Shaming non-vegans is not right.

[sholomar]

2 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

I wouldn't say it's wrong because I understand the vegan perspective and I think it can be reasonable to be angry about people contributing to the suffering of living beings. The thing is that it doesn't WORK most likely. If you shame a meat eater most likely they'll just dislike you and feel attacked and automatically get defensive, thats how the human mind works. Instead a more calm approach, presenting arguments without personal attacks, inviting people to learn, that's probably more efficient. 

Meat eating is simply part of our evolutionary nature. We evolved during the paleolithic era consuming meat.  Many animal species eat other animals. The moral argument is one that is really just man made.. yes animals suffer but they suffer in nature as well, often in far more cruel deaths than having their throats cut by man to become a ribeye.  There's no easy answer because we don't want rainforest cut down to grow more cattle for south americans but at the same time we can't and won't force veganism on the planet.  We really don't want to keep growing the population in my opinion... those people like Musk who say we should keep breeding, the planet can handle 30 billion people, in my opinion contribute to the problem.  Prepping 3 lbs of ground beef to grill into burgers as I speak.  Unlike many I would eat insects or various other meat related compounds if they managed to make them taste good. Not going to live off grains and vegetables however.... my diet is lower carbohydrate.

 

Edited January 9 by sholomar

[Sugarcoat]

5 minutes ago, sholomar said:

Meat eating is simply part of our evolutionary nature. We evolved during the paleolithic era consuming meat.  Many animal species eat other animals. The moral argument is one that is really just man made.. yes animals suffer but they suffer in nature as well, often in far more cruel deaths than having their throats cut by man to become a ribeye.  There's no easy answer because we don't want rainforest cut down to grow more cattle for south americans but at the same time we can't and won't force veganism on the planet.  We really don't want to keep growing the population in my opinion... those people like Musk who say we should keep breeding, the planet can handle 30 billion people, in my opinion contribute to the problem.  Prepping 3 lbs of ground beef to grill into burgers as I speak.  Unlike many I would eat insects or various other meat related compounds if they managed to make them taste good. Not going to live off grains and vegetables however.... my diet is lower carbohydrate.

 

I don’t have a problem with meat eating per se. I have a problem with modern factory farming. That’s cruel and unsustainable. Science says a plant predominant diet is optimal, so we don’t need so much meat, just a little bit one can eat. And if eating it’s preferably grass finished and sustainably  raised. That’s the ideal. So I understand vegans who shame meat eaters because many people eat too much meat and eat it conventionally raised in factory farms which isn’t good.

I agree about not increasing the population. I’m open to insects etc too. But as I said one can lower meat intake and eat predominantly plants and eat sustainably raised meat, I think that could potentially be sustainable for a lot of people if not the whole planet somehow

[Scholar]

On 8.1.2025 at 0:03 AM, Basman said:

Veganism is extreme relative to what is normative. When I call veganism extreme is descriptive not pejorative.

Then what you say meaningless. Every single human right has been achieved by extremism, according to this standard. Every single moral step forward in the history of mankind was extreme, relative to what was normative.

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, sholomar said:

We also use farmland, quite large amounts of it, to grow corn which we turn into ethanol which fuels vehicles which I'm rather questionable is actually a good thing or not, and they're going to push E15 soon over E10.

https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/us-corn-based-ethanol-worse-climate-than-gasoline-study-finds-2022-02-14/

That's definitely important to question. But the majority of farmland isn't used to produce ethanol.

I forget the exact statistics on it, but I think it's only like 10%. Though look that up because it's been a while since I looked at the breakdown.

But depending on which region, anywhere between 60% and 80% is used to grow mono-crop grains to feed cows, pigs, and chickens in factory farms. So, that's how the vast majority of our agricultural land is being used.

[Emerald]

@Something Funny @Scholar Methinks the ladies doth protest too much.

[Basman]

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

Then what you say meaningless. Every single human right has been achieved by extremism, according to this standard. Every single moral step forward in the history of mankind was extreme, relative to what was normative.

So you agree then LOL.

[Whitney Edwards]

7 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

I wouldn't say it's wrong because I understand the vegan perspective and I think it can be reasonable to be angry about people contributing to the suffering of living beings. The thing is that it doesn't WORK most likely. If you shame a meat eater most likely they'll just dislike you and feel attacked and automatically get defensive, thats how the human mind works. Instead a more calm approach, presenting arguments without personal attacks, inviting people to learn, that's probably more efficient. 

