Gender Fluidity should be an Adult topic

[Adrian colby]

I don’t know if this is of any help but I have identified as a boy/man and male for the majority of my life. In the beginning I was believing what I was told by my parents, peers, culture but something kicked in around 5 years old that didn’t reflect everyone identifying me as a girl. It was persistent and severely distressing so I was treated in my teens when I was finally referred to a clinic after years of therapists, psychiatrists ending in a suicide attempt. My ‘feelings’ turned out to have a biological basis. Although I looked female, I had gonadal disgenesis which wasn’t known till my teens when I was tested for disorders during my diagnosis process. I participated in a study in 2014 that showed I had a mutation in one of my genes that is typical of males but not females. It cannot currently be tested but I speculate my BNSTi in my hypothalamus falls into the male range as this is what is seen in brain autopsy studies of transgenders. There is an argument over neurological studies as the standard deviation and error bars issue in the research methodology shows too much overlap between the sexes but a recent development by a professor Menon ( Stanford university) taught an AI with large American and European samples of ‘cis’ gendered male and female brains by fMRI and identified three regions that seem to be sex specific. When the AI was used to identify the next set of scans, it identified whether the person was male or female ( as in they are both biologically and identify congruently) with above 90% accuracy. If the incorrect identifications are ironed out, or the reason possibly being these people are actually biologically variant but don’t know,  then this will end the statistical overlap argument and potentially be used as a diagnostic tool. 

( just for context, it was created as a tool to be used for helping diagnose neurological disorders that are sex specific. There has been no use of the method on trans but the software is available for anyone who should like to do this)

having gone through awakening, I know I am ‘awareness’ and both identity and the perception of the body and all things in the objective universe are a construction of the mind.

but if I were to come back into this ‘character or avatar’ that I’m experiencing I would say that it contains biological attributes of both sexes that in whatever combination or whichever attribute is predominant, expresses as a male gender.

I as this avatar am not male or female but both. Whichever factor was predominant is what has swayed me to go to conformity within the societal expectation of a male/man. I do not identify as trans and do not engage with the lgbt community. I got my treatment and reintegrated back into the society I came from.( I believe a lot of problem stem from the creation of trans as an identity rather than a description of a biological variant)

while my body ( as does everyone’s) contains dimorphic structures that can change to either male or female via chemical triggers( secondary characteristic), anything that required physical development during gestation has been surgically altered to the best of a surgeons ability so my superficial, bodily appearance is male. While I can orgasm I do not have the reproductive or hormonal production of either male or female and never have. That is managed artificially. 

My condition is invisible and doesn’t exist in day to day life. I fulfill my role as a man, a husband, a brother and a son and my condition doesn’t exist until I mention it and it forms in the mind of a person who is told. Pre conceived beliefs begin to be projected onto me and ‘their’ behavior changes. The reality was their direct experience prior to me telling them anything which was completely normal. After telling them, they start projecting their ideas onto me. This has prompted me to never talk about it for both my and the other persons sake. For me to create discomfort in a weak minded person who cannot control their own thoughts and resulting behavior would not be very conscious of me so I no longer do it. Since dissolving the ego somewhat there is no need or feeling to justify my identification. It just is. 
 

if this stuff is to be taught to young children then it should be approached holistically encompassing not just variations but the two binaries between which that spectrum appears. All of it needs to be taught with equal importance. Sexual Biology ‘is’ binary in a human and that is the male or female deviation of a dimorphic structure of which there are many in the body. Multiple simplex binary structures can all be coherent or sometimes incoherent causing complex variants we see as the many emergent genders.

thats only one explanation but we can’t forget there is the purely psychological recognition of social constructs and those who loosen themselves from that regardless of the biological underlying attributes. both exist.
 

Everything we know is highly complex and emergent from a simplex unity. the complexity of our culture and the understanding of biology and our higher psychological faculties is not something that can be taught to a child. We only know these things from having gone through all these experiences, overcoming our animalistic reactions and becoming more aware of our cognitive functions, studying, contemplating and regaining mastery over them. 
 

perhaps it would be better to teach children awareness and awareness of complexity instead of trying to break the complexity appart to save them from the experiences they inherently have to go through to learn?

[Bobby_2021]

4 hours ago, Alexop said:

Sweden the big mamma of gender equality has made considerable efforts to equalize the gender gap in professions, but the result was the opposite, the gap is even bigger in Scandinavia than in more traditional countries.

lmao...

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

An important part of this course would be teaching teens how to distinguish between healthy and toxic forms of masculinity and femininity

Will they include any politically incorrect stuff? Like legitimate masculinity will be a little toxic, confrontational, competitive and direct.

Will they teach that? Because that will not be egalitarian. Academia can only teach politically correct stuff. Survival has many politically incorrect stuff.

