The responsibility of understanding Truth

[Davino]

@PolyPeter I've given up on the task. The one's who care will find the way and the rest, we love them as they are.

[UnbornTao]

Importance may be a secondary, human concern. If truth is just what is, then it precedes activity--in this case, value-making. For example, gravity is a principle and, as such, a fact. But does it manifest in the same way in outer space or on other planets? This hints at the nature of relative truth. The absolute is whatever exists in and of itself, and becoming conscious of that for ourselves is our task.

Edited May 14 by UnbornTao

[PolyPeter]

2 hours ago, Davino said:

the rest, we love them as they are.

This got me thinking

when you think about people who are super super far away from become Aware of Consciousness, and start hurting other people, abusing, exploiting, robbing, we as a society learned that we dont just love them as they are, we lock them up in prison cells, and depending on what they've done, some of them get the Death penalty. That does not sound like "love them as they are" to me. In fact, is loving them as they are that would get us in trouble, because if you did, they would continue to murder and do evil shit. 

What do you think about this? is there always a clear line between loving people as they are and letting unconscious people get away with their misbehavior? what count as a misbehaving? it varies over time, across the planet... 

When you say you love them as they are, I think that you should also make explicit what is not acceptable, which is not the same for everyone.

[PolyPeter]

2 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Gravity is a "true" principle.

MMMmmmm, I think that under the classic newtonian physics, this is right.

But nowadays we have quantum mechanics, telling us that particles are not there until you measure them.

Gravity is a consequence of particles having mass. But if in reality there are no particles to begin with, then there is no mass, leading to gravity not being true.

[PolyPeter]

2 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

The absolute is whatever it itself is.

Even me trying to understand how to tell other people that looking for Truth is important not only for themselves but to the evolution of the human species too.

The universe is always and will always be the universe, the universe does not care about things in particular, the unity of existence is the unity of existence, yes, tautology, but within the relative domain you can always imagine things to enhance relativistic things! like the enhancement of humanity.

[PolyPeter]

3 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

It's a problem because it scares people away.

Absolutely!!! 

and about the deeper exploration, I also agree. 

But overall I can also see that I am not the only one trying to come up with this sort of ideas, and discussing them with like-minded people could create better ideas faster. 

[Sugarcoat]

9 hours ago, PolyPeter said:

can you please provide at least one example of how you can do so in a way that doesn't seem forced?

If they show interest in spirituality one can continue the conversation into that topic 

[Breakingthewall]

4 hours ago, PolyPeter said:

But nowadays we have quantum mechanics, telling us that particles are not there until you measure them.

8 hours ago, PolyPeter said:

 

That isn't exact . Spirituality has used this mantra to say that everything is consciousness and that we create reality by being aware of it. 

Edited May 13 by Breakingthewall

[Yimpa]

4 hours ago, PolyPeter said:

But overall I can also see that I am not the only one trying to come up with this sort of ideas, and discussing them with like-minded people could create better ideas faster. 

There is nothing but Consciousness.

[Breakingthewall]

This is an interesting approach to enlightenment. Well, he says that reality is a simulation, I'd say that is coherent relations between states due the absence of limits, but I think it's the same idea . He says there is no self, I think there is no center but there is this concrete structure now, and we could call it self. 

 

Edited May 13 by Breakingthewall

[kbone]

@PolyPeter

With respect to Truth, how would you go about facilitating/explaining/teaching/promoting being prone to... futility to 'another mind'?

Real question, I'm curious. 

I've found that every mind goes through the night and gets the wake up call in a different way, sometimes radically different. And then, once the awakening has happened (IF it has indeed happened), all kinds of strange and odd things are exhibited as 'their mind' comes to terms with what ACTUALLY being awake is. This is often the case with folks who rely on psychedelic experiences too much to inform their clarity. That is, it's not so much about experiences, but about how the Realization informs the mind, and there is a substantial distinction. 

