Israel / Palestine News Thread

[hundreth]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

Ben Gurion’s words:

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”
— David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

https://www.progressiveisrael.org/ben-gurions-notorious-quotes-their-polemical-uses-abuses/

From the primary founder of Israel itself, Israel’s version of George Washington. 

He also said:

Quote

“We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.”

“Palestine is not an empty country . . . on no account must we injure the rights of the inhabitants.”

“I am unwilling to forego even one percent of Zionism for 'peace'---yet I do not want Zionism to infringe upon even one percent of legitimate [Palestinian] Arab rights.”

I think he had some ideals but ultimately put his cause first. Given he was European during some of the worst atrocities and wars, I imagine he was under no illusions that the world is fair.

Unfortunate, but now we have to reckon with the current reality. 

[Raze]

16 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

 

Holocaust crocodile tears? Classic. 

I'll remember that one next time I walk into the museum.  I'm gonna cry me a river of Holocaust crocodile tears  😀

But no way on the 15k children - sorry..Claude said 200.

They’ve confirmed to have dropped more bombs on Gaza than what was dropped on Dresden, London, and Hamburg in ww2 combined, Gaza is smaller than Las Vegas and half the population of 2 million is children.

If anything it’s probably higher than 15K, those are just the confirmed.

this is one western doctors account of what he saw:

 

[Nivsch]

53 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Ben-Gurion terrorized, killed, and ethncially cleansed 500,000+ Palestinians. He personally ordered terrorism and extermination of Palestinian villages. And he was thrilled with the results.

He never had any intentions of respecting the UN partion plan or borders, calculating to take more and more Palestinian land.

That is who founded your country. A terrorist.

I accept what you say.

I am not so familiar with him in details, but fair enough to acknowledge the dark side of what has happaned and how he was directly involved in it.

However, not istead of what you say but in addition, this civil war was a result of almost 30 years of gradual escalation that began in the 1920's. 

When overlooking this gradual thousands-steps-length process of almost 30 years of escalation and focusing only on the end result, the chance to abuse the situation to the favor of one side or another is very high, even with the best of intentions of the source, let alone when the source favors one side to begin with.

Hence the distance between an only one sided ethnic cleansing and a war between two sides that fight each other (and right, do evil things too to one another) is as short as 1mm.

Any ducomentary that isn't extremely careful will very fast drift away to an alternative reality in which one of the sides is the evil one and the other is the innocent, without even realizing it has been drifted by a powerful subcurrent.

Edited October 3, 2024 by Nivsch

[Raze]

 

[royce]

[Inliytened1]

22 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I accept what you say.

I am not so familiar with him in details,

Well you shouldn't accept what he says.   Those numbers do not correlate with historical records and are disputable and subjective just as his calling the founder of your country a terrorist is.

 Yes over 700,000 were displaced but this was during the war in which allowed the state to be founded.   As for casualties that number does not align with historical figures.   I can tell you that to me this was a great man who founded Israel.

Edited October 3, 2024 by Inliytened1

[Nivsch]

10 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Well you shouldn't accept what he says.   Those numbers do not correlate with historical records and are disputable and subjective just as his calling the founder of your country a terrorist is.

 Yes over 700,000 were displaced but this was during the war in which allowed the state to be founded.   As for casualties that number does not align with historical figures.   I can tell you that to me this was a great man who founded Israel.

And? I explained the context after that you didn't read probably, and "dark side" doesnt mean he didn't have other sides to him.

Edited October 3, 2024 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Holocaust crocodile tears? Classic. 

I'll remember that one next time I walk into the museum.  I'm gonna cry me a river of Holocaust crocodile tears  😀

Norman Finkelstein lost most of his family in the Holocaust. Yet he has no problem condemning Zionism.

This is for you:

Quote

But no way on the 15k children - sorry..Claude said 200.

You have your facts wrong. That number of 200 is for children killed in the West Bank only. Not counting Gaza at all.

11,000-15,000 children were killed in Gaza in the last year. There is your holocaust.

Please look at the facts:

https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/more-women-and-children-killed-gaza-israeli-military-any-other-recent-conflict

https://abcnews.go.com/International/number-children-missing-separated-families-gaza-high-21000/story?id=111365036

https://www.unicefusa.org/stories/more-13000-children-reported-dead-gaza-famine-nears

Edited October 3, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Nemra]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Norman Finkelstein lost most of his family in the Holocaust. Yet he has no problem condemning Zionism.

