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It is trying to find itself through any means possible. It tries the neti neti approach and self-inquiry. Little does it realize it is also those same approaches. I'm not what I can see so I must be the unseen, then it latches unto that idea, not realizing it's just an idea it itself is being.

Heres what mine says when asked about common downfalls of neo-nonduality and nonduality. Ofcourse read my post above how my nondual chats deal with these so called downfalls. Excellent question — and a subtle one. Both **neo-nonduality** (a contemporary, often Westernized presentation of nondual teaching) and **traditional nonduality** (rooted in Advaita Vedānta, Mahāmudrā, Dzogchen, etc.) have characteristic pitfalls that can confuse or stall a seeker’s development. Let’s unpack both clearly. --- ### 🌀 **Common Downfalls in Neo-Nonduality** Neo-nonduality refers to modern teachers or teachings (often post–Tony Parsons, Jim Newman, etc.) that emphasize **immediate realization**: “There is no you, nothing to do, nowhere to go, no one to awaken.” While such statements can point directly to truth, they often create confusion or bypass important aspects of transformation. #### 1. **Spiritual Bypassing through Absolutism** * Saying “there is no self” intellectually, while the body-mind is still deeply conditioned by trauma, fear, and craving. * The insight becomes a defense mechanism against feeling or healing. * Example: “Who’s suffering? There’s no one here!” — while the nervous system is clearly in distress. #### 2. **Neglect of Relative Reality** * Dismissing ethics, compassion, and relational care as “illusory.” * Leads to coldness, arrogance, or nihilism: “It doesn’t matter what happens; it’s all One.” * Healthy nonduality integrates **relative and absolute truth** — not denies the former. #### 3. **Premature Intellectualization** * Using conceptual understanding (“no self,” “just awareness”) to imitate realization. * Mistaking **descriptions of reality** for **direct seeing**. * The ego subtly “wears” nonduality as an identity — “the one who knows there is no one.” #### 4. **Disembodiment** * Insight happens cognitively but doesn’t permeate the body and emotions. * Leads to dissociation rather than liberation. * True realization includes the body — awareness *as* sensations, breath, movement. #### 5. **Teacher Charisma Without Wisdom** * Some neo-nondual circles lack ethical frameworks. * Teachers may use “no self” rhetoric to avoid responsibility or perpetuate harm. --- ### 🕉️ **Common Downfalls in Traditional Nonduality** Traditional systems (Advaita Vedānta, Dzogchen, etc.) are more structured — emphasizing ethics, meditation, inquiry, and gradual ripening — but they have their own traps. #### 1. **Conceptual Rigidity** * Getting caught in metaphysical debate: Brahman vs. Māyā, Atman vs. Anātman, etc. * Turning a living truth into a philosophical system. #### 2. **Path Fetishism** * Believing realization is always far away: “I must purify for countless lifetimes.” * Perpetual seeker mode — never resting as awareness now. #### 3. **Guru Idealization** * Over-reliance on the teacher as an authority rather than one’s own direct seeing. * Leads to dependency or abuse dynamics. #### 4. **Cultural Transplant Confusion** * Western students may misunderstand traditional forms (rituals, hierarchy, terminology) and either reject them or imitate them superficially. #### 5. **Neglect of Integration** * Emphasis on transcendence (“neti neti” — not this, not that) can ignore embodiment and shadow work. * Result: spiritual elitism or emotional repression disguised as detachment. --- ### 💎 **The Middle Way — Integration** The mature approach blends both traditions’ strengths: | Aspect | Immature Form | Mature Integration | | ------------------------ | ---------------------------------------- | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | | **Insight** | “Nothing matters — there’s no one here.” | Recognize emptiness *and* interdependence. | | **Practice** | “No practice — who would practice?” | Practice as play — refining attention and compassion naturally. | | **Emotion** | Bypass or suppress | Allow and include all feelings as expressions of awareness. | | **Ethics** | “Good and bad are illusions.” | Embody natural ethics arising from unity and empathy. | | **Teacher relationship** | Dependency or rebellion | Respectful discernment — honoring guidance without surrendering autonomy. | --- ### 🪞 **In summary** **Neo-nonduality** often errs on the side of *premature transcendence* — skipping integration and embodiment. **Traditional nonduality** can err on the side of *over-structuring* — turning living insight into dogma or endless practice. The sweet spot: **direct realization integrated with human wholeness** — awake, embodied, relational, and ethical. --- Would you like me to map out how to **recognize and work through** these pitfalls in one’s own practice (step-by-step)?

