Good Vs Evil

[Socrates]

@username Ok lets wrap this up. Where are you going with this?

[Guest username]

@Socrates  No, sorry. If you want to quit, then you leave it at that. I'm not teaching or trying to tell you anything. I'm just getting you to contemplate.

If you're not going to do the work, then it is pointless; I'm just going to be throwing more beliefs and ideas at you.

[Socrates]

@username Ok we will finish tomorrow.

[Guest username]

@Socrates We'll continue tomorrow. You don't have to do it with me, but if you're serious about this work, you'll be contemplating like this for the rest of your life.

[eskwire]

@username You just used the Socratic method on Socrates. I love you. I love you. I love you. 

[Socrates]

@eskwire That's the point

[Salaam]

@Socrates

Did you notice, that throughout this whole bout of talking these people never gave you an explanation of what they'd actually do in real life? As soon as you ask them about it, they switch topics and go back to their mental constructs, avoiding any talk of its effectiveness in action. Their whole philosophy requires a sheltered space for their mental contortions and extremism. But, life is about more then the space where people have their little seated meditations.

Their disconnected from change and difference and the conditions of physical reality. The bottom line is there are conditions our body adheres to in order to sustain it's life, and because we have a desire to be alive, we continue to put in effort that makes those conditions more sustainable. Things like breathable air and drinkable water, but also trust, coherency, and cooperation.

Can we step into a space of un-differentiated everything where those conditions become indistinguishable? Sure, it's a nice space to be in and a great counterbalance to getting over-enmeshed with conditions which can create distance and separation. But, eventually you have to go back into the world with it's conditions and dynamics and live and act and deal with things.

There is a yin and yang to the conditional and unconditional world, but many people don't seem to understand that and are a pendulum in suspension, attached to one pole as they seek to negate and dis-own the other.

[Socrates]

@Salaam The thing you mention here was the fact that gave birth to the whole topic and still it hasn't been clarified. 

[eskwire]

@Salaam @Socrates

Alright, you have the floor, what is the plan you two have to eradicate evil?

Everyone else's plan is to get liberated (aka eliminate the evil we generate first) and that's been made pretty clear to anyone listening with an open mind - those who don't insist on misunderstanding liberation as disconnection from reality and apathetic ne'erdowellism.

So. Lay it on us. I know Salaam has a radio show/podcast thing. Obviously, that is like steps 1-50 of evil eradication. I mean, I can't believe it's not gone yet. 

Edited May 12, 2017 by eskwire

[alyra]

@Socrates  I've only read the first and last page sorry if this was already brought up.

 

 but here is the catch of "the perfect world" - let's assume it's possible and has not been reached yet. but, we are here now. and it is reached through continuous growth. I presume these assumptions need not be validated?

 

 

now I refer to the mean value theorem. if a graph is continuous on all points, then all values between the starting and ending value must have been reached at least once! In this way, similarly to change from where we are to the perfection we seek, we must be at all intermediary levels of imperfection at some point. we can even go to the past where we were more chaotic, and see that those too were necessary as well.

 

now where do we stand with this realization? that in order to reach perfection, we must be where we are right now. so in pursuit of perfection, our imperfect path is the perfect way to do it.

 

ah, you claim that we could take a more perfect path? sure it's unfortunate that we backslide at times. but how exactly can we be sure that in the infinite complexities of our localized existence, it isn't necessary to backslide in the specific way we did, in order to grow on many other ways?

I'll answer myself here - we cannot know unless we've reached the perfect point where we CAN know. that future we're moving towards at a perfect pace. but wait - what is the perfect form of knowing, outside of directly being that thing which we wish to know? in fact, we must be imperfect as we are now, in order to perfectly know whether or not it was indeed perfect! do you not now see, how there is no true imperfection? the ignorance of imperfection is the perfect way to know it, and the perfect way to transcend it.

