses they take are worth having a racial supremacist state. As soon as the costs of subjugating Palestinians is higher than the benefits, you’ll see them flip and say they were against it the entire time. 

Edited May 26 by Raze

[Apparition of Jack]

Just now, aurum said:

 

But you also need to account for the fact that survival is inherently insecure. No one can guarantee another group's safety.

You want a promise of security no one can give you. And you may feel justified in protecting yourself, but you also may make more enemies in the process.

Request for security have to be within reason.

You say this as someone who isn’t part of a group who hasnt literally faced attempted extermination in living memory. The Holocaust wiped out 1/3rd of all Jews on earth at the time. That would be like if the Japanese wiped out 46 million Americans in WW2, or Germany wiped out 14 million French people. That level of trauma and horror isn’t something to just move on from. 
 

 

[Apparition of Jack]

4 minutes ago, Raze said:

This misunderstands the colonial mindset. In South Africa they used the excuse apartheid was necessary for safety, but the second it began hurting them economically and they were losing public support in the western countries they liked, they dismantled it. In apartheid South Africa whites were only 10% of the population. In historic Palestine Jews are 50% and have an even larger power gap, yet they refuse to give Palestinian equal rights or even remove the illegal settlements and give them a state despite all Arab states offering normalization for it. That’s because they feel the losses they take are worth having a racial supremacist state. As soon as the costs of subjugating Palestinians is higher than the benefits, you’ll see them flip and say they were against it the entire time. 

You’re not getting what I’m saying. The most radical Israelis would turn Israel into a ghetto if it was still “theirs” rather than accepting anyone else (and hence any group of people who could commit the Holocaust against them again) into their country if it meant financial stability.

October 7th was basically a mass Holocaust flashback for many Jews. It brought up the latent fears that the world hates them and wants them dead.

Edited May 26 by Apparition of Jack

[aurum]

2 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

You say this as someone who isn’t part of a group who hasnt literally faced attempted extermination in living memory. The Holocaust wiped out 1/3rd of all Jews on earth at the time. That would be like if the Japanese wiped out 46 million Americans in WW2, or Germany wiped out 14 million French people. That level of trauma and horror isn’t something to just move on from. 

Yes, your trauma is exactly why you are making unreasonable requests.

Those go together.

[Raze]

3 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

You’re not getting what I’m saying. The most radical Israelis would turn Israel into a ghetto if it was still “theirs” rather than accepting anyone else (and hence any group of people who could commit the Holocaust against them again) into their country if it meant financial stability.

October 7th was basically a mass Holocaust flashback for many Jews. It brought up the latent fears that the world hates them and wants them dead.

So coddling their victim narrative would just make the problem worse. The only reason they think that is an absolute refusal to confront how their refusal to see humanity of Palestinians lead to that attack.

It also assumes it’s their honest feelings. A lot of it is just a tactic to distract and delay pushback to buy Israel time to finish exterminating the Palestinian people. An example of this was how the ADL was saying accusing Israel of ethnic cleansing was antisemitic, then when Netanyahu announced he wanted to expel Gazans they turned around and supported it. 

Edited May 26 by Raze

[Apparition of Jack]

2 minutes ago, aurum said:

Yes, your trauma is exactly why you are making unreasonable requests.

Those go together.

I’m not Jewish. 

[Apparition of Jack]

2 minutes ago, Raze said:

So coddling their victim narrative would just make the problem worse. The only reason they think that is an absolute refusal to confront how their refusal to see humanity of Palestinians lead to that attack.

It also assumes it’s their honest feelings. A lot of it is just a tactic to distract and delay pushback to buy Israel time to finish exterminating the Palestinian people. An example of this was how the ADL was saying accusing Israel of ethnic cleansing was antisemitic, then when Netanyahu announced he wanted to expel Gazans they turned around and supported it. 

Paranoid people don’t make rational decisions. I’m not justifying Israel’s actions, I’m explaining the psychological motivations behind them. If, on some level, you’re still terrified of being wiped out, of course you’re going to make all sorts of irrational decisions to create a sense of security.

[zazen]

@Raze And that cost can only be imposed by those holding up Israel’s security architecture - mainly the US. There’s much anger in the Muslim world for gulf nations not doing enough to counter Israel - but these gulf nations security depends on the US also so they are playing a tricky game.

@Apparition of Jack To bring your conclusion full circle perhaps we defeat anti-semitism by seizing actions that stoke it - mainly the distorted implementation of Zionism.

Trauma doesn’t morally license oppression of others. Conflating what the state of Israel does with anti-semitism is a categorical error Zionists use to obfuscate their actions. Zionists can’t seek safety of one people (themselves) by displacing another (Palestinians) in the most violent manner.

Zionism in its current form demands total dominance to feel safe, but total dominance ensures they never will feel safe as it’s at the expense of others.

Israel already has one of the most powerful armies in the region, with nuclear arsenal and the backing of not only the West but the worlds superpower the US, with unconditional yearly aid . If it still feels unsafe, then nothing will ever make it feel safe.

If Israel truly wanted a security guarantee it could join NATO to come under its article 5 umbrella, but it wouldn’t do that because that means it would lose some autonomy and be held more accountable which goes against its interests of settling the land of Zion.

 

[Leo Gura]

37 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

If you want to stop the ethnic cleansing in Gaza, you have to assure the Israelis - even the most crazy, rabid ones - that you won’t let another Holocaust happen again.

You can't convince them of that. They are too brainwashed and paranoid to ever believe you.

