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Infinite Consciousness/Reality (I don't use God though technically correct because it creates more misunderstandings in this context than it solves. Like blowing up the Ego to God-sized dimensions, which the exactly opposite route than transcending the separate self/Ego) is awake throughout. IT is aware, and is what you really are. "It" (True You) is nothing specific (despite containg/being everything), but empty Awareness. Totally empty/nothing, but aware, and containing all form. But arising in it is what you think yourself to be right now (I-thoughts and I-feelings), that you don't see/view fast enough to transcend. You see "through" them, like coloured lenses. These lenses of perceptions (I-thoughts and I-feelings, separate-self arisings, making you feel and think you are a body or mind WITHIN Reality, but somehow separate from the boundless Reality) are what cloud your understanding of the Nature of Infinite Consciousness/Reality. When you learn to view (and cut) these arisings fast enough (long training process normally), awakened or nondual states can appear. Then the locatedness of "you" drops, making You the whole field. And other effects (infinite, eternal/always here, empty/impersonal). The three points above are at least in my perspective more useful to describe the process (than asking what wakes up, God or Ego), because: God or Infinite Consciousness doesn't awake. It is always awake/aware, can't be different. The Ego doesn't really exist (EXist=stand out from Raelity). So it can't wake up. It the sum/Gestalt of the appearance of I-thoughts, I-feelings that arise in True You. Once your mindstream/perspective awakenes, these arisings are no longer believed and (if wanted) totally cut off. Your Ego/character becomes literally something like moskito buzzing around in you. And if the character becomes annoying/suffering, you can "chase" it away like an annoying insect. The volume/believeability of its voice goes to "lower than 5%" of what is was before. That is just a pointer. It can only be really understood what it happens. The tools you use to imagine that state (necessarily including I-thoughts) are those that prevent the awakend state in which you could understand it. So the path is Meditation, Trekchö/Cut-Off every thought, Neti Neti, get empty, change to awakened states. And let these states refine and empty your Identity towards Truth. Because what clouds your mindstream, what you think you are, the I-feelings and I-thoughts, are not what you really are. You are much more. But you can only authentically say that when you are in awakened states. Before having stabilized these nondual states, thinking you are everything is just wishful thinking. It doesn't end suffering. Because it is not a change of thinking/concepts. It is not deciding or believing to no longer belief concepts (That "stripping" would be more concepts). it is learning to cut any arising concept/belief/I-thought/I-feeling FAST enough so that your state changes to awakened and nondual states. Thinking to want to no longer belief or stripping of beliefs/ideologies is itself a thought process, not the cutting of all thought arisings including that one. These are very specific states that have counterparts in the bodily energies for example. Enlightenment is a state shift towards nondual, boundless, and empty/impersonal (at least if there is intention for cutting the mindstream if wanted, for example for getting the bliss of the primordial Consciousness). At other times, the character can do its thing. But the body-mind has become an object doing its thing within YOU, Reality itself. (1) If it wouldn't remove suffering, what should make you stay in these enlightened states? You would continue grasping and searching for evermore experiences, like every unenlighened being. (2) Also, you will know the nature of Absolute Reality beyond any doubt. That includes what You are, what Reality is, what every arising/form/phemenon is in its essence, and that you are immortal. And nothing else can be anything different than THAT. Since anything there could be, in any dimension or realm, would just be more "form" or content arisings within Infinite Consciousness. But what would (2) be worth if you still suffer? You would search and grasp for some other experiences... Which obviously the enlightened ones stopped doing. All of them, at all times. They didn't grasp for experiences, and didn't suffer when they didn't get certain experiences. They for sure had preferences, could feel pain, but they didn't grasp or "psychologically-suffering-wise" resist what is. She who is centered in the Tao can go where she wishes, without danger. She perceives the universal harmony, even amid great pain, because she has found peace in her heart. - Tao Te Ching Since every separate being (or better: perspective) is at its essence Infinite Consciousness/Reality itself, every mindstream will end up enlightened. The game is to cast the formless out into form, explore the infinities of infinities that can be manifested (God will never run out of these), and come back home. It is the nature of Reality. It is apparently what Reality does. Love is what throws it all out, and pulls it all back, and its also the essence of every form. That btw. is not fancy mental musings, but actual Reality, potentially directly experienceable by every(!) being in certain awakened states. Water by the River PS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrival_(film) "During the evacuation, Donnelly expresses his love for Banks. They talk about life choices and whether he would change them if he could see the future. Banks knows that she will agree to have a child with him despite knowing their fate: that Hannah will die from an incurable disease and Donnelly will leave them both after she reveals that she knew this."

No-self is only arriving at the gate, by realizing what you are not. You are not a person, thoughts, emotions, or experiences. Neti neti will help you realize this. Awakening is direct realization of the absolute, which is who you actually are. Enlightenment is the integration of this realization. Surrender means letting go of all imaginary identifications, not conceptually, but directly. You live anchored in awareness, and realize that it is the only reality. Everything else that you encounter is the dream, and while you can enjoy phenomena, you don't attach yourself to them. I've never stated, in any thread, that I am enlightened. I've said many times that there are infinite degrees of enlightenment, and that it is a continual process of sinking into the absolute and dissolving attachments. It is far more difficult than most people imagine, and it will test your sincerity to the dregs. You have no idea yet what ego death is.

there are two dual things space and shape, awareness and thought, selflessness and self in all 3 cases you are the former for example if you think something, what happened is a thought arose by its own volition, you can be aware of that and that is you selfless is to bring your being to zero to nothing to emptiness ... how? meditation, neti neti, self enquiry, contemplation, prayer ...