 

one might claim that this is all rabble, circular logic, unreasonable faith in imagined perfection.

 

but the illusion of time comes from change, and the illusion of change comes from desire to be what you aren't. reality is as it is, and is When it is. "you" aren't at all - as this requires denying the rest of reality in order to see that perspective at all! but, that perspective is a necessary thing to be in order to be all of reality. 

 

the confusing thing really is, how can one thing be simultaneously multiple things which contradict each other? you surely are not me as I am not you! 

but that is the illusion of self, the illusion of duality. the illusion of locality, of time, of space. in order to authentically be "me" I must be ignorant of all others; and so I am ignorant of that reality where you and I are really as one. Only in my ignorance does the illusion of contradiction exist - and that ignorance is necessary for the knowing of "me" be perfectly held.

 

imperfection is nothing more than the illusion of locality. but that illusion is perfectly necessary for the perfection we wish to obtain; we just must be ignorant to how we are already there, and our belief of time passing is part of that perfect goal.

 

why should we make any effort to change when we are already perfect? because the effort of change itself is part of the perfect role that we enact. the moralization of growth is necessary for us to be authentically ourselves. discovering this simply gives us a more consistent sense of purpose in our role. embracing what we cannot know in our necessary ignorance as a beautifully perfect reality we must live.

 

 

 

earlier you've said one must hold good and evil in order to discuss it - in a way this is true. however, as Leo said, one who seeks to discuss good in evil only reveals the ignorance of the true nature of good and evil. for when you've realized the true nature of good and evil, you cease to see any merit in believing in those local claims. in fact, if I truly saw past good and evil, and same with Leo, we would feel no need to even mention those words, nor even to speak against them. but see, this is a necessary stage to be in to reach the perfection of discarding such ignorance! 

 

what a fun journey this is full of confusing contradictions!

Edited May 12, 2017 by aryberry
spelling error

[alyra]

@Salaam wait but - how is it that we can do anything about good and evil, when there is no good and evil??

 

perhaps you are afraid that if the world saw no good and evil that we clearly would all pillage and burn each other to death! so let me ask you, why would I, who see no evil, choose to not pillage and burn? I honestly don't know, please explain to me why I would? The only reason to do such a thing I can fathom up is out of belief that my action eradicated evil (or stupidity or imperfection), and oh! that is not a belief I hold

Edited May 12, 2017 by aryberry
spelling error

[Scholar]

I haven't read all posts in this topic, but from what I can see the problem, and misunderstanding, lies in the words more than what is conveyed.

 

Maybe instead of saying good and evil does not exist, we simply have to investigate what good and evil exactly are to us. A mere internal inspection should be able to solve this problem. Investigating the mind and how it works is all that Leo is trying to motivate, the importance of which is revealed once we have understood the mind, which is another word for reality.

 

Good and evil, when we look at what we think it is, and we precisely inspect it, will reveal itself as either things we like, or things we do not like. When using the word evil, all it states is that one does not like it. We have to be very honest and conscious of the words we are using, because words, ideas, are what shape reality itself. 

Once we see that the word evil literally means "not liking"/"not wanting" something, we can bring this simple word in harmony with our objective in life. The feeling of not wanting something itself is what we refer to as evilness. The feeling is very real, it exists. But the feeling is merely a feeling. It can differ from one being to another. 

The recognition Leo is talking about, that good and evil is not real, is in a partical sense merely the recognition of what good and evil really are, feelings and thoughts in the mind. The thoughts and feelings are very real, the question is whether or not they are reliable.

We want peace, and if we investigate the mind, we will see that trusting our feelings will not give us that peace, nor will it give other beings peace. So, what do we do now that we cannot even trust our own feelings? If we cannot trust the system of good and evil, which is a system of thoughts and feelings, how then can we do anything?

Well, the feelings are still there, not matter whether we use the word evil and good, or not. The evilness will still be there, because it is a feeling.

