Leo, do you think that Democrats should support right-wing economic policies?

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

I have never tried to win arguments with you. That is something you are weirdly preoccupied with by your own admission.

You sure do argue a lot for someone not trying to win arguments.  

[ExploringReality]

@Emerald

with all due respect.

Edited May 8 by ExploringReality

[Leo Gura]

@ExploringReality Do not call them offensive names.

[Emerald]

27 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

How self-biased that yours was earned and mine was not.

Kudos for me but not for thee.

If you were making good points, I'd also give you your kudos.

I have done so before.

But you went off into some weird territory about letting the world burn because of your commitment to truth... which just wasn't very well thought out. 

And then you compared that to the monk who died because of his commitment to truth like your willingness to allow the world to burn so that you can stay committed to truth is even remotely similar.

[Leo Gura]

I am done with this topic.

@Emerald As a note for the future, I will not be indulging your desire for debate going forward. Have fun debating others, but I am not here to debate or win anything. That is a perversion of why I am here.

Edited May 8 by Leo Gura

[Emerald]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

I am done with this topic.

@Emerald As a note for the future, I will not be indulging your desire for debate going forward. Have fun debating others, but I will not here to debate or win anything.

That's fine. You don't have to debate with me.

You can if you choose to though.

[Hardkill]

I never thought that this thread would turn into a heated debate over trans and corruption.

[ExploringReality]

@Leo Gura  yes, my sincerity. I will not do that again, I have been doing kriya pranayama and it has opened this primal animal fire in me that I will learn to use with wisdom and maturity.

[Yimpa]

22 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

I never thought that this thread would turn into a heated debate over trans and corruption.

https://www.petmd.com/cat/general-health/cat-in-heat
 

12 minutes ago, zazen said:

You guys are talking past each other and getting tangled on the tension between freedom and equality.

Edited May 8 by Yimpa

[zazen]

@Emerald @Leo Gura You guys are talking past each other and getting tangled on the tension between freedom and equality.

Leo is right that equality constrains certain freedoms. Emerald is right that those constraints are what make meaningful freedoms possible for everyone else.

The libertarian maximalist position is more pro-a certain kind of freedom: which is freedom from law, rather than being free under and within law.

In nature there is no equality - dignity, fairness or rights. Equality is engineered by constraining the freedoms of the jungle where might makes right. It is nurturing nature.

Where there is no equality, there is only power. And often, that power is un-principled. With an engineered legal structure of government, power is somewhat centralised - hopefully with principles that render it just.

That structure then checks the decentralised power of individuals who lack any principles, and would otherwise abuse that power in the wild if no laws were to exist.

That is where you have a constraint of freedom in order for equality to exist, which straightens out your guys “debate”.

Edited May 8 by zazen

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 hour ago, ExploringReality said:

@Natasha Tori Maru

I'm here to sort through the illusions, not play referee for anyone's comfort.

@Leo Gura let them tire themselves out trying to dodge reality 

It's the intent here. Malicious. Don't try to rationalize vile misconduct for any attempt at 'truth'.

I hope you note how you are invoking Leo's reasoning for being blunt to mask your poor behaviour. And if you haven't noticed, well, I'm here to increase your awareness.

You should be apologizing to Emerald, not groveling and making excuses to Leo.

 

Edited May 8 by Natasha Tori Maru

[Emerald]

43 minutes ago, zazen said:

@Emerald @Leo Gura You guys are talking past each other and getting tangled on the tension between freedom and equality.

Leo is right that equality constrains certain freedoms. Emerald is right that those constraints are what make meaningful freedoms possible for everyone else.

The libertarian maximalist position is more pro-a certain kind of freedom: which is freedom from law, rather than being free under and within law.

In nature there is no equality - dignity, fairness or rights. Equality is engineered by constraining the freedoms of the jungle where might makes right. It is nurturing nature.

Where there is no equality, there is only power. And often, that power is un-principled. With an engineered legal structure of government, power is somewhat centralised - hopefully with principles that render it just.

That structure then checks the decentralised power of individuals who lack any principles, and would otherwise abuse that power in the wild if no laws were to exist.

That is where you have a constraint of freedom in order for equality to exist, which straightens out your guys “debate”.

That's fair. I just didn't agree with Leo's assertion that freedom and equality are ALWAYS a trade off.

From my perspective, I'm always advocating for equality because my top values are freedom and sovereignty.

I don't want my sovereignty to be squelched by top-down authoritarian forces... and I don't want others' sovereignty to be squelched by top-down authoritarian forces.

But the conversation with Leo, made me realize that, from the perspective of power... there is an inverse relationship between freedom and equality. And someone belongs to only dominant groups, they may take for granted that this trade-off between freedom and equality is the same for everyone.