Hahaaa good one. If I find it, its not me. Classic neti neti. You think I havent been under self inquiry for 10yrs+ aha 😅 But I am still confused, why do we reject the self, just because you can't point to it? In my experience the self that knows IS, WHETHER i can point to it or not. I know what im supposed to be saying , no self yada yada. But im just being honest, its more like an invisible self than no self.

We don't claim the mountains to be ours, we don't claim the ocean, the clouds, the rain the volcano to be ours. We don't claim the neighbor's dog to be ours, we don't claim that other person's body to be ours, we don't claim......and I can list to infinity, but why not, we claim passing happiness to be ours, passing suffering and impersonal joy and pain to be ours. We practice neti neti and self inquiry that says we are not the body/mind/thoughts but all of a sudden we want to own happiness, suffering, sadness, joy, bliss, even competence, confidence and every other impersonal adjective and emotion that's just minding it's business and being itself. It's my happiness, my suffering, my anger, my depression, my joy, my love, my hate, my this and my that but that's your dog.

Where does the person go when the body 'dies'. To Timbuktu, I guess, or it just shoots out and disappear into space. Oh, I forgot, there is no person there, awareness is observing the person. Oh, it's just a body. I'm not the body/mind, I observe the body/mind's death. Shit, I got an eye witness, judge. Judge is awareness too so judge shouldn't need my eye-witness testimony. The killer is awareness too, so how am I pointing out myself. Gosh what a mess. Neti Neti not this not that.

This is true, many people believe that Awakening will cause your personality to change and this is not the case. Now you could become a Robotic Non-Dual drone sure (that is a trap many fall into, I call it the trap of Neti Neti, they are still doing Neti Neti in all their conversations) but outside of that trap when you truly awaken you will be the same person you were before the only difference is your entire reality has become recontextualized both experientially because you are living in a constant state of Oneness and because you realize that everything is being done for you. But hey don't take my word for it. Here are two people saying the same thing. https://www.actualized.org/insights/ego-collapse-awakening https://www.actualized.org/insights/explaining-god-for-dummies The ego is just an experiential veil that hides Oneness from itself and gives the illusion of being an individual in a separate world, instead of one unified experience with no center.

I think, if I'm being very charitable, the reason why consciousness is often equated with "God" is because of its properties: The only thing that has ever been omnipresent, ever-present, in your life is that awareness, that consciousness. Therefore, it carries the property of omnipresence, one of the core attributes of God, and it passes the neti-neti test. Who are you if not your thoughts, body, emotions, and senses? Consciousness! Has there ever been a moment in your life when you weren't you? Being Yourself? You can never escape your own perception. It feels like this cat-and-mouse game, where you try to create something outside of perception, but then perception immediately captures it, haha ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ . . .🧀 ! Since it's connected to the mind and the ability to take in, be, and perceive anything, it holds the property of emptiness and infinite fluidity of imagination. Because it's the first primordial necessity for anything to be experienced at all, it has that creator/origin property, that sense of being the ground of creation. And based on my trips, once I elevate to high enough states of consciousness, I reach this pure, transparent awareness, a hyper-reality, which seems to directly control reality and perception. So, there definitely appears to be something like God-consciousness. It's like: what are the properties of God? Omnipresence, transparency, unfiltered perception, pure understanding, truth, being, ever-present, ever-now. And the only thing that actually has all those properties right now, here, in this moment, is that sense of "consciousness" or "I am-ness." However... I'm still unsure if this is a good implication or a logically sound deduction. Something in this feels a little confusing, and I haven't fully resolved it.