There's often a tendency for the mind (as an unconscious momentum of sorts) to want to 'get/take credit for' or  'take control of' the Realization, so to speak,,, at which point, they may be in the process of, or, they've already 'fallen back into the dream'.... unable to discern being awake IN the dream or FROM the dream. Convos on whether or not that phenomena is at play have a tendency to get a little uumm, feisty, if ya know what I mean, hehe.

Edited May 13 by kbone

[kbone]

@Davino

 

Having read in your signature "In this steady life GOD is available; via 5-MeO-DMT", would you say that "GOD is available" prior to taking 5-MeO-DMT and THEN experiencing its causal effects on the mind's perceptions? I'm curious about your distinction between Truth (eternal/timeless, infinite/acausal, etc) and experiencer/experience (time bound, dependent on mind).

[theleelajoker]

11 hours ago, PolyPeter said:

This got me thinking

when you think about people who are super super far away from become Aware of Consciousness, and start hurting other people, abusing, exploiting, robbing, we as a society learned that we dont just love them as they are, we lock them up in prison cells, and depending on what they've done, some of them get the Death penalty. That does not sound like "love them as they are" to me. In fact, is loving them as they are that would get us in trouble, because if you did, they would continue to murder and do evil shit. 

What do you think about this? is there always a clear line between loving people as they are and letting unconscious people get away with their misbehavior? what count as a misbehaving? it varies over time, across the planet... 

When you say you love them as they are, I think that you should also make explicit what is not acceptable, which is not the same for everyone.

Good point. I would say: Trust you instincts when to and how to act and when to observe. I believe noone should or can even change one's karma. So maybe person X needs to be locked away or killed bc it's the experience they need to develop? Who knows.

Not saying you should never act. Not saying you should always act. Don't be dogmatic but be present and adjust to any situation.

[UnbornTao]

11 hours ago, PolyPeter said:

MMMmmmm, I think that under the classic newtonian physics, this is right.

But nowadays we have quantum mechanics, telling us that particles are not there until you measure them.

Gravity is a consequence of particles having mass. But if in reality there are no particles to begin with, then there is no mass, leading to gravity not being true.

Extraneous explanations may be valid but they aren't really necessary in this context. Principles constitute the "rules" of existence, so to speak. In this case, it simply means that objects fall downward in a fairly consistent way wherever the principle applies. This is your experience. To the extent that the principle is operative, "reality"--or some aspect of it--will function according to its demands. That was just an example of relative truth.

11 hours ago, PolyPeter said:

Even me trying to understand how to tell other people that looking for Truth is important not only for themselves but to the evolution of the human species too.

The universe is always and will always be the universe, the universe does not care about things in particular, the unity of existence is the unity of existence, yes, tautology, but within the relative domain you can always imagine things to enhance relativistic things! like the enhancement of humanity.

Why would you care? Find out what's true for yourself, first of all. That alone is already difficult. It's not about fantasy--it's about what is, here and now. I'd add that seeking utility and seeking truth are entirely different pursuits, each with its own goals. Perhaps understanding principles would be more fruitful for the advancement of humanity. And consider this: the truth is unknown--and may even be useless. What if our search for utility blinds us to what's true?

Edited May 13 by UnbornTao

[gettoefl]

15 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's easy to perceive, almost everyone who's in spirituality are pursuing bliss, immortality and feel accepted . Its a kind of evasion. Then in some moment they have some experiences, they match them with everything that they ve read and they think that they know the truth, but then, after some time some crisis happens. Almost no one is on the path to real enlightenment.

Be unknowing and be unknown

Don't come along tomorrow and say damn I get it now (become knowing) and all you fools need to hear the truth (become known)

Truth is wordless, pathless, effortless

Maybe one pointer is, if you want to know me then come live with me (to see how full of shit I am or not perhaps)

[theleelajoker]

31 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

Be unknowing and be unknown

Don't come along tomorrow and say damn I get it now (become knowing) and all you fools need to hear the truth (become known)

Truth is wordless, pathless, effortless

Maybe one pointer is, if you want to know me then come live with me (to see how full of shit I am or not perhaps)

Nice. It's sometimes easy for me to fall into the "I know" trap.