Also the first question I will ask my teacher would be "What is a woman?" The answer would be enough to end the course.

Edited April 22 by Bobby_2021

[Yimpa]

Here is an example of a conservative father who opened his mind and heart after his son came out as transgender:

This goes to show that not all conservatives are close-minded and extremely ideological with their worldview. The son taught the father well.

[BlueOak]

As always and with everything, people look at 10% (or, in this case 1%) of people and then say there are not enough role models. There are not enough men/women to date.

There are tens of millions of average working men that we could use as examples in my country alone. The average is not enough for people. They need a weightlifter who is a billionaire and dates five women at the same time to take notice. That isn't masculinity, that's a cartoon character or caricature to get your attention. It also doesn't help the average person because they are so far removed from them, regardless of ideology or beliefs.

[Alexop]

5 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Will they include any politically incorrect stuff? Like legitimate masculinity will be a little toxic, confrontational, competitive and direct.

Healthy masculinity is not toxic, using violence in appropriate contexts is not toxic. Slitting the throats of some nazis who invaded your country is still healthy masculinity.

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

To put it simply, they are not masculine enough to inspire young men.

No. To put it simply, young men are baboons.

[Alexop]

5 hours ago, Yimpa said:

Here is an example of a conservative father who opened his mind and heart after his son came out as transgender:

 

Nice one, so it seems you can transtion later in life and still be happy also.

[Bobby_2021]

16 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

So it's not that society "hates" masculine men,

They may not be overtly explicit in their intent, but if it looks like the actions they take are suppressing my masculinity, they hate masculinity at least from my pov. 

[Alexop]

1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said:

They may not be overtly explicit in their intent, but if it looks like the actions they take are suppressing my masculinity, they hate masculinity at least from my pov. 

Can you give me an example?

[Karmadhi]

23 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not so hard.

David Deida's books explain the masculine/feminine dynamic very well. You can treat the topic as a social science and a kind of applied psychology. Similar to sex-ed.

It's not hard to turn masculine and feminine into a course. It's easier to understand than algebra. And it doesn't take 10 years of classes to get it.

Good luck getting the liberal green people to accept these courses.

I live in a liberal green city and just saying that "men tend to prefer more technical fields like engineering" will get you labeled as a sexist and patriarchal.

It happened to me countless, countless times until I gave up.

 I have read "Way of the Superior Man". it is amaizing book.

But it is too radical to be taught to a green audience.

Such book would work way better to a blue or orange audience.

Most green people tend to demonize gender differences to the point where they downright ignore they even exist.

 

Edited April 23 by Karmadhi

[Bobby_2021]

4 hours ago, Alexop said:

Can you give me an example?

It's hard to to articulate since the masculine repression is, well, it's repressed. It will not find expression unlike toxic masculinity.

One striking example is in how office spaces today has become sterilized and contrived environment due to policing hy the HR departments on how men should behave in office spaces. Even complements to women are dangerous. And you cannot directly talk to women or be too confrontational. You have to be sensitive all the time. On the surface all this looks good, but if forces men to walk on egg shells all the time. Or you have to be in a different mode when women are here.

A new grad complained on social media about how corporations were discriminating him for getting women placed and they revoked his offer letter. He was devastated. It's like you can't say anything that mildly offends the feminist hive mind. They say men should open up about their struggles and when they do they are met with this treatment.

This walking on egg shells drives people mad. But they all repress it internally and needs time with the boys to decompress from this madness. It's also a reason why I tried extra hard to not work in office jobs. It will drive me crazy.

42 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Good luck getting the liberal green people to accept these courses.

I live in a liberal green city and just saying that "men tend to prefer more technical fields like engineering" will get you labeled as a sexist and patriarchal.

It happened to me countless, countless times until I gave up.

 I have read "Way of the Superior Man". it is amaizing book.

But it is too radical to be taught to a green audience.

Such book would work way better to a blue or orange audience.

Most green people tend to demonize gender differences to the point where they downright ignore they even exist.

 

You have lots of internalized misogyny. jk.

Edited April 23 by Bobby_2021

[Leo Gura]

49 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Good luck getting the liberal green people to accept these courses.

I live in a liberal green city and just saying that "men tend to prefer more technical fields like engineering" will get you labeled as a sexist and patriarchal.

It happened to me countless, countless times until I gave up.

 I have read "Way of the Superior Man". it is amaizing book.

But it is too radical to be taught to a green audience.

Such book would work way better to a blue or orange audience.

Most green people tend to demonize gender differences to the point where they downright ignore they even exist.

Don't over-generalize. Most Green people can appreciate the value of masculinity and femininity without making them some rigid, exclusive, traditional roles.

If you consume too much online politics then you will get a skewed picture of this situation. Politics and culture wars on social media are not an accurate representation of how people feel about this issue.