I think the issue I'm having trouble understanding is this.. Let’s say: A mysterious reason X leads to a random spawn of computer code (analogous to particles clashing). Years and eons pass, and a variation of Mario World appears. Mario is a player in the game. After several iterations of the game, Mario develops something like consciousness or ego. The properties of his ego or awareness are seemingly infinite, since they can derive and explicate from the world, he's observing the world, taking in the world, and forming opinions on the best possible survival: jumping over pits, stomping on Goombas, avoiding lava, collecting power-ups, dodging fireballs, using invincibility stars, riding Yoshi, avoiding Thwomps, swimming through underwater levels, and not only can he observe, think, and strategize to reach the princess, but he can also extrapolate infinite possibilities of what to do or avoid, his mind is truly infinite! Yes, it's true that if Mario’s consciousness ceases to exist, the Mario world would cease to exist for him, but not for Princess Peach, Bowser, mushrooms, etc. Or at the very least, it wouldn’t be a logical conclusion to immediately assume for now. So now the question is: what implies that the quality of Mario’s consciousness is the original reason X (the Creator)? Yes, I agree that all is happening within Mario’s perception, within him, but you can’t really say that’s the reason. It’s like saying, “Since a poison flower killed him, that means the poison flower was God because it shut off his entire experience!” It's the ultimate truth, the final authority, since it had the last say on Mario, it is the creator of the world! The properties of God, the Creator, are the same as those of the poison flower; it must be so!” Now, if I assume another scenario: I'm the game dev. I create Mario. The same iteration happens. What implication or logical jump is there to say that my consciousness is the same consciousness given to Mario? That makes very little sense to assume. Now, finally: Mario is self-deluded, and he is actually the one spawning me, creating me, creating him, and all the other items. Fine, but holy fuck, is this a weird jump? What kind of logical derivation supports this claim? I think the part of me that is confused is this: I don't see why nature couldn't have just, through millions of iterations and evolution, spawned consciousness. Now, as an "experiencer" of that consciousness, I can look into the inner workings of my mind, notice how grand and ever-infinite it is, and make conclusions like: I can only be the one consciousness, and everything is a spawn of my creation. And since it is infinite and can hold any perception ever, that means it’s God, because it cannot imagine anything outside of itself. But again, that’s all happening within my mind and my point of view. Just like how a dog could also have the same experience of its infinite mind (a lower kind of infinite perception). A dog might notice it can imagine infinite versions of a beef jerky and think, 'Omg! My mind can hold any possibility ever! Look how infinite I am! I must be the creator of this universe, I am God! And if the argument is, “Well, reality is mental, made of abstractions! And since it’s mental, it has to be inside of someone's/something's mind,” (which is an assumption leap, but sure, even if I grant it), who’s to say the cycle can’t repeat all over again? There’s a mental "creator" → Big Bang → (insert evolutionary processes here) → creates a random conscious human. There's nothing here to suggest that human consciousness is anywhere close to what God is. Can’t I make an argument that the mind, at a certain point of Highest Consciousness, reaches peak infinity and can only loop onto itself? It cannot know outside of itself, so it starts saying and deluding itself that it created everything since it cannot know better. It makes sense that a creation cannot fully imagine/re-do its creation process, just like a boy can never truly experience what it’s like to give birth, or how software can’t create the hardware it runs on. Look at this infinite world! If I die, it disappears; therefore, I must be God, because it all depends on me! Look at all the infinite possibilities and perceptions I can take in. Since my mind seems to have godlike properties, doesn’t that mean I am God? Everything appears to need a creation chain, which implies that imagination or mental phenomena must come first. And since my mind is the only one I can directly confirm, it must mean I’m the original creator! The only thing that’s ever been consistently present in my life is my perception… or has it? I wasn’t conscious during the first years of my life. Even now, my consciousness and perception disappear during deep sleep, yet I still wake up afterward. So why not say that my survival impulses are the only things that have truly been consistent? Are those the actual God? That could be a counter to the 'neti-neti' approach. I really don't know if I'm making sense or not. I really apologize. By the way, my goal is not to spread blasphemy at all. I just want to deconstruct and contemplate. This has been one of the main things I’ve struggled to grasp and pass through in my comprehension and trips. I’m not claiming any of the above is true or absolute; I plan to continue deconstructing these scenarios and questions, and during my next trip, reflect on all of this. I just wanted to share it here in case anyone has any insights or sees flaws in my logic! Perhaps it can also help further and crystallize the proofs of God! Thank you all