Are you a vegan personally? 

Edited January 10 by Buck Edwards

[sholomar]

7 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

I don’t have a problem with meat eating per se. I have a problem with modern factory farming. That’s cruel and unsustainable. Science says a plant predominant diet is optimal, so we don’t need so much meat, just a little bit one can eat. And if eating it’s preferably grass finished and sustainably  raised. That’s the ideal. So I understand vegans who shame meat eaters because many people eat too much meat and eat it conventionally raised in factory farms which isn’t good.

I agree about not increasing the population. I’m open to insects etc too. But as I said one can lower meat intake and eat predominantly plants and eat sustainably raised meat, I think that could potentially be sustainable for a lot of people if not the whole planet somehow

It really is the most efficient way to not waste anything though, that's the problem. The land can't sustain animals free ranging, especially when so much of the land is used to grow corn to make ethanol for cars.  It's an inefficient use of land and manpower to have chickens all free range, and even if you let them, often they spend most of their time in the barn anyways because it's protection from the elements and predators.

As morally questionable as modern farming may be, corporations want to be efficient... they literally do use all parts of the animal, and if we want to make affordable mass market meat for every grocery small grocery store on the planet, there's not really an easy way to avoid it.   I would argue we should get rid of ethanol for vehicles and use that land for cattle feed or increased grazing/free range, and then we can stop growing things like Alfalfa (used as cattle feed) in california using that precious water and have more land resources to produce food instead of fuel.

I try to buy "certified humane" eggs when at all possible, and most beef cattle is not kept in pens, they mostly graze outside. It's dairy cattle that are kept in pens, chickens for eggs (if they are not "certified humane" not to be confused with "american humane certified"), and pigs. Don't really eat much pork personally.  That area in the great plains where it's too hilly to farm, like western south dakota, drive out there and you'll see the large numbers of beef cattle grazing on the land.

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-some-dairy-cows-kept-in-barns-instead-of-out-on-pasture

If they really wanted plant based meat consumption to increase they should have subsidized impossible and beyond like they subsidize the farm industry as a whole during Biden's term. Unfortunately because it's not "natural" and considered "processed" neither side (vegans or meat eaters) wants to embrace this (in my opinion) decent meat alternative, and it's too expensive to really consider replacing meat with without a subsidy to cut the price in half (or more)

 

Edited January 10 by sholomar

[Whitney Edwards]

@Sugarcoat what kind of meat do you eat (if you eat at all)? 

[Whitney Edwards]

11 hours ago, Michael569 said:

I am not vegan

And the entire time I'm thinking you're a vegan. Facepalm 

I eat a lot of chicken and fish, it's my primary diet. I had low iron and hemoglobin levels and my doctor had advised me to incorporate meat and fish and eggs along with iron pills. 

Even though I might not need anything nutrition wise, I will still continue to eat meat, eggs and fish because I generally get the feeling that my health and mood are better when I eat them versus not eating them. I walk better, faster, I can do my work better. The animal protein helps me. There's a huge difference in how I feel if I have to say from direct experience. 

Regarding vegan diet, it doesn't fulfill me, I feel sloppy on it despite taking multi vitamins and I found that it's kinda expensive to maintain it in the long run, even options like free range eggs or grass fed meat, these are not cheap things. The moment anything is labeled organic it's expensive. 

[Whitney Edwards]

9 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

I don’t have a problem with meat eating per se. I have a problem with modern factory farming. That’s cruel and unsustainable. Science says a plant predominant diet is optimal, so we don’t need so much meat, just a little bit one can eat. And if eating it’s preferably grass finished and sustainably  raised. That’s the ideal. So I understand vegans who shame meat eaters because many people eat too much meat and eat it conventionally raised in factory farms which isn’t good.

I agree about not increasing the population. I’m open to insects etc too. But as I said one can lower meat intake and eat predominantly plants and eat sustainably raised meat, I think that could potentially be sustainable for a lot of people if not the whole planet somehow

I don't agree with this. Number one reason being that factory farm meat is much  cheaper than grass fed and sustainably raised meat. Unless the prices are reduced, most people (especially low income groups) will stick with factory farm meat. They simply can't afford it sustainably. In the long run veganism might collapse as an elitist option because mostly rich people can afford all the organic options and if veganism has to win, then prices of grass fed sustainably raised meat need to be sufficiently lowered to appeal to low income groups. 