 

What will happen if we stop following the feelings and instead be more conscious of the very consequences of these feelings. Obviously we do not want evil to exist in the mind, it is a very unpleasent feeling. The irony is that, if we follow the feeling evil, we will create more evil, more of the same feeling. This is something you can observe in your own life most likely. Following the feeling of anger creaters more anger, because you are a slave, a puppet, of the feeling that is controlling you.

That is what you seem to be socrates, a mere slave that cannot let go of it's own master. You do not seem to see the real consequences of your actions. You do not seem to see that following your feelings will create more and more of those feelings. This is all you really are doing. You can belief in evil and good, because they do exist, in your mind. They are as real as everything else. See, the illusion, just because we call it illusion, doesn't become a lesser part of reality than it was before. The word illusion merely means not following, literally. It is still part of reality, in an absolute sense. We simply choose not to be a slave. We are not using that feeling to motivate our actions.

 

There is no real confusion in your mind. You know exactly what evil and good is, even right now. They will never change, all that will change is your ideas of them. The ideas are never what really is.

 

Investigate what the words you are uttering really refer to, and what they mean, what they actually do to your reality. When Leo utters the words "good and evil do not exist" it will not change the fact of whether good and evil do exist or not. All it does is change action. This is what the words are for. They cannot speak truth, that's not what words are for. They merely construct a new system of belief, a new paradigm.

 

When we say we know something, all it means is that we have constructed an idea. This is what knowledge itself is, or atleast the idea about knowledge.

 

I would suggest to keep meditating, to keep inquiring the mind, reality itself, because there is really nothing else you have. You have not yet realize that you are constructing reality itself, that you are reality. If you do not see that, you will not realize the power of accepting the feelings that we call good and evil, of going beyond mere feelings, and use this very reality to serve itself.

 

Simply put: Your mind is ineffective.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Scholar

[SOUL]

Good and Evil

Perfect and Imperfect

Truth and False.... in the spiritual sense.

These are black and white dualism absolutes projected onto existence.that really is comprised of a rainbow spectrum.

Just another belief system imposed by the mind on everything.

Edited May 12, 2017 by SOUL

[Salaam]

@Socrates

I feel you man and I don't know if they'll ever clarify it for you or even attempt it.

@eskwire
lol, besides the snark and the strange opinions you seem to have about how I operate, those are interesting questions! Yay, we're talking about real life finally

But, a couple clarifications first. "Eradication of evil" is a primitive focus that's reactionary and extreme in my opinion (no offense, but you asked for my view). You don't destroy evil, you build harmony and stability through the evolution of our capacities, which gives people the choice and the capability to choose something better then evil. Rather than focusing on eradicating one thing, we instead focus on building and developing a whole host of foundational elements that branch out and interconnect with each other and depend on each other for the capability needed to consistently  choose and maintain better options then "evil" even in the face of intense stress and scarcity.

Basically you outgrow "evil", just like a person can outgrow depression and other issues.

Second thing, YOUR plan (not everyone's plan) to "get liberated" and "eliminate evil within yourself" has not been clearly explained, especially when it comes to its actual application in the face of intense stress and scarcity. The scope of this life strategy always seems to fail in addressing this side of life and is a big part of why Socrates started this thread in the first place.

This view, this strategy will not gain acceptance from skeptics if it can't hold up to a basic stress test.

But anyways, my plan revolves around those foundational elements I briefly mentioned above and their actual application in real life.  Building the capacities and adaptations for each element, mapping out their inter-connections, harmonizing their points of conflict and incoherence, and expressing or channeling that goldilocks zone of inter-connectivity in a way that protects potentiality and integrity while cascading along the five realms of health, choice, capability, expression, and connection.