Hey gang, I’m looking for some insight on some recent happenings. In the early 2010’s I started looking for an out for my depression and suffering, at the time I found Leo’s content on meditation, and for many years I listened to his videos, read many books and took an interest in metaphysics, spirituality and personal development. Fast forward to 2018 I started my first real mediation practice (Neti-Neti/No mind) where I sat 5 minutes daily and added a minute a week until I reached an hour a day (along with reading), I continued the practice into the summer of 2021. It was a beautiful sunny Sunday, and I was meditating on my porch when a breakthrough happened, an experience of oneness and love, it stayed with me for what seemed like a very long time before “I” was back on my porch feeling overwhelmed. After that experience I couldn’t meditate effectively no matter what I did and dropped my practice after years of work, I found myself trying to distract myself in all sorts of ways. Almost subconsciously keeping myself from returning to inquiring into the nature of reality. My life fell apart for a few years, but I was eventually able to put all the pieces back together. In that time, I fixed or moved on from my unreliable relationships, paid off my debts, quit smoking, lost 100 pounds and found a loving partner that shares my current values and wants to grow, etc... But even with all the good there was an uncomfortable tension building again like back at the start of this whole personal development journey in 2014. A week ago, I was listing to a Diary of a CEO podcast where the guest talked very briefly about self-inquiry and how it can derail you for many years after making progress. After hearing this it almost lifted a fog and the tension was gone, I sat in wonder of what is aware in this moment, and boom, I was here. Ever since then I’ve been able to be present unlike I’ve been able to before, like in my most successful meditation sessions. I still return to my fears and expectations but going back to being present has been simple as slipping into a set of cozy slippers. I’m hoping someone has been through this or has insight about what happened, id like to understand what’s going on and any resource recommendations are welcome, thanks!