I saw the prices on organic grass fed free range eggs. And I was put off by that, although they taste better and are even healthier and I would have loved to get them, but I switched to my cheap regular white farm factory eggs to maintain my budget and I eat a lot of eggs to keep up my protein. Not to say that I don't eat vegetables. I do. But I like a balanced diet so I incorporate all kinds of things, both veggies, fish,chicken, eggs and whatever I can afford. So instead of being angry (and shaming) at people who eat farm factory meat, maybe vegans can support their movement by focusing on how to make organic options more cheaper and sustainable for folks who can't afford it. Shaming is not the way. You understand it, but it's not ethical to shame or bully a non-vegan. It will backfire badly. I get that I might be contributing to animal suffering but I don't wish to sacrifice much for it, not due to lack of empathy, but for concern for myself and I don't find that selfish  and I don't care about what Vegan science says because their science might be agenda driven so difficult to trust and if better options are available I might switch to them as in cheaper options in the future. 

 

Edited January 10 by Buck Edwards

[Sugarcoat]

6 hours ago, Buck Edwards said:

Are you a vegan personally? 

No

[Something Funny]

9 hours ago, Emerald said:

@Something Funny @Scholar Methinks the ladies doth protest too much.

Hats off to you 

[Sugarcoat]

9 hours ago, sholomar said:

It really is the most efficient way to not waste anything though, that's the problem. The land can't sustain animals free ranging, especially when so much of the land is used to grow corn to make ethanol for cars.  It's an inefficient use of land and manpower to have chickens all free range, and even if you let them, often they spend most of their time in the barn anyways because it's protection from the elements and predators.

As morally questionable as modern farming may be, corporations want to be efficient... they literally do use all parts of the animal, and if we want to make affordable mass market meat for every grocery small grocery store on the planet, there's not really an easy way to avoid it.   I would argue we should get rid of ethanol for vehicles and use that land for cattle feed or increased grazing/free range, and then we can stop growing things like Alfalfa (used as cattle feed) in california using that precious water and have more land resources to produce food instead of fuel.

I try to buy "certified humane" eggs when at all possible, and most beef cattle is not kept in pens, they mostly graze outside. It's dairy cattle that are kept in pens, chickens for eggs (if they are not "certified humane" not to be confused with "american humane certified"), and pigs. Don't really eat much pork personally.  That area in the great plains where it's too hilly to farm, like western south dakota, drive out there and you'll see the large numbers of beef cattle grazing on the land.

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-some-dairy-cows-kept-in-barns-instead-of-out-on-pasture

If they really wanted plant based meat consumption to increase they should have subsidized impossible and beyond like they subsidize the farm industry as a whole during Biden's term. Unfortunately because it's not "natural" and considered "processed" neither side (vegans or meat eaters) wants to embrace this (in my opinion) decent meat alternative, and it's too expensive to really consider replacing meat with without a subsidy to cut the price in half (or more)

 

I understand if everyone switched to grass finished animal products maybe it wouldn’t be sustainable either because you’d need a bunch of land for that. But that’s why I said it’s key for people to significantly reduce their meat intake and switch to a more plant based diet. And that doesn’t necessarily mean switching to heavily processed meat alternatives, one could eat legumes for example. If one can afford grass finished animal products I think it’s better to buy it, but if not then I understand one would buy conventionally raised.

[Sugarcoat]

8 hours ago, Buck Edwards said:

I don't agree with this. Number one reason being that factory farm meat is much  cheaper than grass fed and sustainably raised meat. Unless the prices are reduced, most people (especially low income groups) will stick with factory farm meat. They simply can't afford it sustainably. In the long run veganism might collapse as an elitist option because mostly rich people can afford all the organic options and if veganism has to win, then prices of grass fed sustainably raised meat need to be sufficiently lowered to appeal to low income groups. 

I understand that not everyone can afford grass finished products that’s why I think it’s okay they buy the conventionally raised. But those who can afford the grass finished I think it’s a good idea to buy it. But most importantly I think we should reduce our meat intake and switch to a more plant dominant diet, science says it’s optimal. And it does not have to be more expensive.