It's true that the mind has a deeply programmed survival instinct. Despite that, it is a supercomputer with capacity beyond what most people realize. Chat GPT 4.0, even the paid version, doesn't come close. Every decision the mind makes is the result of a satisficing formula that it runs, with each variable weighted based on its current evaluation of reality. This weighting is the result of biological and social conditioning, which continuously evolves. For many, the formula is built entirely on external variables. What will pursuing x, y, and z do to contribute to my survival and well-being? Awakening becomes possible when the mind realizes that every formula it has used to this point has actually been detrimental, rather than fulfilling. It becomes necessary to modify the formula, in order to free itself from the suffering state. The absolute can't use the mind to directly realize itself, but it can leverage the remarkable subtractive capacity of the mind to realize what it is not. This begins the process of elimination. I am not the body. I am not thoughts. I am not feelings. I am not perceptions, sensations, or experiences. I am not memories or anticipations. I am not desires or fears. The neti neti journey applies the remarkable power of the mind to guide the absolute to the inner gate of itself. It is as far as the mind can go, but still, what a triumph. Here, in the shadow of the gateless gate, spiritual practice helps to sink awareness into the ocean of its essence. Meditation, contemplation, and inner inquiry gradually distance awareness from the external, and draw awareness deeper into itself. Identification with the external is surrendered as identification with the internal is increased. Often this is a long and painful process, of relinquishing cherished beliefs and fears. Awareness spirals itself deeper, into the dark night of the soul, which is terrifying to the remnant of the self, but is necessary to create the cataclysmic will to finally let go. It only becomes possible when it is realized that letting go will actually set you free. Even then, surrender alone is insufficient to propel awareness through the inner gate. There is still too much conditioning, a lifetime of attachments which block the spiritual passage, and cannot be dissolved by will alone. It is only by the light of absolute grace, on the other side of the gate, that these attachments gradually dissolve, until the sliver expression of the absolute is finally refined enough to fit through the gate to itself. This reunion is entirely lifechanging. The dream continues, but awareness is no longer at the mercy of experience. It clearly sees that everything arising and dissolving is its own essence, in this penultimate adventure within its imagination. It's not over yet, not until love and light have poured through the portal of this perspective, cascading through its cosmos, helping the absolute continue awakening to itself.

So similar to the process of neti neti where every aspect of your ego gets short circuited until you become "nothingness". Hmm interesting. I hoped someone here maybe has some direct experience with this kind of technique.

@Jannes The spiritual journey has two phases, the negative withdrawal from illusion, followed by the positive embrace of truth. The path to truth begins with the absolute riding the wave of the human mind along the neti neti current, until it breaks upon the other shore. Realizing what it is not is as far as the human mind can take the absolute. It is the surrendering phase of the spiritual journey. Once it has released the illusion of what it is not, the absolute steps onto the other shore, and directly realizes its true nature. It is free to continue exploring the dream, grounded in the absolute reality of itself.

True. I think you would like the Mahamudra-system a lot. Yoga of One Taste is the Neti Neti path to its end, Yoga of Nonmeditation throws away each and any effort and reamaining separte-self doing anything: One just rests in nondual state that one knows very well then, and waits for the grace of crossing over. Gateless Gate. "One can do NOTHING here to cross over to Full Enlightenment/Basis Enlightenment. Because that would be an act of a separate self. An effort. A movement of a separate self WANTING something, manipulating the mindstream, grasping for the understanding, doing something.... One can only automize the meditation/mindfullness, staying fully present, letting the Awakened Impersonal Awareness flow by itself, let IT do the meditation itself, get out of the way... Bringing out the full force of this Utterly Impersonal Awakened Awareness. Ones True Identity. And that is the last contra-intuitive trap: ONE CAN'T FORCE IT ("artifical activity"). Because forcing it would be a separate self arising doing it. One can try to force it (for example Koan-style), but then the Crossing Over normally happens in a moment of grace, of relaxation, when artificial activity is not present." Selling Water by the River

Yes i understand that, but don't you think that this is still somehow limited? No. Go see for yourself. It is the only and final Realization that comes with "no more n+1 Awakenings". That is where the exquisite peace lies. Any other further Awakening after the Full Realisation of what you really are can only be insight into more form/manifestation. One can theoretically (and practically) become aware of all of Indras Infinite Net in all its endless possible dimensions. Go exploring it. ALL OF IT. How its imagined/created, up to Buddhafield-Entities creating and managing whole Universes. There are more than enough Trip Reports about that, often centuries old, but also contemporary. Let me know if you want links. Nothing I have seen on this site here I have not found in essence somewhere else also when it comes to the topics above. Hard to find, but can be found. And that (above) still wouldn't be the Abyss of Fully Empty Infinite Boundless Impersonal Consciousness, the one Infinite Reality without a second. YOU. The real YOU, not the Illusion of what you mistake yourself to be right now. It would be just more form. More form Of God fooling itself in n+1 ways. But still only more form, or the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness. Not the unmanifested empty essence of Infinite Consciousness. (Of course both are nondual, but one "side" is eternal and timeless, and the show passes and ends in time). So: If one knows who one is, one knows who one is. And it is then known that all possible forms/arisings can only be dreams, a magic show, a beautiful (or not so beautiful) illusion, a play. All of it, n+1. That final Realization is where all pointers end, duality collapses IN YOU, and nothing can be prooven by just using language. Only YOU can REALIZE it by BEING IT. Water by the River And if you want to see an answer on that question as authentic reaction on video, below it is. But find out for yourself. Nobody can proove you that. Only you can realize it by BEING it. Choose who you believe, and listen deeply into your heart while doing so. In your case, the answer won't take long. Consider it takes Neti Neti to the final end, and ask yourself who you assume could have done that. And who hasn't done that. Pointer here: Daily life and conduct. At the end, Realization finds itself in conduct. If not, probably a not a too blissfull "Realization". And then place your bet, and walk the path (and your path) to its very end. PS: And if you are so inclined, go hunt the Aliens AFTER knowing who YOU really are. If you are so inclined...