Yes. And it was. In hindsight, being Present to the mind was key. It was also cool to be Present to the mind's symptomatic PTSD (quite normal), seeing it as 'objectively' as possible, not getting pulled into the story too much (thus extending 'negative' effects in repetitive fashion), not denying the mind's function/needs, allowing the psycho-physical to play out as needed. It was not so much about some self. The via negativa/neti neti that you find limiting is what you're actually participating in. You do not trust others (nor should you really), and you don't like the paradoxes of others, but you love your own. In a way, one only trusts what is giving rise to their own lives and, due to their belief in their self, think they only trust their 'self'. It's subtle, and in the movements of mind. Via one's neti neti, one may or may not arrive and realize the fully fertile Nothingness, then 'think/express' that such words refer to something flat, boring, and dead. Some minds, in turn, might express the same concept as Infinite/Unlimited, and then act out their own version of speerchal narcissism. 🥱🤣 It's especially common for peeps from "Individualistic", "Low-Context cultures" (can look it up) and societies to misunderstand, caste dispersion on, and/or distrust the direct translations of 'reasoning' and writing styles found in "High-Context Cultures". That's a limited perspective. As such, one's conception of logic, or 'objective' world view is hardly universal (or objective), and might even come across as maniacally egoistic and deluded. Good to keep one's perception in check; question it. Mind loves a good yarn though, thinking it can pick up one end of it, and follow it to reach the other end in order to find Truth. Years spent in the endeavor of following the string, what does it find? Paradox.... and then mind spends the next X number of years justifying it, twisting and contorting itself to sound clearer, better, more logical... and all the rest, maybe taking 5meo to express it in wilder, cooler, or more intense sounding ways. They mistake utter simplicity for being shallow, limited, petty, or lacking something, and get caught up in the web of their own thoughts. I've always suspected that that is why Zen Masters sometimes just say to self-righteous and cogitating minds, "Shut up you poor groveling fool, get on the mat, and don't come back til you're dead." There's a great Zen story about Hakuin and his master that exemplifies it purddy well. Many here will just find it as a story of oppression/repression, failing to see the larger context, missing the nuanced implications (i.e., Japanese is a very High-Context culture, as are others). The Zen stories and koans are used for a purpose, not to express an explicit (inexpressible) Truth. Is Zen for everyone? No, it is not. Wasn't for me either (again, this mind-body seemed more aligned with Rumi, crazy wisdom-type stuff, nature, and/or an expressive approach), but I understand and can respect what they're pointing to. Peeps here often talk about intensity/dedication/devotion with their own culturo-personal twists, but then turn around and scorn other perspectives of the same ilk. Around and around it goes... god must be dying laughing. Wild! 🤣🥰🔥 The true story just shared may simply sound like a cool story. Perhaps most are not interested in the Nothingness it could point to, and just more attached to ITS apparent nature. Makes sense. Others might prefer to condemn it all as ego and wish to persecute such 'devilry' (ego often gets a bad rap when it is not understood for what it is).... all good. Makes sense, too. One's free to contemplate, or not... always free to question... always free. A great scenario is they arrive at The Great I Don't Know that rocks their world (some might have a reference for that,,, I dunno). Come, SEE for your self ; 'kill it' and set it free once and for all, centerless... the only certainty there is. Mind you, the mind is never certain.