Edited April 23 by Leo Gura

[Bobby_2021]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Don't over-generalize. Most Green people can appreciate the value of masculinity anf femininity without making them some rigid, exclusive, traditional roles.

That's true. But there are insane 1% of people on the either extremes. 

These loud 2% is enough to overthrow the sane majority. 2%, being a conservative estimate.

No way you are going to get printed on paper, men are more suited for engineering roles, and women are for nurses. That just will not happen. You can say that, but not on paper.

[Alexop]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Good luck getting the liberal green people to accept these courses.

I live in a liberal green city and just saying that "men tend to prefer more technical fields like engineering" will get you labeled as a sexist and patriarchal.

It happened to me countless, countless times until I gave up.

 I have read "Way of the Superior Man". it is amaizing book.

But it is too radical to be taught to a green audience.

Such book would work way better to a blue or orange audience.

Most green people tend to demonize gender differences to the point where they downright ignore they even exist.

 

I won't even call those people green. They are just a wicked varriant of blue. I see not difference between their behavior and a blue pope father who silences his daughter at the dinner table because she dared to favor for abortion or divorce. Green is not just another flavor of blue, it integrates the freedom of speech from orange. These feminazis are not green, and if the office example that @Bobby_2021  brought up is really so radical, then I feel sorry for men working in such toxic environments. All the priviledged spoiled girls are now political activists and thought police.

Honestly I did not experience this kind of toxic femininity outside social media, but I see them how they hoard in comment sections and use the power in numbers to overpower the good arguments of the conservatives. All they have is power in numbers and empowering the victim. They can't love the opressor which is tragic, because nobody will change his/her mind through opression. 

 

And ultimately the karma will bite them in the ass. As I see in Sweden's politics now with the maaasive popularity increase of the conservative party. People are not idiots, when instead of doing good politics you just try to not be racist, then people will vote those who do politics instead.

Edited April 23 by Alexop

[Alexop]

52 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

No way you are going to get printed on paper, men are more suited for engineering roles, and women are for nurses. That just will not happen. You can say that, but not on paper.

Every sane swede or norvegian to whom I explained this agreed. As you said, it is the loud minority who distorts our perception. They all gather on social media and create the perception that there are a lot of them, but the sane majority of people don't waste their time arguing on facebook so it's just them there.

Edited April 23 by Alexop

[Girzo]

48 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

That's true. But there are insane 1% of people on the either extremes. 

These loud 2% is enough to overthrow the sane majority. 2%, being a conservative estimate.

No way you are going to get printed on paper, men are more suited for engineering roles, and women are for nurses. That just will not happen. You can say that, but not on paper.

Your numbers are straight out of ass. As a sociologist I have to oppose such statements.

About your last statement. Clearly, you have not read much literature or even any literature on the topic and just share your imaginations about what is in the books and not what actually is in there. Start with some Judith Butler or something.

[Alexop]

45 minutes ago, Girzo said:

Start with some Judith Butler or something.

What do Judith Butler say about masculinity and femininity? Without the understanding of this dance of energies coupled with our biology and hormone dynamics is just a work not done. Maybe I picked to listen a bad book of hers but it was the most boring shit I ever listened to. 

 

Edited April 23 by Alexop

[Girzo]

@Alexop If you read her then you should be aware of the distinction between sex and gender. On average, being of certain sex gives you advanteges in certain career like engineering. No-one disputes it. The same goes for an acquired cultural gender.

"Men are more suited for engineering roles, and women are for nurses."

If you think that this exact sentence wouldn't be published in a book, that's only if it were read in strawmanning-manner as completely lacking nuance, thus factually wrong. Nuance being it's only true on average, there's many women who excel in engineering roles. Another nuance would be what Bobby thinks about proportions of this tendency, true proportions can be scientifically found out more or less. Another is the inclusion of factors why is it so, not only sex but also the whole fucking society. No wonder less women are crane operators when all the safety equipment, etc is desgined male-sized. The same goes for rifles in the military, etc. Nuance and context, then you can say it.

Edited April 23 by Girzo

[Yimpa]

I started feminizing HRT a week ago and I’d be happy to share the changes  and experiences I notice in the coming months and years 

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

That's true. But there are insane 1% of people on the either extremes. 

These loud 2% is enough to overthrow the sane majority. 2%, being a conservative estimate.

No way you are going to get printed on paper, men are more suited for engineering roles, and women are for nurses. That just will not happen. You can say that, but not on paper.

As I said from the start, it's a matter of political will. For sure such a class as I suggest would get politicized to hell by radicals from both sides today.

This is why we can't have nice things.

It's a shame because kids really need such a class. The politics on this issue is just noise.

Edited April 23 by Leo Gura