 

8 hours ago, Buck Edwards said:

I saw the prices on organic grass fed free range eggs. And I was put off by that, although they taste better and are even healthier and I would have loved to get them, but I switched to my cheap regular white farm factory eggs to maintain my budget and I eat a lot of eggs to keep up my protein. Not to say that I don't eat vegetables. I do. But I like a balanced diet so I incorporate all kinds of things, both veggies, fish,chicken, eggs and whatever I can afford. So instead of being angry (and shaming) at people who eat farm factory meat, maybe vegans can support their movement by focusing on how to make organic options more cheaper and sustainable for folks who can't afford it. Shaming is not the way. You understand it, but it's not ethical to shame or bully a non-vegan. It will backfire badly. I get that I might be contributing to animal suffering but I don't wish to sacrifice much for it, not due to lack of empathy, but for concern for myself and I don't find that selfish  and I don't care about what Vegan science says because their science might be agenda driven so difficult to trust and if better options are available I might switch to them as in cheaper options in the future. 

 

Making organic options cheaper is a good idea to make more people buy it yes. I don’t know though if it’s possible to make it cheaper because there’s a reason it’s more expensive. But if you reduce animal products intake you could potentially I’m not sure because I haven’t calculated difference between a more plant based diet vs more animal based , but it could potentially be cheaper to eat more veggies, like legumes for example are cheap. And then you’d have more money left so the few times you eat meat you may afford the better organic options. But as I said I don’t know that for sure as I haven’t calculated the difference.
 

I don’t think it’s a good idea to be angry and shame people who eat conventionally raised animal products that’s why, I said that I have an understanding of vegans who do that because of the tremendous suffering it causes animals. But I don’t believe it works to shame people into making change, so it’s generally not a good idea.

Whether to trust the science or not I’m not fully sure. But I just said what the science said and that is that eating a more plant dominant diet is optimal.

[Sugarcoat]

9 hours ago, Buck Edwards said:

@Sugarcoat what kind of meat do you eat (if you eat at all)? 

I usually only eat meat on holidays or occasionally when my parents barbecue, then I eat the meat my parents buy which is usually conventionally raised. Other than that I eat chicken and eggs sometimes , also what my parents buy so it’s conventionally raised, but I have decided to eat more plant based this year. Hopefully I don’t sound like a hypocrite 

My goal this year is to eat more plant based. I’m still an omnivore so I eat animal products but I thought I’d limit chicken to maybe once a week, I’m gonna buy organic meat occasionally, then fish about once a week. Something like that

Edited January 10 by Sugarcoat

[Whitney Edwards]

27 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

I usually only eat meat on holidays or occasionally when my parents barbecue, then I eat the meat my parents buy which is usually conventionally raised. Other than that I eat chicken and eggs sometimes , also what my parents buy so it’s conventionally raised, but I have decided to eat more plant based this year. Hopefully I don’t sound like a hypocrite 

My goal this year is to eat more plant based. I’m still an omnivore so I eat animal products but I thought I’d limit chicken to maybe once a week, I’m gonna buy organic meat occasionally, then fish about once a week. Something like that

Thank you for the response. 

[Sugarcoat]

52 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

Thank you for the response. 

No problem 

[Javfly33]

There is a brand new Documentary by Arte TV (french television) that recently came Up where It was found about 30-40% of the animals in the organic farming industry were found to have some kind of illness, whether is over stressed cows producing double of milk that their body is used to, chickens that actually do not go outside and overcrowded, pigs living in their own shit, etc...

So if organic farming has this kind of conditions, just think how It might work in  industry farming. This is basically to say at this point unless you are eating from a local small farm of your village, most animals are sick and living in under-health conditions, now the question is do you want to put food into your body that is in such conditions. 

Opting for a Vegan food is also challenging since due to soil degradation it entails high deficiencies in most nutrients and vitamins. Also in western world there is not enough variety of Vegan type of food unless you have access to certain type of supermarkets.

This type of youtubers anyways do not contribute to their cause, at the contrary they make people hate them and just eat meat because of this nonsensical persecution. 

Edited January 10 by Javfly33

[Nivsch]

@Javfly33 Is Pasture rised considered better in that sense?