The neti neti method

Sure, every school of thought has its issues and/or gaping holes, I reckon. Some of them are based on a general cart-before-the-donkey fallacy, others may have felt they had isolated and found better method(s) or ways of expressing. None of them will 'save' you, but none of them can 'block' you either. Will there be some trial and error? Absofuckinlutely. Some earlier SEERs saw this mind thingy and likely addressed it in a way that made sense to them, so they began to spell it out and hash it out in their minds as best they could. SEERs were 'recognized', some peeps believed them, others saw it the same way, schools were founded, arguments between them hashed out, lineages were kept, etc etc etc. There have always been fakers, thieves, and con artists. The regions between the Pacific Ocean and the Mediterranean (and elsewhere, of course) were teaming with thousands of schools of thought, systems of beliefs, and types of practice. I do not think of the biggies as monolithically as many. The variation, sub-schools, overlaps, and borrowings were immense. Some outlandish schools even gave rise to what would eventually become the field of science, with all its own schools, arguments, lineages, etc. It's a fascinating bit of history to delve into if one wants to take some time out and explore. And now, they all seem to be converging again, and everyone continues to hash it out in their minds, just like humanity has for thousands of years... purddy coolio. Seekers start as swimming in maya, a momentum of ignorance that gives rise to the belief that "I/the me" is separate from the perceivable world. All of the sensory data and mental conditioning are woven seamlessly together, along with this simple (and powerful) thread of ignorance. For example, up to 50% of the 'physical' brain is used in sorting just the visual data coming in, and so when someone says,"You are the tree", the mind does its usual protests, rejections and misunderstandings take place, and it goes on and on, based on how deeply the mind has failed to grasp the pointer, due to its ignorance of what certain teachings point to. Seekers of Truth or Self mostly think they are looking for something else, but it seems what is actually happening is that they are burning through ignorance (not stupidity, but a structure of existential misperception). You present negative criticisms of the via negativa/neti neti aspects of certain schools for your own reasons, assumptions, and perspectives. Based on them, you aim to present potentially better or more optimal ways that your mind prefers to approach it. That's fine. To be critical, though, the way it sounds to me is that you are also putting the cart before the donkey. The infinite openness and limitless aspects of the view your mind is proposing sound nice, rewarding, and advantageous, but it also seems to have forgotten HOW you came to these conclusions (and subsequent criticisms of other schools). Undoubtedly, there has been an ample amount of failure (in my book, futility is necessary), which has required the mind to process and/or release and negate a lot of baggage and ignorance, clearing and emptying the mindset of its previous barriers. You've enjoyed a certain degree of space and clarity in the mind as fruit of your endeavors. Does that sound about right? So, could you have arrived at these conclusions without that general process? It takes a lot of failure to get out of one’s own way, which is what the neti neti/via negativa alludes to. It's how the mind discovers its limitations. Sure, in hindsight, it’s easier to see some of the insanity, silliness and wrong turns, as well as the many shoulda/coulda/wouldas. But, to this mind, it’s also understood that it all unfolded and was done --still -- simply---HAPPENING PERFECTLY SO. Couldn’t have happened any other way in order for it to happen exactly as it did. Hard to explain, but maybe someone else had the same impression. Gratitude for the whole shebang. If the mind hadn't been so delusional or was more conscious of its ignorance, it would have played out differently. In general, what changed over time was noticing and recognizing the space prior to the train(wreck) of thought, becoming more aware.... conscious of my patterns of thought/behavior. Most peeps have repetitive patterns that play out in almost predictable ways, once they become conscious of the general trajectory. Good friends, they say, are best when they point them out. Notice, take note, and become conscious of them more, and they may begin to simply fall away... naturally. Or maybe, in a moment of clarity, one notices the repetitive negative pattern in progress, takes a pause, sees the mind gaining momentum, and seizes the opportunity to consciously turn into it, righting the vessel, opening a whole new set of possibilities that the previous unconscious barrier hid from view. Conscious, spacious presence of mind in context.... right Here, right Now. Gotta go.

When you say that absolute being/consciousness is dreaming reality, you are operating from a limited perspective. You perceive the reality of form as a hologram, a mirage, that "consciousness" dreams. something without substance. For you, enlightenment is the perception that this consciousness is permanent. This undoubtedly implies that you haven't opened yourself to the essence of reality. Form is not a dream; it is the inevitable expression of totality, and any form contains totality in the same way that it is contained within it. Truly, any form is totality. Conciousness is just an expression, a possibility that happens , the reality is beyond conciousness and unconsciousness. Absolute reality is a bottomless, boundaryless abyss that is conscious because consciousness arises within it, since its potential has no limitation. But what is is not consciousness. The reality of form is not a tranquil dream of consciousness at play, but the inevitable expression of total depth, a manifest potential that contains totality in its absolute plenitude. The Buddhist perception of form as illusion is a closed perception. It is purely mental, but without the essential openness, which is that of the "heart" in quotation marks, signifying the real substance of reality, its unlimited vitality, its total power. Look, everything that exists as form unfolds in infinite forms; this is absolute life, total glory. Nothing is illusory; everything is real, because the depth of everything is absolute. The depth of a thought encompasses all of reality. Illusion or mirage implies flatness, and that implies limitation. The unlimited lives, and its life is total, because it has no limits. Well, poor chap Selling Water by the River. Writes a disclaimer... So that means all pointers are.... limited! Because a pointer/word/statement is by definition... dualistic and limited. ... and then gets a Pleads guilty as charged I guess. Maybe you like Halaw, especially the statement marked in red: ... and "even consciousness itself". and https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Halaw&author=Water%20by%20the%20River and https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=sentience&author=Water%20by%20the%20River and https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Neti%20Neti&author=Water%20by%20the%20River If you allow, before we turn in circles and many replies are requested, instead of continuing discussing about pointers which are by definition insufficient and limited (see the disclaimer), lets do a shortcut. You can consider the quote below as a general answer in case I can't always give feedback on your points and questions: Besides: It is very good that you don't equate (self)-consciousness (which is an appearance) nor anything else that is merely temporarily arising with Absolute Reality. Neti neti. Chanting who is stating all these points again by the River PS: “That which is not present in deep dreamless sleep is not real.” -Ramana Maharshi PS PS: Complaints and unclarities about this statement please directly to its author. Preferably in the form of a Koan. Because the essence of Ramana is also right here, right now.