I agree also with "come and see how I act". First person experience of actions instead of talking or writing, making Videos etc 

Wordless, pathless, effortless is a very nice guidance. I'll keep that in mind. Thx

[gettoefl]

24 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

Nice. It's sometimes easy for me to fall into the "I know" trap.

I agree also with "come and see how I act". First person experience of actions instead of talking or writing, making Videos etc 

Wordless, pathless, effortless is a very nice guidance. I'll keep that in mind. Thx

Glad it jibes with you. Another thing I remember is: if you want to be smart learn something every day. If you want to be wise lose something every day. Truth is more about about removing the false. False means interpretation. If I look absent interpretation, I see what is.

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, gettoefl said:

Be unknowing and be unknown

Don't come along tomorrow and say damn I get it now (become knowing) and all you fools need to hear the truth (become known)

Truth is wordless, pathless, effortless

Maybe one pointer is, if you want to know me then come live with me (to see how full of shit I am or not perhaps)

You can point out what is a barrier or a projection, and if you are going to live with someone you will judge them according to your own values.

[gettoefl]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

You can point out what is a barrier or a projection, and if you are going to live with someone you will judge them according to your own values.

Everyone I meet is practice for no longer jumping to judgement. Living with someone is the greatest test of that. Seeing them through eyes of innocence and kinship. We are all here for the same purpose, to wake up. We are all different but we're all the same. Another person at close quarters is a necessary mirror and motivator. Everything here is a barrier or it is a blessing if seen right. Everything and everyone is the divine in totality. Grace and glory all around.

Edited May 13 by gettoefl

[Davino]

16 hours ago, PolyPeter said:

when you think about people who are super super far away from become Aware of Consciousness, and start hurting other people, abusing, exploiting, robbing, we as a society learned that we dont just love them as they are, we lock them up in prison cells, and depending on what they've done, some of them get the Death penalty. That does not sound like "love them as they are" to me. In fact, is loving them as they are that would get us in trouble, because if you did, they would continue to murder and do evil shit. 

What do you think about this? is there always a clear line between loving people as they are and letting unconscious people get away with their misbehavior? what count as a misbehaving? it varies over time, across the planet... 

This is a super good point but you're taking my answer out of context. You desire to inject your value of "truth" into other people and my answer is: you wanna do that because you don't love others as they are and disrepect their sovereignity of mind. It's like that father which says you should be a doctor or a lawyer, those are real solid careers with impact, in the same a way it's true that Truth is probably the best value but it comes from a place inside you that doesn't understand nor respects the necessity of multiplicity of values and variety. This love and respect for everyone and everything as it is must be existential and its acceptance has to be total: for how can a knive be anything else than a knive? That's what it is. From here we can build up societal structures for mutual living.

Having said this, I'll address your edge case. Consider first of all that most people are functional enough to live in society (98%). What we do with the rest 2%? Well consider you don't have to "hate" someone to put him into jail. Why do you assume that? Maybe the most loving thing to do is to actually put them into a safe place, give them therapeutic work etc. and the same goes with mentally ill people or drug addicts. Love is not a simplistic point of all goes, no, love goes hand in hand with intelligence and with the configuration of reality which maximizes love: which is loving everyone as they are and to maximize love at every level given the constraints of reality. If we actually let disfunctional dangerous people out there that wouldn't be an act of love, actually puting safe borders would be the most loving thing and in a developed mind this doesn't need to involve hate, but is actually playing the macro chess game to maximize love and balance reality, while loving each piece exactly as it is, existentially. Which is in fact, the only hope for healing this people, insane Love.

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