Why i am not a vegan ?

[Basman]

14 hours ago, Emerald said:

Be honest.

In your current situation, do you actually eat meat for survival?

Or do you eat meat because you enjoy the flavor and texture?

Eating for flavor and texture is survival. Eating bland food purely for nutrition or being vegan is less naturalistic than just eating tasty burgers unquestioningly. 

It is just in modern times that following one's instincts can be unhealthy. Medieval peasants would be healthier if they ate Big macs.

[Basman]

Survival is the survival of one's own identity, which is why vegans tend to get in so many debates. They are surviving their vegan identity, likewise people can feel like their worldview and lifestyle is being undermined by vegan ideology because it is uncompromising due to its moral dimension. 

Comparatively, you don't see people debating paleo bros. There is no "paleo identity". It lacks that moral dimension that makes it more actual, beyond just being nutrition bros.

[Schizophonia]

I understand that people fight against ungrateful animal farming, even if it doesn't fit with my interests.

Now, I see no problem if the animals are treated properly; there are even ecological benefits; animal excrement is the best soil fertilization tool.

It's also not easy to maintain a vegan diet, especially if you need a lot of calories and are athletic. You can say what you want, but there are no vegan world champions in any category, and very few overall champions despite doping. Imagine that as an amateur.

Some vegans can be very unpleasant and neurotic, but it's not about being vegan per se, but about identifying with it. People who live by ethical delusions, by neurotic logic, rather than by their real passions/obligations, tend to come across as mannered and unpleasant.

Edited May 14 by Schizophonia

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, Basman said:

Eating for flavor and texture is survival. Eating bland food purely for nutrition or being vegan is less naturalistic than just eating tasty burgers unquestioningly. 

It is just in modern times that following one's instincts can be unhealthy. Medieval peasants would be healthier if they ate Big macs.

Eating for flavor and texture is NOT survival as you don't need it to survive. And it is just a self-deception to frame an enjoyment and flavor and texture as a survival need.

But even if the enjoyment of flavor and texture were a survival need (which it isn't), you could also source your enjoyments of flavors and textures from plant-based food without needing to partake in products that come from the suffering and death of sentient beings.

And the idea of there being this dichotomy of delicious animal foods versus bland plant-foods is untrue.

As a Vegan, the food that I eat now is a lot more varied and flavorful compared to when I used to eat meat and other animal products.

In fact, most of the flavor we attribute to animal foods come from the seasonings.. which are plants.

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, Basman said:

Survival is the survival of one's own identity,

More mental gymnastics to justify yourself to yourself.

[Emerald]

7 hours ago, NewKidOnTheBlock said:

@Emerald Those statistics don't tell the whole story. Like I said couple months ago during our first bout of arguments, meat is not meat, is not meat. Also, it is factual that as a vegan you are missing out on many essential micronutrients

If vegan diet was perfect like that, there wouldn't be so many videos of people (and real life examples of people I've seen) looking pale and malnourished from it. Some people even died from it, even an actual vegan influencer. It is a good thing to eat meat and animal products every once in a while, and there's nothing any of you moral highgrounders can say to me, to convince me of the opposite.

I already told you that I am eating mainly for convenience and easiness of access, as well as proper sustenance. I'm trying to evade junk food as much as possible. But besides that, I'm obviously eating stuff that's tasty to me, is that suppose to be some kind of "gotcha" argument? LOL Ofc I'm always going to be inclined to eat things that taste good

Those claims about Vegans missing essential micronutrients aren't supported by any kind of valid research.

And you can find personal anecdotal evidence for literally anything. But they only ever form a sample size of one.

So, you can't look to these videos about Vegans who are no longer Vegan and deduce anything about the health of the Vegan diet. 

But if you look at the actual research data and meta-analyses, plant-based diets tend to be associated with better health outcomes across the board... especially with regard to longevity and reducing the risk of heart disease and stroke which are the number one killers. 