And in the end they still want their land. They will never compromise on what they have brainwashed themselves to believe is their land.

You can't reason with a zealot.

Edited May 26 by Leo Gura

[Apparition of Jack]

8 minutes ago, zazen said:

@Raze And that cost can only be imposed by those holding up Israel’s security architecture - mainly the US. There’s much anger in the Muslim world for gulf nations not doing enough to counter Israel - but these gulf nations security depends on the US also so they are playing a tricky game.

@Apparition of Jack To bring your conclusion full circle perhaps we defeat anti-semitism by seizing actions that stoke it - mainly the distorted implementation of Zionism.

Trauma doesn’t morally license oppression of others. Conflating what the state of Israel does with anti-semitism is a categorical error Zionists use to obfuscate their actions. Zionists can’t seek safety of one people (themselves) by displacing another (Palestinians) in the most violent manner.

Zionism in its current form demands total dominance to feel safe, but total dominance ensures they never will feel safe as it’s at the expense of others.

Israel already has one of the most powerful armies in the region, with nuclear arsenal and the backing of not only the West but the worlds superpower the US, with unconditional yearly aid . If it still feels unsafe, then nothing will ever make it feel safe.

If Israel truly wanted a security guarantee it could join NATO to come under its article 5 umbrella, but it wouldn’t do that because that means it would lose some autonomy and be held more accountable which goes against its interests of settling the land of Zion.

 

I’m not saying criticising Israel is antisemitism, because it isn’t. I’m just talking about the general and pernicious antisemitism that still exists everywhere, even against non-Zionist Jews. Literally just go onto Twitter or Facebook and you’ll find countless people with Hitler profiles calling for the eradication of Jews. The sort of antisemitism that led to the Holocaust long before Israel was established.

Otherwise, you make good points. Israel’s actions are self-defeating, but they won’t realise this if they’re still acting out of trauma. Basically, enough Israelis need to be made aware that they’re not making themselves safe and that diplomacy and cooperation will actually improve their lives, but it’ll be much harder to that if every second WhatsApp groupchat in Britain, Nigeria, Pakistan, Korea etc is full of dipshits posting Nazi propaganda about how the Jews rule the world or whatever.

Edited May 26 by Apparition of Jack

[aurum]

8 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

I’m not Jewish. 

You're speaking for them.

[Twentyfirst]

@Apparition of Jack You still don't understand. Throughout the history of all Jewish persecution it was the Muslims that always protected them. It made no sense to create an adversarial relationship with them.

Flip the situation. I am friends with you and you are friends with me. Some guy named Germany steals from you and kills your family. I empathize with you from getting harmed by Germany. Then you and Germany come visit me to try to steal from me and kill my family. Without Germanys help you would not be able to steal from me yet you claim you are a victim of Germany and of me. How can I continue to empathize with your holocaust if your friendship with the people who holocausted you is genociding me. Make it make sense

Remind me when Rwanda or Cambodia went to colonize another people out of their pain and fear? 

This sense of wanting to protect the Jews out of guilt is the problem. How much money and support has been sent to Israel so they can destroy Palestine? By trying to solve anti semitism, with Israel, it has only created more anti semitism 

You are way off

Edited May 27 by Twentyfirst

[Apparition of Jack]

47 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

@Apparition of Jack You still don't understand. Throughout the history of all Jewish persecution it was the Muslims that always protected them. It made no sense to create an adversarial relationship with them.

Flip the situation. I am friends with you and you are friends with me. Some guy named Germany steals from you and kills your family. I empathize with you from getting harmed by Germany. Then you and Germany come visit me to try to steal from me and kill my family. Without Germanys help you would not be able to steal from me yet you claim you are a victim of Germany and of me. How can I continue to empathize with your holocaust if your friendship with the people who holocausted you is genociding me. Make it make sense

Remind me when Rwanda or Cambodia went to colonize another people out of their pain and fear? 

This sense of wanting to protect the Jews out of guilt is the problem. How much money and support has been sent to Israel so they can destroy Palestine? By trying to solve anti semitism, with Israel, it has only created more anti semitism 

You are way off

Again, I agree with literally all of this. Read my posts again carefully. I’ve explicitly said the creation of Israel was a mistake.

Again, my point isn’t to justify Israel’s behaviour, it’s to explain where it comes from. Militant Zionism is in essence one big collective trauma response. To the Zionists, “Israel = safety”, even if their own actions make that less likely. 
 

To overcome your enemy you must first know your enemy. Calling Israelis an evil people for their actions in Gaza counter-productively causes them to double-down on their aggression as they feel more people turn against them.

It’s the spiral of hatred. The more and more you demonise a people (on whatever side of a conflict), the worse and worse the violence gets. You might utterly despise Israel for what they’ve done, and in many ways those feelings would be justified, but they would also blind you to seeking cooperative solutions to actually ending the conflict and allowing Palestinians to live in peace once again.

[MarkKol]

In 2025 you won’t get another holocaust, you’ll get nuked. 

Maybe, if Israel prospers and advances, they’ll be haunted by guilt like the Germans did because of what they did to Palestine. How is Israel or Benjamin Netanyahu, any different from the nazis and hitler? Both of them are focusing on killing civilians.

In case the Israelis don’t regret their actions decades from now, that will be a strong case against jews, a very strong one IMO. You’ll essentially prove that even in the aftermath of the disaster you caused, you still haven’t mustered the ability to feel empathy or regret.

Edited May 27 by MarkKol