Well said. The unveiled absolute is neither aware nor unaware of itself. It is awareness. Not unaware awareness, but unconditional awareness. Within the dream, it can forget or realize itself, but the appearance of unconsciousness and enlightenment is only the seemingness of transient relative states. Neti neti helps the absolute unwind its false identification with the mind, but only brings it to the gate. It realizes what it is not, but not yet what it is. To pass through the gate requires absolute grace, which reunifies that which was never actually separate.

Awareness is only aware OF itself within its dualistic dream, which is existence. It's a subtle but significant point: the absolute is inherently and essentially awareness, beyond existence. To realize awareness requires the illusion of boundaries, but beyond boundaries, awareness is without requiring the appearances of forgetting and realization. Yes. "It" never (could) loose its eternal nature of Awareness. As the only Infinite Aware Reality without a second. If one fully understands what you just wrote... that alone is enough. Beautifully written. And that Awareness can be unaware of itself prooves its fully Empty Impersonal Nature. That is the point I want to bring across, above all else. Neti Neti to the final end, where concepts have long stopped working. Never stop early while the separate-self-gestalt-arisings are not fully transcended. And having walked the path of Neti Neti to its end: Infinite and Everything/Nondual. The pointer (fully empty impersonal nature, or Neti Neti) is the ticket for the way back home, And "can be unaware of itself" prooves this pointer. If IT would be anything other than empty/no thing/infinite, IT could look over its shoulder to see itself. IT can't. When IT does (or better tries), looking deeply into oneself in meditation, it/one has an experience of Emptiness/Nothingness. quod erat demonstrandum Water by the River

This philosophical position does not suggest anything about how many "parallel" POVs there are - it is not about that. It merely states that there is no "objective reality" beyond your "subjective experienced phenomena", i.e. qualia are the bedrock reality. Might be a single solipsistic POV, might be many parallel POV bubbles made of qualia. Is water wet? No, really - is it? See, the meaning of "wet" is "covered in water", which implies that there has to be something else than water, that that something is finite, has an outer boundary or surface, on which water is applied to make it wet. Now, hypothetically, if there was only water spanning infinitely in every direction - would it be correct to say that "water itself is wet"? Probably not. You would rather say something like "water is water" - but, see, this becomes tautological really quickly. Water is water = Water IS = Water = ... ??? (because when all there is is water, it is meaningless to try defining it, because there isn't anything to define it against). Well, it's the exact same thing with "experience" (or perception, or awareness, or knowing, or understanding). All of those contain implied duality: that there is an object to be experienced, the subject who is separate from object and experiences it, and that there is the process of "experiencing" going on. The claim advaita makes is that all there is is "consciousness all the way in every direction". If that were the case, the word "experience" kind of becomes redundant. Consciousness isn't experiencing the phenomena - it is appearing AS phenomena, or sort of "takes shape" of phenomena. So consciousness is consciousness = consciousness IS = consciousness = ... ??? Hence "neti-neti", not this, not that, not anything in particular. The difficult part is to grasp the sheer TOTALITY of it. It is somewhat acceptable for a dualistic mind that colors, sounds and other senses are "made of consciousness", as are thoughts and concepts which are pure abstractions. But once you continue with this line of thinking towards something like "consciousness does not know itself/MYself - it only takes shape of the thought "I am""; or that "consciousness does not know or understand anything - it only takes shape of "knowledge" or "understanding" (even "absolute knowledge and understanding" - because there is no limit to what shape consciousness can take) - then it might start getting existential... You will, in fact, never understand it - IT will appear or take shape of the story of you understanding it. The lights are on but there's nobody home.

Yes. If you work carefully with Solipsism, and what I have read from you so far sounds very responsible. Danger is: When there is no other, there can still be you. Only you. One. Not One without a second. One, but not fully nondual/impersonal. Breakingthewall, from what I read you understand this very well, the danger and potential of that concept. Please allow me some general musings on the topic, not specifically adressed to you. The idea that the ego/separate self is God is the worst idea one can have. We agree on that. Blows up that which one has to kill/transcend. The opposite of Neti Neti. Shooting oneself in the knee and then starting the Marathon, and saying: I have done a good preparation for the run. At least in my perspective, there is zero problem for integrating the different views concerning Solipsism, and its partial truths: Solipsism on the level of the separate self: Wrong. The separate self IS NOT GOD or Reality. Ones True Being (Nothingness) is Infinite Reality, not the separate-self-cloud covering exactly that deep impersonal immortal always here True Identity. Solipsism on the level of the Absolute/Infinite Consciousness/Universal Mind: right. But totally useless once one is there, because it is just another fake concept floating in ones most obvious True Being. One snips it off like a fly. And before being there, it harms one also, because in any way it blows up ones ego, even if very subtle. And even if its just one more concept floating in oneself. I never had the need to think in Solipsistic terms while letting Nonduality ripen. Never. It would have only hurt me on the path, probably big time. How to get rid of "other", the loving style: And if one starts really feeling and intuiting that ones own being and consciousness is looking out from the eyes from another human (or any being): You would never ever start with ideas of Solipsism. Never. Instead, that beginning recognition is the highest level of empathy and love. But at that moment, there is no "you". Just impersonal Consciousness, in you, and the "other". It doesn't even make sense to say there is no other, because that implies that you are there (as concept and subtle separate self identity, not as Reality), because there really is no other. But also no you. Not one, but One without a second. Nondual, and not just Union of one with the Totality. So one can't say there is only me. There is only THAT. And nothing more can be said about that. And it is not one! It is not two! It is the one without a second. Nondual. Not one. And THAT is love, THAT is impersonal being, THAT is the essence of all of Reality. And THAT is also Nothingness. But anyway: If one thinks about it while on the way of getting to the Absolute, the concept of Solipsism is not useful. And when "one" is there, it is another crappy and redundant concept floating through oneself that also doesn't make sense. Which means nothing else then: The concept is not useful at any point in time on the path. It is a half-true half-false concept, making it completely false. Like every half-truth. If one wants to get home fast, better forget about it! Or use it with extreme care. I personally would rather recommend dissolving each and every concept, let real nonduality (an awakened state) ripen in an nonceonceptual empty mindstream, than playing Russian Roulette with such a concept. Ones separate self is not even dead when the shot goes off, but even more alive and bigger than ever.... Selling Water by the River

@Razard86 How did you realize that Absolute Solipsism is the Absolute Truth? Contemplation? Psychedelics? Neti Neti?