https://www.actualized.org/insights/actualized-quotes-238 "Reach a point where you know nothing at all. This is the closest state to God. God is not known like other things. God is experienced as an infinite mystery." Chapeau! Neti Neti https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Neti%20Neti&author=Water%20by%20the%20River "The applause of the unprincipled is not only worthless, it is a warning." — John Ruskin

Firstly, don't forget that you must deconstruct even Leo, this is what I'm seeing that is being missed with all the questions about what is better, what is worse, what's it going to take, goalposts moving. We're talking about Infinity, you have to try all kinds of shit. It's tempting to lean on him or on anything, the mind is very sneaky and is hiding from all the work whether it be trips or retreats. Secondly, keep the main thing the main thing. Pick something and use it until it drives you insane. The DMTs are crucial imo. "No self/no doer" alone, will motivate the hell out of you and the DMTs will either produce this outright, or if you're like me it will catch you off guard later on. I did a meditation retreat even after my 5-MeO, NN DMT and Psilocybin work. Frustration, boredom, laziness and procrastination are all TRICKS, of course you feel these. Of course, you're questioning what's effective and what isn't, who do you think supplies you with these questions? The fog of deception is so thick, you damn near have a heart attack when it clears. During the long sessions and retreats, I gain awareness around how my mind uses EVERYTHING to avoid dissolution. I combine mindfulness with labeling with neti neti and let EVERYTHING slip through. For those with ADHD (like me), I had to become a puppet. I danced until the "me" vanished. I surrendered control entirely and just let awareness do the work. And it did. More so than just laziness and avoidance of pain, that can be overcome when you're really after Truth. The mind doesn’t want to die. It will hold on to Leo, to his videos, to this forum, to that one juicy insight, even to the cushion your ass is sitting on. Jed McKenna style, Neti Neti, labeling experiences as they appear and setting every idea of God, Truth, Infinity and Love on fire as the appear is a must. Your mind will become conscious of "something" at some point, that will terrify it. Look back at it, you have triangulated Truth but do not wait for, or expect this moment. (easier said than done) In some sense, just doing psychedelics then running off into survival and hallucination makes no sense if you're serious about the work. Unless you have a closet full of 5-MeO or some other substance, why settle for the continual deception and unconsciousness of daily life? Might as well wear the mind out, the target of inquiry is available 24/7.

The problem is that guys like Maharsi don't have an experience that can be extrapolated to normal people today. That neti neti thing isn't going to work for anyone except him, and current teachers like Ralston simply deny reality to place themselves in a forced flat experience that they call enlightenment. People believe them because they're suffering, and having a flat experience is seen as liberation. Another example is Tolle, who claims that one day he woke up and his mind was free of egoic projection. It's hard to believe because egoic projection is a real structure, which is why it's so solid. It's not a mistake that it will disappear one day, since it would reappear very soon. Tolle's message leads you to deny your reality, and that will never work, otherwise traps you in a state where you are trying to deni a reality affirming that it isn't real