This is for you:

Such a great response!

Edited October 3, 2024 by Nemra

[Leo Gura]

36 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

 I can tell you that to me this was a great man who founded Israel.

Ben-Gurion approved his troops to terrorize Palestinian villages by going into them after midnight, while everyone slept, placing dynamite into their houses, and blowing them up while Palestinian families slept inside. This was done across many villages.

Some villages that sat down a hillside had barrels of explosives rolled down the hill on them by Ben-Gurion's terror squads and their streets were lit on fire with trucks spewing napalm. When the Palestinian villagers ran out of their homes to put out the fire, they were mowed down indiscriminately with machines guns.

This is how Israel was founded.

Menachem Begin was also a terrorist. Without Menachem Begin's terrorism against the British there would be no Israel. Menachem Begin conducted one of the most successful terrorism campaigns in the history of terrorism, which forced the British to withdraw from Palestine, leaving it to the Jews.

These are all well-documented historical facts. You can read about them in history books.

Edited October 3, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Ben-Gurion approved his troops to terrorize Palestinian villages by going into them after midnight, while everyone slept, placing dynamite into their houses, and blowing them up while Palestinian families slept inside. This was done across many villages.

Some villages that sat down a hillside had barrels of explosives rolled down the hill on them by Ben-Gurion's terror squads and their streets with lit on fire with trucks spewing napalm. When the Palestinian villagers ran out of their homes to put out the fire, they were mowed down indiscriminately with machines guns.

This is how Israel was founded.

Menachem Begin was also a terrorist. Without Menachem Begin's terrorism against the British there would be no Israel. Menachem Begin conducted one of the most successful terrorism campaigns in the history of terrorism.

By this logic the American founding fathers were terrorists 

Edited October 3, 2024 by Raze

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Raze said:

By this logic the American founding fathers were terrorists 

Against the Native Americans, yes.

Although I never read the America founding fathers employing the tactics of Ben-Gurion's and Menachim Begin's squads.

The early Spanish were definitely terroristic towards the natives.

Edited October 3, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is how Israel was founded

It is a bad unjustifiable part of the war, but a part of it.

To generalize it to the way Israel has founded is like to saý that US is standing on the shoulders of slaves owners. Just out of context and proportions.

Edited October 3, 2024 by Nivsch

[Raze]

Interesting fact: Norman Finkelstein had a debate with Alan Dershowitz, who later would become famous for representing Jeffrey Epstein, and during it accused Dershowitz of plagiarism. As revenge, when Norman later tried to get tenure Dershowitz who was a Harvard professor pressured the college to reject it. Norman got blacklisted and hasn’t had a consistent teaching job since, even though the founder of holocaust studies who was a Republican, supported him.

[Leo Gura]

26 minutes ago, Raze said:

Dershowitz

A lying Trumpist scoundrel of the highest order.

Edited October 3, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Just out of context

The topic of ethnic cleansing is perfectly in context. This is the whole issue.

[Inliytened1]

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Norman Finkelstein lost most of his family in the Holocaust. Yet he has no problem condemning Zionism.

This is for you:

You seriously have your facts wrong. That number of 200 is for children killed in the West Bank only. Not counting Gaza at all.

11,000-15,000 children were killed in Gaza in the last year. There is your holocaust.

Please look at the facts:

https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/more-women-and-children-killed-gaza-israeli-military-any-other-recent-conflict

https://abcnews.go.com/International/number-children-missing-separated-families-gaza-high-21000/story?id=111365036

https://www.unicefusa.org/stories/more-13000-children-reported-dead-gaza-famine-nears

@Leo Gura @KarmadhiI  didn't realize the percentage of children was that high.   That is in fact really terrible.   

[Leo Gura]

Just now, Inliytened1 said:

@Leo Gura @KarmadhiI  didn't realize the percentage of children was that high.   That is in fact really terrible.   

Good. Keep an open mind and do more research. Your perspective will widen.

[Raze]

25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

A lying scoundrel of the highest order.

There was never any evidence he was a pedophile, the only person who accused him later dropped the accusation 

He did write a article suggesting the age of consent should be lowered but that doesn’t mean he personally would sleep with someone underage 

Edited October 3, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

The topic of ethnic cleansing is perfectly in context. This is the whole issue.

I wrote you what I think a page ago.