So true. A good path can drop one at the doopstep of the Absolute. But there, all concepts fail, all duality must come to an an end, and the last separate self subjectivity/individuality must be seen moving in oneself/transcended and cut off/dropped/died. Only then will ones True Being reveal itself. That is the essence of Mahamudra Nonmeditation Yoga for example. And one throws the stick into the fire when one is there, not before. So good concepts (the stick one later throws into the fire) get one to the doorstep of the Absolute, and for that one must already by very very empty. Neti Neti. A concept like Solipsism is not at all useful for doing that, despite certain partial truths hold valid ONCE having realized the Absolute. But then one doesn't need to talk about. Because there are no others... And one doesn't want to blow up the separate-self-image/narcicissm of "other" perspective that still have the Illusion-separate-self-ego well and alive appearing in their mindstreams with concepts like Solipsism, which just are not true on the level of a ego/separate self still well and alive. Solipsism is a path that leads nowhere, promises things it can't hold, and leads in circles. While Maya lovingly smiles at oneself, enjoying the show, and tells one how much she loves one and how oh so great one is. Neti Neti delivers, and that is why each and every meditation system and spiritual traditions goes that road. Not one system goes the conceptual Solipsism road. Either all that came before must have been iditos (Remember Ken Wilbers: Nobody is smart enough to be wrong all the time), or there is a deep deep truth to the Neti Neti approach, since Humanity has used it ever since. And if one wants to go a certain part of the Solipsism road on ones path, how about doing it with style: We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. - Kalu Rinpoche Selling Water by the River

So, lets go through it. Number of Pictures 1 5 9 2 6 10 3 7 11 4 8 12 1: Identity with THAT (That=anything, any CONCEPT. Body-Mind. Ego. World. Whatever. n+1). Roger Thisdell stage 1: 2: Wiping/Process of Transcending the Identity with any self-concept (Body-Mind. Ego. World. God. Whatever. n+1) 3: I AM (identity with being, but nothing specific anymore. "Opaque" witness, not fully empty) Roger Thisdell Stage 2 4: Wiping/Transcending/Killing the BEING anything at all 5: There is still some Identity: I. But nothing specific at all, pretty empty. A pretty empty "Transparent" Witness. Can be quite nondual (One Mind/the whole visual field. One (but a not empty one), united with the nondual visual field. Many Psychedelic Experiences throw one here. Nondual, but not fully empty, Sense of transparent/pretty empty Self/Witness still well and alive. Roger Thisdell stage 3. 6: Wiping/Transcending/Killing the transparent Witness 7: One is No-Self. Nothing. Buuut: Identity with No-Self/Nothing, the perceiving or understanding of being Nothing. Still one arising/subtle identity/concept too much. A Portal to the Absolute. Awareness OF Emptiness. Awareness OF Being. Any Awarness OF is still not fully nondual. Even if Awareness OF Emptiness/Being/Infinite/whatever n+1 . Psychedelics can bring one here, if "one" gets already quite empty, but Individuality (very subtle/murky here) is still there. Roger Thisdells Stage 4: 8/9/10/11: Understanding and letting go even this last self-referential concept/thought/identity 12: Nothing. Pure Suchness. Infinite Consciousness so empty that there is not even a Watcher/Awarerer/Identity with No-Self. Final Enlightenment. Ultimate Reality itself. Only then, daily life is nondual, infinite, enlightened. And the bliss of ones True Being, NOTHINGNESS, flows freely. Really no separate self/individuality left. Only then one is really the whole Enchilada without any filters/lenses/localization of any separate self/individuality. The character keeps continuing doing its thing in ones True Self, Reality itself. The price of that: Any self-reflective awareness of being anything (separate) at all is transcended, and can be seen happening within oneself. Understood, and no longer believed, mostly just cut off (that Illusion again). And that is not even being the "No-Self Self" of Thisdells stage 4, or picture 7. To be fully everything in daily life (fully nondual) without any separation, one needs to be fully nothing at all. Totally empty. Any separate self, however subtle, fully gone. And the last remnants of Individuality or separate self can be very very subtle. Only that gets the permanent bliss and love flowing that has got its home in the Nondual True Self. "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche" Roger Thisdell Stage 5 And by the way, any just conceptual identity with anything (The THAT of I am THAT), That=anything, any CONCEPT. Body-Mind. Ego. World. Whatever. n+1), even with God/Reality/whatever, is picture 1 of the path in daily life. I AM THAT (That=God/Reality/whatever). Because it is normally not a nondual awakened state in daily life, but just some ideas taken away from a trip that got one to Nonduality. A hang-over of the trip, while being currently not at all in an awakened or nondual state. And hopefully it is at least this (a hang-over from a trip), and not just some pure conceptual trip without any change in states towards at least a bit awakening, and not just a pure head-trip. And actually a much worser starting place, because the lovely concept of being God blows up ones sense of self (THAT) tremendously. Neti Neti didn't get easier with making THAT bigger than it was before.... Pour encourager les autres.... Sorry Selling Water by the River