Also, there are people who claim Veganism to hide their eatings disorder. Consider an anorexic or orthorexic person who wants a convenient excuse to refuse food when it's offered to them. 

Saying, "Sorry, I can't eat that. I'm Vegan." or even "Sorry, I can't eat that. I'm doing Keto, Paleo, Atkins, etc." is a useful cover for an eating disorder.

But most Vegans don't have eating disorders. And as a Vegan, I could actually afford to lose a few pounds myself.

But honestly, all of this is beside the point that I was making.

My point is the meat eaters who feel guilty about eating meat will find all sorts of mental gymnastics and unsupported ideas to justify their own dietary choices to themselves... and will look for ways to judge, demonize, and invalidate the choices of Vegans to live in alignment with their values.

And that's because the existence of Vegans make them feel guilty that someone else is living their values when they are not.

But at least you are honest in that you say that you value the convenience and enjoyment of eating animals and animal products over the animal's life and well-being... even if you are incorrect about the health factors.

I personally value animal's lives and well-being over pleasure or convenience myself, which is why I decided to go Vegan... as it was important to me to bring my actions into integrity with my values.

But some people just don't share those same values and feel that their own pleasure and convenience is more important than the lives of other sentient beings.

And in that case, I want them to live in alignment with their values even if I disagree with those values.

 

[Emerald]

14 hours ago, Majed said:

@Emerald That is nonsense. We have the freedom to think about different issues freely. You can't just dismiss someone's argument like that. 

You have the freedom to think different ways about things.... and I want you to actually own and live your own values.

But my claim is that you're being dishonest with yourself about what your values are.

When people do mental gymnastics and come up with these narratives to defend themselves against 'the judgmental Vegans'... they are actually responding to their own cognitive dissonance around engaging in actions that are not aligned to their own values.

And they are projecting their own judgments onto Vegans.

Let's be real... what made you create this whole narrative justification that you cooked up in the first place?

Did some Vegans come up and criticize you while you were eating meat?

Or did you just know of the existence of Vegans and imagine some Vegans criticizing you and get into an argument in your head where you had to defend yourself against Vegans?

I'm not telling you you need to go Vegan.

I'm just encouraging you to be honest with yourself about your own self-deceptions and feelings of cognitive dissonance surrounding engaging in actions that are incongruent to your own beliefs and values.

[Emerald]

7 hours ago, SwiftQuill said:

@NewKidOnTheBlock  I do agree like 5% of what the wokie said, that sometimes it's mental gymnastics to justify experiencing pleasure and still hold the goodie goodie persona. Personally, I've dropped the "I'm such a good person" identify delusion so I don't care about it too much.

My experience is that, every time a meat eater goes into a "complaining about Vegans' or "Arguing with imaginary Vegans in my head" argument... it's almost always about doing mental gymnastics to justify prioritizing pleasure over animal life and animal suffering.

Most people don't agree with this. But they have to find a way to lie to themselves so that they can convince themselves that they're not acting out of integrity with their own values.

And they project their own self-judgments for living out of integrity with their values onto Vegans (and that's true, even if the Vegan is being vocal about their Veganism.)

[SwiftQuill]

It's hard taking vegans seriously when the default response is "jUsT AdMiT YoU KiLl aNiMaLs bEcAuSe bAcOn iS TaStY"

Very low IQ response that in my opinion deserves to be mocked.

People like @Kid A act like I'm a closed minded douchebag because I "promote the annoying vegan stereotype" but honestly after having met so many vegans and being exposed to the same talking points, the same self righteous attitudes, it's no longer a stereotype, it's an actual pattern.

These attitudes of judgement and moralizing only serve to make meat eaters defensive, or at least annoyed.

Honestly, I suggest meat eaters to never bother debating with vegans. It's almost always a waste of time. Not even worth it for dumpster fire entertainment value.

[SwiftQuill]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

Eating for flavor and texture is NOT survival as you don't need it to survive. And it is just a self-deception to frame an enjoyment and flavor and texture as a survival need.

...