For example, if you are a dictator... then allowing your constituents equality under the law to you would be a trade off of your own freedom.

But if you are the constituent of the dictatorship, freedom and equality might as well be the same thing.

Or if you're a slave owner... then your slaves gaining equality under the law is a concession of your own freedom.

But if you're the slave, freedom and equality might as well be the same thing.

And I think this is why, from Leo's perspective equality and freedom seem like a trade-off... because he is male and belongs only to "powerful side of the stick" groups.

So, he doesn't see the inherent fight for freedom, sovereignty, and liberation that is the core foundation of leftwing social justice movements.

Instead, he sees ideologues who want him to give up his freedom so that more of equality (as an idealistic abstract ideological value) can happen.

But from my perspective equality and freedom might as well be the same thing... because I am female. I recognize that without equality under the law, I would have no sovereignty or rights... and that my life would be fully governed by my husband and I wouldn't even have the right to vote.

He never has had to think about that or even consider a hypothetical scenario where a lack of equality would impede his freedom. So, he feels it's always a trade-off... and assumes that's true for everyone.

But it only is true for white heterosexual wealthy men living in America.

Nothing wrong with being that. It's just a limited perspective where you can't necessarily appreciate how interrelated equality and freedom actually are... because any equality granted to the masses will be a concession of your own freedom.

[Apparition of Jack]

“Why should I care about slavery abolition? Freeing slaves is just some radical leftist agenda. Slavery is as much a part of God as emancipation. I will not become a political advocate; if you can’t accept slavery as part of truth that’s YOUR problem”

- Leo Gura if he was around in 1860  

Edited May 8 by Apparition of Jack

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Ralston tells a story of a monk who wrote a book that the Church did not like. The Church imprisoned him and told him to renounce his book or they would kill him. He said No. They came back to him the next day and said, We will let you live, but we have rewritten your book to make it sound better. If you accept this rewrite of your book, we will let you live. He said No. They came back to him the next day and said, We have figured out how to reframe your philosophy so it no longer contradicts the Church, just sign on to this reframe and we will let you live. He said No. So they killed him.

That is a Good man. And anything less is corruption.

But he let his ideals to destroy themselves and now he is no longer here to fight for them.

Wouldn't it be smarter to compromise on his truth short term, in order to then get couple of more decades to teach Truth other people who need it?

[Emerald]

5 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

“Why should I care about slavery abolition? Freeing slaves is just some radical leftist agenda. Slavery is as much a part of God as emancipation. I will not become a political advocate; if you can’t accept slavery as part of truth that’s YOUR problem”

- Leo Gura if he was around in 1860  

100%

[Leo Gura]

Leftist equality, freedom, and goodness for all.

From Russia with Love.

-- Uncle Stalin

[Emerald]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Leftist equality, freedom, and goodness for all.

From Russia with Love.

-- Uncle Stalin

Couldn't help yourself, eh? 

[ExploringReality]

35 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

It's the intent here. Malicious.

The only malicious intent I have is ending someone in a boxing ring.

Edited May 8 by ExploringReality

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

In nature there is no equality - dignity, fairness or rights. Equality is engineered by constraining the freedoms of the jungle where might makes right. It is nurturing nature.

Equality doesn't contradict nature, but its an expansion of basic emotions which also found in nature, made possible through human cognitive abilities.

Edited May 8 by Nivsch

[Clarence]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Clarence I understand your point. I was trying to underscore the goofiness vibe of this issue.

Politics is all about striking the right vibe. There are serious vibe problems with the trans issue.

For example, tampon dispensers in men's bathrooms is a huge vibe problem. And I feel that leftists do not appreciate this vibe problem enough. And then snowflakery on this matter makes leftists very vulnerable to exploitation by right wingers.

I understand leftists just want minorities to be respected. But this will not happen so easily.

Thanks for your understanding.

I didn't know there were people asking for tampon dispensers in men's bathrooms. That's a huge vibe problem, indeed. What's even worse is that trans men don't even want to be associated with such things, and certainly don't want to see them in men's bathrooms. Plus, periods stop shortly after starting hormonal therapy, and most trans men get a hysterectomy anyway. So, on top of being a bad idea in politics, it makes no sense.

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Whether you like it or not, "chicks with dicks" is how much of the voting public sees the trans issue.

Perhaps, but the majority of people are at a low level of development and don’t think things through. That obviously bothers me, but that’s the state of the world.

When you use those terms yourself, it’s quite different. From my perspective, it doesn’t necessarily serve your point, and it can be hurtful, misunderstood, and also send out bad vibes.