Yup, agree with that. emptiness [small e] in the meaning of nothing, as in opposite of something, is imaginary so to say. At least for me, the usage of Emptiness/Shunyata is more something along these lines, as per my last post: "A good meaning of Emptiness/Shunyata [big E] is (in the opinion of yours truly, in the meaning of "a good meaning/concept brings one closer to realization, not away from it) all is just a construct of mind (emptiness of concepts), and the passing nature of everything (of even empty/void states/cessation/Nirvikalpha) basically, that everything (apperance, state, self-thought/concept-arising, anything at all) is just an imagined arising in the Absolute. Just an apperance, a process, a verb, not a noun, a self-existing substance or thing. It all happens in True Infinite You, nothing is permanent, all changing and in flux. a verb, not a noun. every and each appearance "thing"/arising is finite, temporary, passing. Not the Infinite/Absolute." So the Buddhist usage of Emptiness/Shunyata normally aims not to emptiness in the sense of nothing there or nothing, but more on the transient character of all manifestation/phenomena/arisings (which then could be called imaginary, or temporarily arising IN Reality made OF Reality/Nothingness). And so it also emphasizes the unlimited potential, or infinite potential of the Absolute, or Nothingness. So in that sense it means more Infinite Reality. Although considering THE Emptiness as a thing is then the so called eternalist error, making it a thing. Considering it as non-existent would be the Nihilist error. Its nothing specific, yet it is not nothing. Emptiness/Shunyata is Infinite Reality itself. The Buddhists take the Emptiness perspective, Vedanta takes the Infinite Consciousness perspective. Both are methods to point to Absolute Reality where both Dualities (Something, Nothing) collapse: The Opening of Reality itself, nothing specific that appears (in it), but also not nothing (like in nothing at all). But yeah, I agree with your posts. It is always a question of what one understands under these terms, like emptiness/nothing, or Empitness/Shunyata/ Nothingness/Absolute. There is a lot of "gray area usage" in many articles, and sooo much potential for mutual misunderstanding because of varying use of terms. The Buddhist Emptiness/Shunyata normally is not equated with nothing, but more with the list of items above. But that is just a question how one defines and uses these terms.... Saying the Absolute or True You needs to be fully empty on the other side means exactly that: It/One needs to be nothing at all, Neti Neti gone to the end of full infinite nondual No-Self, else one confuses it with an object/arising. Only when fully empty, it/one can conforms with Nothingness/Absolute, the essence of reality. And that then (when fully empty) can contain everything. Okay, I admit, that post was for the hardcore-aficionados-fraction . Bassui finished his letters always with something like this (to not get anybody get caught up in unnecessary concepts): After reading, throw it into the fire. Same with this post of yours truly... What I want to say is: if one continues with Neti Neti in meditation and practice, one is doing fine, and doesn't associate the Absolute/Nothingness with anything that can be described, pointed to, talked about, has properties, and so on, but PURE indescribably, or being totally infinite (which is the same as totally empty/Empty), then one is also doing fine. One only gets problems when ones Absolute is not fully empty/Emptiness/Nothingness. For example if it changes or has certain properties attributed to it, like the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness/Absolute can have (like God, Gods, Intelligence, Love, whatever n+1). Or even "better", pretty empty remnants of the separate self (empty nondual witness, Awareness "of" sth., and so on). And the Absolute can be fine without any show appearing in it. Empty, Infinite. Cessation/Nirvikalpha/Deep Sleep. Water by the River

Neti-Neti (Vedantic) is a technique used to disidentfy any subject in ones mindstream. I am not this, I am not that. Making it from "being it/subject" to "seeing it/making it an object" moving within onself. Any I-thought and I-feeling can be watched as arisings/objects moving within Oneself. Differentiate, transcend, integrate. Why? Because ones Real Self is TOTALLY empty. Anything one thinks one is has to be made something moving in onself, an object. Or even better: I am not only this. Neti-Neti is the basis/core of all meditation, Buddhist and Vedantic alike. Maybe you like the check Daniel Browns Dissertation on the central meditation system of Yoga (Patanjali), Mahamudra (Tibetan Buddhism), and Theravada. They all have the same "deep structure" of the path, but take views from Emptiness (Buddhism) and Infinite Conciousness (Yoga, Vedantic, Hindu-style). These concepts colour the experiences, but Reality and the outcome of Enlightenment has the same deep structures. But better read directly Pointing Out the Great Way, the Mahamudra system is the most efficient and highest developed system of all of them, according to Daniel Brown. Yours truly can confirm its efficiency from own experience. Madhyamaka ("4 negations" above), the central tenet of Buddhist Philosophy since the Mahayana, basically says: The Absolute is truly Infinite. Or neither existent, nor nonexistent, / Nor both existent and nonexistent, nor neither. One can not describe it in any way, since it transcends and contains all limits. Any "positive" description would limit it. So one can not say it exists. Ex-isting literally means "standing out from reality"[as something specific, discernable]. But the Absolute is Infinite Reality itself, so it can't stand out from itself [as Reality] as something specific. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence from Latin existere, to come forth, be manifest, ex + sistere, to stand. One can not say it doesn't exist, because there clearly are at least perceptions perceiving themselves. There is some kind of show. One can not say its both existing and not existing at the same time. Because that doesn't make sense. And to rule out the last option: one can not say it neither exists nor doesn't exist. That also doesn't make sense. And Buddhism does this Madhyamaka-thing pretty much ever since to avoid any funny idea/concept being put on the Absolute, like Consciousness, God, Love, whatever, n+1. Sure, God is so to say the first manifestation, and love is also the essence of it all. But its too easy to project that on the Absolute, and make it not fully empty or infinite. Which then prevents its full realization. To say the essence of everything is God or Love is fully ok, because that refers already to something manifested, something, something no longer infinite. Emptiness/Shunyata wants to make sure that one doesn't identify anything positive with either ones True Self, nor the Absolute. Empty it out. Or make it fully infinite. Of course, Emptiness again can be made to something "self-existing". Like a state of void/emptiness, or cessation, or Nirvikalpha Samadhi. Then, it is said one has to empty out emptiness: The void is also just a state, something self-existing. It all appears in the Infinite. Emptiness as concept or theory has been used in Buddhism "to death", in many different, often incorrect usages. A good meaning of emptiness/Shunyata is (in the opinion of yours truly, in the meaning of "a good meaning/concept brings one closer to realization, not away from it) all is just a construct of mind (emptiness of concepts), and the passing nature of everything (of even empty/void states/cessation/Nirvikalpha) basically, that everything (apperance, state, self-thought/concept-arising, anything at all) is just an imagined arising in the Absolute. Just an apperance, a process, a verb, not a noun, a self-existing substance or thing. It all happens in True Infinite You, nothing is permanent, all changing and in flux. a verb, not a noun. every and each appearance "thing"/arising is finite, temporary, passing. Not the Infinite/Absolute. Now comes the funny part: Since the Absolute is also NOT Emptiness, the Hindus use the term Infinite Consciousness. Which is also correct, once its fully empty and impersonal. One can more easily project unncessary properties on Infinite Consciousness than on Emptiness/Shunyata. But Shunyata sounds like Nihilism, which also isn't IT. Basically IT/Absolute is Infinite Reality or Infinite Consciousness itself, with potential for sentience if something manifests (perceptions perceiving themselves, that is why it is not Nothing, and has infinite Potential), but at the same time it is not something, because if it would be something, it couldn't be everything. It would not be infinite, but finite and limited. If you are so inclined to read a long post of yours truly, Nothingness is in my humble opinion the best pointer (a term coined by Andrew Halaw): Sounds complicated and paradoxical, but after having passed certain awakening states, only these views makes sense (in that they are able to translate ones new awakening experiences in ways that make sense, or facilitate further growth/transcendence). Then, its no more paradoxical at all. So, if you are so inclined get some nondual experiences, sobre or not, get pretty empty yourself, and see for yourself what you truly really are.... Selling Water by the River