I've been working my ass off in that respect for over a decade and have achieved some pretty amazing things for myself and others. Things that I share and give to others in not just my radio show, but in workshops, retreats, one-on-one sessions, and more informal interactions. Plus, my writings, articles, books, and videos I'm working on. There are many people who I've helped that have experienced immense healing and change. People suffering from sexual abuse, depression, mental and emotional trauma, relationship issues, identity issues, masculine and feminine balance, fear, loneliness, suicide... you have no idea of how much time and energy my wife and I devote to helping people heal and empower themselves. And not just from a distance, but actually inviting people into our home or stepping into tumultuous situations to help people when things are hard and messy. We do our work in the trenches and the mud of real life and people are grateful for it and tell us how we keep their hope alive about love being real and dreams being achievable because we live and hurt and heal and grow honestly. We touch all sides of life, the brutal and the beautiful and we succeed, no matter the pressure or difficulty.   

I do all this while still working a full time job and using my abundance from my success in that job to provide a home and aid for people who need my support.

I don't just sit here and isolate myself, disparaging people like some armchair quarterback or backseat driver. I risk myself and invest and apply effort. Making things better.

So yup, if you have any other questions just ask, the plan is huge and multi-faceted and always evolving. It has to be, because it aims to encompass the harmonization of all aspects of humanity and the world around us. 

@aryberry

You seem to assume that I'm overly attached to the concepts of good and evil, when I'm not. I'm focused on the actions and consequences and pressures that drove life before those words even existed. Being blind or unseeing of the concepts of good and evil don't change those fundamental issues. Can you handle a scarcity of resources and the pressure of that scarcity to such a degree that you can still cooperate and not exploit others around you? Can you handle rejection from another person and not retaliate? Can you handle your desires for energy, procreation, and expansion without harming those around you? Can you give as much as you take? Are people and the world happier, healthier, and more energized around you? Can you protect those beings who are newly arrived to the physical realm and depend on the shelter of others to grow enough to contribute and care for themselves?

Can you handle the fact that human beings are still evolving and still carry "flaws" or vulnerabilities that must be balanced, developed, and harmonized?

Each of these questions come with conditions and stresses that must be faced and adapted to, that do not happen just by being blind or un-seeing to the concepts of good and evil. They don't automatically come from sitting and meditating all day or experiencing moments where everything is undifferentiated everything.

There is a process that includes more than the dropping of concepts. It requires action and involvement and many other things. Not passivity and isolation.

@Scholar

Not liking or not wanting something is a poor definition of evil in my view. Life is more dynamic then that. Just because I don't like the thought of eating brussel sprouts right now does not make them evil. It sounds like your mistaking the feeling of repulsion for evil

Also, feelings are signals and a form of communication, they have a reason for they way they act and express and can be pretty damn coherent if harmonized with. Like their really good with describing distance, contrast, intensity, and when you can read the mixtures within feelings, and the different layers and nuances, things can really get cooking.

Pressure, flow, composition, contrast, captivation, distance, direction... I read all that stuff like braille within my body. It's pretty damn peaceful within my body to be honest. But, that's because I have a great connection with my feelings and a high degree of communication and mutual cooperation with them.

 

Edited May 12, 2017 by Salaam

[eskwire]

43 minutes ago, Salaam said:

Basically you outgrow "evil", just like a person can outgrow depression and other issues.

Second thing, YOUR plan (not everyone's plan) to "get liberated" and "eliminate evil within yourself" has not been clearly explained, especially when it comes to its actual application in the face of intense stress and scarcity.

I agree that it's about outgrowing evil, and that's what I mean by eliminating it through liberation. It becomes a non-issue. Socrates is definitely talking about eradicating it.

Perhaps liberation is not everyone's plan on the whole forum, but it is the basic "plan" or "path" of the people with whom you two argue with all the time (about this topic). This topic has been rehashed a number of times. I say vague things about liberation, you say vague things about multi dimensional synchronicity. We may even be talking about the exact same shit! ?