I think they meant survival not in the "biological being needs to survive" but in the sense that Leo uses it. Like how playing videogames is survival, or watching a movie is survival. And I do agree that eating tasty food is part of our higher order survival.

If someone has a tough life, working long hours with few luxuries, and their few moments of pleasure are at lunch and dinner, they are unlikely to become vegan. When people are overworked and unhappy, they often seek comfort in hedonistic pleasures.

That is why I do not see them as evil for eating animal products. I do not confront them, debate them, or demand they justify drinking milk in the morning or eating a cheeseburger at lunch.

And if vegans don't understand this? If they don't possess the empathy to understand where those people come from, and even the logic to understand the approach of moralizing doesn't work? Those vegans are just retarded.

[Joshe]

If you find yourself arguing in favor of non-veganism, you’re highly likely to be deluded and subconsciously operating in the way that Emerald described. Either that, or you take vegan retards way too seriously. The latter is the type to vote for Trump just to spite what they hate… what they call woke. This is a whole different subspecies of retard right here. If you think those woke vegans are retarded, you’re not far ahead of them, if at all. Wake up assholes. 

If you’re sitting around wishing you could experience the pleasure of a juicy steak, that in itself is weak. Very similar to a meth or heroin junky, just with a different object of desire.

Also, I have no qualms with eating meat, or mocking retards. I do both, often. Maybe one day I’ll grow out of it. Until then, I’m not gonna bullshit myself. I know I’m too selfish to care about it at this time, and I’m fine with that. 

what it is, is people can’t stand the idea that some are more selfless than them. But it’s okay. It’s not a competition. You are where you are. Aside from selfishness, incorporating a vegan lifestyle is a big responsibility, especially if you’re born into a society that hocks meat at you everywhere you go. I myself, in my current situation, do not have the mental capacity or ideal circumstances to even consider it. 

Edited May 15 by Joshe

[Yimpa]

BEST REASON TO BE VEGAN HERE

[Basman]

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

Eating for flavor and texture is NOT survival as you don't need it to survive.

But you do. Food is the one consistent highlight in a lot of people's day.

The fact that people will fight and debate you over giving up their burgers is proof of that.

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

More mental gymnastics to justify yourself to yourself.

It's an explanation, not a justification. 

Trying to convert a meat-eater into veganism is structurally the same as trying to convert a secular person into Christianity. It'll only work if they are already open to the idea.

Morality is not a universal feature but a relative mental construct. Human morality, including veganism, is largely an extension of behavior that would maintain social cohesion, like not being murderous. Tigers don't flinch or question when they kill because they don't have an identity that subsumes certain principles as right or wrong nor do they have the need to. That is not bug but a feature of their design.

 

Edited May 15 by Basman

[SwiftQuill]

@Joshe stopped reading as soon as you mentioned Trump. I don't entertain red herrings and stupid comparisons.

[SwiftQuill]

7 minutes ago, Basman said:

Trying to convert a meat-eater into veganism is structurally the same as trying to convert a secular person into Christianity. It'll only work if they are already open to the idea.

Exactly.

[Joshe]

@SwiftQuill - that’s too bad, it was aimed at you. Lol. Of course you’d stop reading upon seen those letters, because I’m just another lost, woke idiot. 

[SwiftQuill]

"tHoSe dUmB MeAt eAtErS CaN'T HaNdLe tHe tRuTh tHaT I'M MoRe sElFeSs tHaN ThEm"

I hope you people repeat that mantra 100x in a row to yourselves at night. You clearly need it to sleep well.

[Joshe]

I eat meat bro. It’s not a moral competition. It’s fine. 

[Joshe]

Shit, how did I not see it before?

Hating woke = offloading or projecting guilt 

Edited May 15 by Joshe

[SwiftQuill]

@Joshe I hate woke because I hate LIES

Everyone loves to point out the lies of the Right. Everyone loves to beat a dead horse. But if I dare point out lies of the Left, then I'm an edgelord.

"you projecting guilt" bullshit

I'm REJECTING THE LIES