I'm not very well versed in Buddhist terminology. Are the "4 negations" above the exact equivalent of the Vedantic "neti-neti", or do they imply something extra? Also, the term "Shunya/Emptiness" has always rubbed me the wrong way, too positively loaded for my nihilistic tastes, but now I'm just rambling.

Hey davecraw, thanks for posting. Let me address each of your points. Right now this section of my post is in your clear experience, but the rest is in your periphery. When you get to the rest of the post, this part here will become the periphery and only a memory, but that whole state would also be part of your experience. "Memory" is also experience. The experiencer knowing stuff that is not in his experience anymore, is also part of the experience. The key insight here is that "past" and "future", as you think of them, are also experience. your senses, cognitive functions, and physical abilities are not beyond experience, but are an integral part of your experience. Try to imagine that there is nothing beyond your experience, your experience right now, is all that exists. This can completely be possible. I am not saying it is, but it could be. So after this thought experiment, do your senses, cognitive functions, physical abilities disappear? No they don't. The key insight here is that using your hand to taste the food, is all part of the experience. The user, the used and the using, all forms part of the experience. Experience is not mere visual field in the present moment. As explained earlier, expand your definition of 'experience'. If I have to explain this action according to "experiencer and experience are the same", then it would go like this. A part of the experience(your sense of self), decided that it will control another part of the experience(closing of the eyes), to effect another part of the experience(the visual field). To understand the sameness between the two, you cannot use logic like you tried to present in your post. I invite you to do "neti-neti" or the "I AM" meditation practices to completely detach from your sense of self. It's a state where you feel, quite literally, that there is no experiencer. This state is where the argument "experience and experiencer are the same" originate from. If you wholeheartedly feel this statement is wrong, then please try to achieve the state mentioned above, it's quite real.