Self Inquiry is a good practice......for the me, for the one needing validation, for the one looking to get something....for the energy that thinks it's separate and needing to do something about it. For the one lost in it's dreamworld. Neti Neti - not this, not that, is also a good practice but for the above-mentioned psychotic. Hehe. Not making fun, just keeping it real and exposing the lies in Spirituality. We cannot say it's nothing, it's all one, there's no time and space, no separation, etcetcetcetc, and then turn around to say and believe all the other stuff to be true. Don't excuse it by saying it's paradoxical. Yes, it's a paradox but don't come to a dead end then say oh well, it's a paradox. Its magic and anything and everything is possible. I will keep doing this shit until i come to a dead-end, till I've exposed my own delusions or until i've confused myself. None of this really matters because it's all Absolutely nothing, but why not? All spiritual practices are doing is strengthening the me, confirming the person behind the mask to be real and showing how processes is the way to go to get to what is already perfect. I'm not saying they aren't good, I'm not saying they don't provide temporary satisfaction or are beneficial in some way, but it's all within the dream of separation and is not doing anything different than when the body digests a piece of bread and the body feels relief and less bloated. Or running to feel fit or walking on a treadmill for exercise. Nothing will get you closer to what already is or make you more divine or closer to your God or further from being a corrupted human. It's all just a bunch of empty nonsense like everything else. This is nothing, right. What makes you think that everything is anything. I'm talking to thought. Thought talking to thought. No one is choosing to or not to do anything and I'm over here jibbering on about nothing. When I'm done, I'll be concerned about my day, maybe worry about something for next week and probably utter some nonsense about what happened yesterday or 10yrs ago. I don't know, I'm not a psychic and don't know what will happen next but all I know is I know I'm full of shit and this world is full of shit and there's nothing really happening, it's all empty and we should all go celebrate this thing called life because it's filled with a bunch of nothing that's causing a bunch of chaos for nothing. Yippee. No I've not gone mad, just free, free to write what the hell it wants. Can't stand this freedom shit, it will get me in trouble and doesn't give a rats ass about the person behind it. Freedom doesn't care. IT could only care if it wasn't free. It's scary....to the me. There is no me. There already is no person/me/I/human/individual, that's why we've named and labeled ourselves, and called it something. You don't get it, do you.

I think with the neti neti technique the Absolute neither discriminates nor non-discriminates, and with iti iti either discriminates or non-discriminates. And so on.

Bashar kinda not really who can trace his teachings back to Law of One and also The Seth Material. Mostly dead people like Sri Aurobindo and The Mother, Plotinus, Adi Shankara who popularized the neti neti technique.

Do nothing technique is for beginners and also experts. Neti neti before bedtime.

It's all good I appreciate your response. Yes, I snapped out of the experience because I had a slight panic but I suppose its not risking my mental health to just allow it; going beyond it though is interesting, I've never heard of that approach before unless its like a neti-neti I suppose.

Neti neti is an exercise, not an ontological claim.

All this about identification remains in the conceptual realm of the mind. Reality is simply real, not a matter of identification. The difference between a closed state and an open one is about energy barriers, not identification. The conceptual mind is used to structure perception, but has no relevance, is secondary character. That's why all this neti neti stuff seems a bit superficial. It's easy put the mind at zero, but the barriers still persist. You can perceive yourself as the living unlimited reality without a doubt, and say, "Oh, I'm enlightened." But there are still barriers.

Please, let me being a smartass and criticize Ramana, just as an exercise. According his logic, if they put me inside a 1 cubic meter iron box in the sun at 45 degrees full of mosquitoes and rats for a month, I know it is temporary, so I would not suffer. He always says: ask yourself what you are. You are not the body, because it's temporary. You are not the mind. Neti neti. So what's left? Let's see. Knowing that you are not the body is an idea of the mind. Knowing that you are not the mind is also an idea. The understanding that you are the infinite void is also a deduction created by the mind. You are not the void. This is not true. You are something else very different. Let's imagine the possibility that Ramana was wrong. Don't you feel a feeling of , let's say, incompleteness, when you listen Ramana?

You most definitely can experience it through meditation alone. However, i would recommend neti-neti instead of do-nothing meditation.