I have explained myself in another discussion with you and it was clear to me. Why does it matter if a skeptic wants to ride my ass about it? Or if Socrates is confused, nobody can fix it for him, and his ego can't take it? What stress test are you proposing and would your methodologies hold up under the same test? What are you even talking about? 

It sounds like you do therapy-ish work and that's nice. Therapy was helpful for me because it pointed me toward enlightened teachers. I just don't understand why your work can't gel with these spiritual matters we discuss.

I really don't see this big difference and distinction that gets you two all argumentative and judgemental about people's paths or ideas on this forum. Like, shouldn't you spend more of your time talking to mainstream medical and psych professionals about yours ideas and plans if you think the people who dig enlightenment on here are just a bunch of dodos?

These ideas, meant to assist you to get to a place beyond ideas, have helped me immensely. I remember to be alive now, and ideas like "harmony" and "multi faceted something something" didn't help me get there. So, why shit on my path?  

Honestly, I don't know what you even propose people do, but from my experience, if I forced a ton of demands on myself about how I needed to act, how many habits I had to install, how many people I needed to help, and how many jobs I need to have, I just wouldn't do anything. I would feel too neurotic to move and I'd be a huge bitch.

Maybe you have a lot of energy. Good for you. Your world isn't everyone's. 

Edit. Sorry, I get frustrated talking to you two. I've had some enlightenment experiences, but it has not stuck. As such, I am still susceptible to getting egoically defensive. I have also "experienced" what we are talking about - when we talk about Truth, enlightenment, liberation, non-duality - and the part that gets me is that...you guys literally don't know what you're talking about when you dismiss it. You just have to be there, man. ?

Edited May 12, 2017 by eskwire

[SOUL]

A cheetah catches prey, then along comes some lion who runs off the cheetah and steals it away... is it called evil or natural?.

Someone buys a sandwich, then along I come and run them off, steals the sandwich... is it called evil or natural?

In the "story" of the garden of Eden they were supposedly in a certain original state but "fell" from it when they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

I don't believe in mythical tales from religious books but I can't help to notice the message in this one, it's quite revealing.

Abuse is what it is but if we don't label it "evil" does it cease to be abuse? The label doesn't change what it is.

What about working on certain days or ways? Or eating certain foods? Or identifying as self?

Does the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil feed your mind's views?

 

[Guest username]

@Socrates Feel free to continue whenever you want:

 

What is a problem in reality?

[The]

Sucks to be a cheetah.. Piece of shit lion

Edited May 12, 2017 by The

[Socrates]

This is going nowhere

[Salaam]

@eskwire

It's all good, I can understand the frustration. No worries.

I wish I could explain to people how there are evolutionary firewalls to expanded cognition that require increases in energetic capacitance in order for the brain to exponentiate it's processing power. But, even that sentence won't make shit sense to people. How do you get people to accept and understand split-second shifts that occur under our consciousness that are incredibly complex and interconnect many different automated systems within the body, which all effect and color your cognition and recollection within that moment? Do you know how much training and adaptation it takes to even attempt such a thing? But, who cares, in other people's minds it's not even worth the consideration because it's not a part of their reality. I understand that and I don't expect anything or blame people because of it.

Lol, whatever. It used to bother me a lot... the costs of success. 

Anyways, you can believe me or not, but I understand "enlightenment" or "non-duality" experiences. I call it undifferentiated everything and can access that space whenever I want. But, unlike other people here who seek to be in that space all the time and see that as freedom I see it as the yin to the yang of differentiation. I choose both and am both and reside in both. I superimpose them onto each other and let their interactions inform and help me evolve.

I don't dismiss it, I include it and harmonize it with everything else.

But, again who cares. Some people will just want non-duality and other people might resonate with my choice and wonder at a path where there is an opportunity for superposition and consistency with both physical reality as it is commonly understood to be, plus so much more.

Do I think mine is preferable? Sure. Superior? Yuck, I don't indulge in superiority and inferiority paradigms.