Solipsism and Infinity of Gods is what you end with when you have understood a lot about the manifestated side of Reality/Consciousness (infinite mere appearance hovering nondual in Nothingness), which you can (more or less easily) access via psychedelics. But one oneself is not normally fully Empty/Impersonal Consciousness then. Not full Impersonal Nothingness. Of course one then has to project the remnants of the Inviduality/feelings of being OF something on reality (I am God, sovereign, all of it, all of this God/Buddhafield/Universe/Dimension). Because, as per my last post, the separate self can't fully imagine not being there anymore. If it could, it would be gone right away/enlightened/wake up. Traditional Great Masters had to "generate" this Nonduality/Unity states (infinite mere appearance hovering nondual in Nothingness) via getting empty/impersonal/transcending the separate self. Believe me, that takes a looong time of getting pretty empty/transcending the separate self arisings as an optional show within oneself. So they understand the impersonal empty aspect of Nothingness/Consciousness BEFORE they understand the manifested side (nondual, infinite, mere appearance hovering in Nothingness) of Infinite Consciousness, because these states they only get when being fully empty and impersonal themselves. Pure Consciousness/Reality, nothing specific, no separate self left. Its some kind of "build-in-quality-control" of the classical meditation paths (Neti Neti): You only get to see the Infinite/mere appearance/nondual Nothingness-aspect of the manifestations of the visual field (any kind of field) when being fully empty/Nothingness. So what should one get to see in theory (and apparently in practice also) if one ends up after "seeing" the infinite manifestation of Infinite Consciousness/God while not fully being nothing/Nothingness/God-proper? Solipsism (1) (or the separate self remnants realizing its identity with THIS universe/Buddha-Field/all of it). And that is "true" in so far that there are psychedelic experiences that very much feel like that. But a partial truth, there is more to go, higher truths... Full Enlightenment/Deep Identity Change to full empty Nothingness. and pushing even further, see Video "Infinity of Gods (2)", OTHER Gods/Buddhafields. Or Infinity of Gods. Thats the utmost peak of that cul-de-sac, because: Oh no, there are OTHERS like "oneself". And an Infinity of them. An Infinity of Gods. Problem: Very Nondual and infinite and Oneness and being Ultimate Reality/Absolute indeed.... So, a (2) continuation of another partial truth (1). Not the end of the story, but something that can happen, depending on the path up the mountain. A direct experience, that needs to be unpacked and interpreted. And the final truth is: Full Enlightenment/Deep Identity Change to full empty Nothingness. No other. One without a second. And: Nothing further. The understanding that one fooled oneself in ingenious ways (like, the whole show, a rabbit hole infinitely deep...) , and the complexity how one fools oneself, comes included with Enlightenment (by definition). Its all appearance within oneself, all illusion. What would be necessary now,at (1) or (2), would be to fully die/transcend ones separate self-arisings, becoming fully impersonal and nothing/empty, realizing ones Deep Identity with Nothingness/Absolute Reality. And then one throws out (better: transcends, or spots fast enough while it arises in oneself and just cuts it off, automated-style) each and every subtle concept/feeling of oneself and of the Absolute/Reality, for the Absolute CONTAINS them all, but is NONE of them. The Absolute/Nothingness can only be described in negative language, of what it is not. In-finite. Not finite. Not measurable, not defineable. Reality itself. But for that, one needs normally a lot of time in these empty and impersonal states (if ones name is not Ramana, one probably does). So how much 5 MeO can a human take, and how empty of any form of separate self are these states really? The tried and true technique is and ever has been meditation, or transcending/dying of each and every arising of the separate-self (transcending, or spotting fast enough while it arises in oneself and just cuts it off, automated-style), delivering as much time in these empty impersonal states, the Portals of the Absolute, see one of my last posts, as necessary. By the way, I am in no way against psychedelics. Psychedelics plus meditation. So psychedelics alone remains a dangerous path with potential for ego/separate self-inflation, instead of full ego/separate-self transcedence/death, until spiritual culture fully gets to grips with these quite new phenomena of highly efficient psychedelics like 5 MeO and so on. But the psychedelic path is here, and it won't go away. We will see its challenges, disfunctions and trainwrecks, its sweetness for the ego to hijack it for narcicissm/solipsism/hybris and ego inflation, being explored first time in scale in broad daylight here in this forum. Probably until the end of our days. But also the vast potential of this path. Let's see if the dark side or the light side of the force prevails. I don't know, let's see. Probably a mix of both. In the longterm, the light side of the force prevails as always, simply because the Kosmos wants to grow in evolution/complexity/awakening to itself, but until then if history shows anything any misuse and f***up possible will be fully expored and savored by humanity. Until it finally gets it right. So: Show must go on. And I am waiting and looking forward very much for the first ever fully empty/impersonal/fully enlightened Alienmind walking here on earth on two legs, thinking and understanding the Kosmos/Reality in non-linear ways like never seen before in simple non-psychedelic-boosted human mind-streams. The content and aspects of that post is more elaborated in my previous posts. Selling Water by the River

Razard, your writing/post above is also only concepts. You disagree with the concepts of others, using concepts yourself. Your logic (or any kind of logic) is also based on your concepts. You are doing something called Performative Contradiction all the time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_contradiction But you attack only concepts you don't like, not your own. And you do that because you apparently LIKE doing that. Because it boosts your worldview (aka Ego), mainly selling the concept of Solipsism. And why do you like that concept of Solipsism? Because you can run a huge show with it. A leave it to the readers to decide what kind of show that is.... All concepts are only relative, none of them are Absolute Truth. Mine and yours! They all only arise in Absolute Truth/Reality. The quality of concepts as pointers/path is determined only by where they lead (their relative truth): To realizing the Absolute beyond concepts, or Enlightement or ones True Self, or not. Or more into the claws of the separate self-contraction and its narcicissm and grandiosity, which only leads to more suffering. And since this True Self if fully empty and impersonal, you can not pass the Gateless Gate when you are not fully empty. And Solipsism and the concepts you propagate do not empty oneself, Neti Neti. They rather tend to boost ones separate self with narcicissm and self-grandiosity. Your path of killing any concept you don't like "with its all concept" is contradictory, leading to you yourself being contradictoy. Which is just another word for suffering. All the best Selling Water by the River

Exactly. Solipsism is another concept, like any(!) other. Including the more useful pointers, that actually lead to their referent. Like Neti Neti for example... In what arises that concept of Solipsism? That is the Koan that, if followed to its very end can solve all this confusion that the concept of Solisism brings with it. But Solipsism as a pointer, as an injunction, an actual practice, doesn't lead to the Absolute. It leads to Narcicissm if done from the level of the separate self well & alive. Just to more mental conceptual fantasies. Neti Neti and meditation does lead to the transcendence of the separate-self-illusion, finally revealing that in which all concepts arise, Absolute Reality, or Infinite Impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness. Selling Water by the River

A nice post from Frank Yang on Bernadette Roberts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernadette_Roberts ). https://www.instagram.com/p/CsJMKS6uNZf/ True No-Self is not the No-Self of no Ego, or No-Person, not even the No-Self of the Unitive States, or "being" a Nondual/Unitive Infinite (mere appearance) Field (that still contains an awareness (a separate self with individuality is having, subject) of an infinite empty nondual field ("object"), for example induced temporarily by psychedelics). True No-Self is the final death (or transcendece) of any form of the separate self, crossing over to Infinite Fully Empty Impersonal Nothingness/Consciousness, or Full Enlightenment. "There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all". - Kalu Rinpoche True No-Self can not be understood before fully waking up, before Great or Final Enlightenment, where any reamaining separate self fully dies/gets transcended, Infinite Impersonal Consciousness unseparable of its appearances arising within in. That last deep identity change is not gradual, but sudden. Unexpected. And has nothing beyond it. The dropping of the separate self can not (by definition) be imagined or understood before it finally happening, see the yellow markings above. Because who would do the imagining? A separate self (in whatever version). Which has to be gone to fully wake up. So the separate self can't do the imagining how it "would be like" to be gone. It is the "thing" doing/being the imagining. "Incapable of conceiving its own non existence", see text above. When one walks down the unitive states road to the end, boosted by Psychedelics, one can end up with forms of solipsism, and even further with an Infinity of Gods. A confusion of that with the Absolute, or Fully Empty Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, certain separate self aspects still left untranscended. Which then kill the unitive and nondual state of this separate self/unity-state-identity/God within an Infinity of Gods/Alien/n+1 when coming out of the trip. Necessary for that confusion (some form of pre-trans confusion to use the wording of Ken Wilber) is, among other confusions, to misidentitfy True No-Self: not True No-Self (the death/transcendence of any and all separate self/Individuality arisings, resulting in fully empty IMPERSONAL Consciousness/Nothingness/Absolute) but with some lower forms of "No-Self", like No-Ego, No-Person, No-separate-body-mind (but nondual), No-Self of Unitive States up to a very subtle and empty transparent Witness (already nondual, being the nondual infinite field), but with some Individuality still left. The last dropping/transcending/-seeing as objects arising in ones True Self- of identity, center, localization, any forms of individuality-arisings, very very subtle feelings or awareness OF Emptiness, OF an infinite universe being seen, awareness OF being, awareness of anything is what finally brings this sudden crossing over to ones Real Identity. Waking up, Enlightenment, fully empty and impersonal Consciousness/Reality. And that is where there is nowhere further to go (no n+1, no new Awakenings), final peace and liberation are to be found. In ones True Identity. And that is why stopping short, and declaring that stopping short (New Awakening n+1) as higher as that crossing over to ones Real Identity (Nothingness), is a dangerous pre-trans-confusion, which doesn't lead to ones True Being and final liberation and the end of suffering, but a continued grasping and suffering for ever higher and newer "Awakenings" not into emptiness/Nothingness, but form/manifestation, and how the manifestation/imagining process is structured. And for those not even walking this (psychedelic-) path, but basking in proliferating mere (retold) concepts or stories about this path, ending in Solipsism and Infinity of Gods, it doesn't even deliver the transcendence and beauty that these unitive and infinite psychedelic states bring. But something on a spectrum ranging from suffering to madness. The spiritual path is the transcendence of the separate self, its death or letting go, once and for all. Neti Neti, until fully being everything, because one has become the real Nothing/ness. Not the blowing up of the separate-self to infinite God-like-solipsistic dimension. That would be the other direction, leading not to freedom and love, but to suffering and closing down. Directly into the cycle of merciless suffering and dissatisfaction, being caught in the prison of the claws of the separate self/ego/self-contraction. That is what makes this pre/trans-confusion (at least in the perspective of yours truly) very very dangerous. And now, for those disagreeing, the Bear-and-Empty-Mirror thing (signature link) please Selling Water by the River PS: And to end a bit "lighter": A Samsara/Lila consisting of separate selves necessarily needs continuing Illusion/Ignorance concerning ones True Identity. So for the fraction that will for sure not change its mind just because there is Water being sold at the River (posting above), and still prefers to continue with a certain solipsistic-messiah complex, yours truly would recommend considering doing it with style: Something like the very charming and apparently very attractive for the ladies - style of Russell Brand: Then, at least, its very charming . Less capital letters, less exclamation-marks, less angry criticism, blaming and calling names, but truck-loads of charm, (especially) with the opposite sex!

Consciousness and understanding both above and maybe encompassing (I personally think that increasing consciousness alone is not enough for full development of those if not shifted in those directions using appropriate techniques) neti neti, magick etc.

Yes, agree. Please allow me some further musings (not specifically adressed to your post, just some general ramblings).... Others don't exist. Yes. But at the same time, "oneself"/separate self also does not exist. Exist=Ex-ist, or literally: standing out from Reality. Practically: really doesn't exist. Just an illusion. Has the same level of reality/existence as the tree "one" watches: an arising illusion. In reality, when the separate self illusion no longer arises, the tree is watching itself, perceptions perceiving themselves. And practically speaking: If one gets rid of the fake illusory separate-self, the problem of "others" is also solved: Non Dual. No others. Not Two. But also not one.... Because one doesn't make sense without two. Reality itself. Is not one. Is not two. Is infinite. And that Reality is fully empty, fully impersonal, perceptions perceiving themselves. If one gets rid of others first before getting rid/transcending ones separate self, one gets the solipsism-narcissm show. And nothing with real Nonduality, not two, but just a ego-show of the highest degree. Neti Neti. The deep structure of EVERY spiritual path. Before becoming everything, one has to become nothing. Nothingness. Because if one doesn't, one isn't fully empty/Nothingness, which is the essence of every appearance. Path (1) is hard, its transcending/letting go/death and dying of the separate self. Path (2) seems easy (just change some concepts/thinking, et voila), but backfires at the end. It just doesn't work, suffering continues. So if one is not fully empty/impersonal/fully Nothingness (goal path 1), only thing left to do (path 2) to is to project this more (like an empty witness) or less (like the fully narcicisstic ego-separate-self-grandiosity-show) onto a more or less nondual field. True nonduality is being fully empty/impersonal. Its very easy to get a nondual experience merging with the visual field while not being empty, still being a separate self with individuality: Just drop some Psychedelics.... Nondual is not enlightened (or fully imperpersonal Nothingness being Everything, or Reality itself). But Nonduality is a prerequisite of realizing true Nonduality, or the fully empty impersonal Enlightenment/Nonduality, realizing ones Identity as Reality itself. Empty, Impersonal Nothingness, or Pure Empty Impersonal Infinite Consciousness. The essence of all arisings, Infinite Reality itself, the Absolute. Thou shalt not be able to see my face; for no man shall see my face, and live. - Exodus 33:20 Selling Water by the River