eskwire

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Posts posted by eskwire

  3. Posted · Edited by eskwire

    I am having such a good time reading studies on this! It's fascinating. 

    My favorite quotation so far, "This study represents further preliminary evidence that HB [Holotropic Breathwork] may be psychologically beneficial, and specifically that it may reduce psychiatric symptoms in mild-to-moderately distressed, educated, white females" aka me. ??? So good.

    Anyway, @Source_Mystic, I am plugging away. There is a lot of dense reading I have to do, so I will probably have something decent put together this weekend I hope. So far, looks like voluntary hyperventilation is already used as exposure therapy for people with anxiety and panic disorders and has been deemed safe, but I will get you the details.

    This quotation was interesting, "Cerebral hemodynamic measurement has shown that within 20-30 seconds of voluntary hyperventilation, blood flow velocity decreases in cerebral arteries, along with increases in capillary pH, Po2, and oxygen saturation."

  4. Posted

    @Source_Mystic I don't know what dose of lowered O2 is a poison for x duration, but neither do you. You are insistent on 100 at all times and that is silly. It drops during exercise. Do you want everyone to stop exercising, too?

    Tell you what. I have a Masters of Public Health. All that means is I have some literacy, resources, and training that would help in researching this topic. 

    If you promise to listen to me and not just repeat the same 3 points, I will make it my personal duty to research this topic as thoroughly as I can this week and share my findings - whatever they may be - unbiased as I can - with the community.

    Please, take a breath. ? It will be ok.

  5. Posted

    3 hours ago, Source_Mystic said:

    My problem is what the mechanism is

    The more research I do the more I see this as dangerous especially as a regular or extended practice. 

    I keep running into-things like this

    "Binding of oxygen to hemoglobin

    Blood is not a wondrous fluid with magical properties. Instead blood is a transport fluid. It transports oxygen, electrolytes, proteins, hormones, fats and sugars to tissues, and removes waste products of metabolism, hormones, products of metabolisms, etc away from tissues. Oxygen is transported by blood from the lungs where it enters the body. However oxygen is very poorly soluble in blood, and blood contains negligible amounts of dissolved oxygen. Practically all oxygen in blood is chemically bound to hemoglobin inside red blood cells. But the chemical binding of oxygen with hemoglobin is directly affected by the acidity and alkalinity of blood (i.e. the pH of blood).

    Hyperventilation causes loss of carbon dioxide from the body, causing the pH of blood to increase and become more alkaline. When blood is more alkaline, hemoglobin binds more tightly with oxygen. Oxygen bound to hemoglobin within red blood cells does nothing, because binding of oxygen to hemoglobin within red blood cells is no more than the body's method of transporting oxygen to the capillaries within the tissues of the body. Within the capillaries of the tissues of the body, the chemical bond between oxygen and hemoglobin is weak enough to allow oxygen to leave the blood and diffuse into the cells surrounding the capillaries, so providing oxygen for the vital, energy-generating chemical processes within the cells forming the tissues of the body. But when hyperventilation causes oxygen to bind more tightly to hemoglobin, less oxygen is released to diffuse into the tissues surrounding the capillaries. The oxyhemoglobin saturation curve demonstrates this effect, showing that hemoglobin binds oxygen more tightly during hyperventilation (Figure 7). This is why hyperventilation can cause less oxygen to enter the tissues of the body from the capillaries, so resulting in hypoxia of the cells outside the blood vessels, even though the blood contains more than sufficient oxygen.

    Hyperventilation causes cerebral hypoxia

    But does hyperventilation cause cerebral hypoxia? Hyperventilation has profound effects on the transport and delivery of oxygen to the tissues of the body. Hyperventilation reduces the cerebral blood flow, and to make matters worse, hyperventilation also causes oxygen to bind more tightly with hemoglobin. Both factors combine to reduce the availability of oxygen to the tissues of the brain, and can even cause cerebral hypoxia. Animal studies reveal that extreme hyperventilation does indeed cause cerebral hypoxia (Clausen 2004, Sugioka 1960). The tragic fatal effects of relative hyperventilation in humans with severe chronic obstructive airway disease, also reveals that hyperventilation in humans can result in cerebral hypoxia severe enough to cause actual brain damage and brain death (Kilburn 1966, Rotheram 1964). Furthermore, hyperventilation has also been implicated as one of the potential causes of postoperative cognitive dysfunction.

    Hyperventilation-induced frontal lobe failure

    This last remark brings us to the effects of hyperventilation on conscious mental function. These were discussed earlier in this chapter and consist of manifestations such as: disturbed mentation, impaired concentration, poor memory, and hallucinations. Feelings of depersonalization are also common, as hyperventilating persons often describe sensations of unreality, or feeling everything is confused and dream-like. Many of these conscious mental experiences and manifestations are similar to those of cerebral hypoxia (see Chapter 4). And during extreme degrees of hyperventilation, the degree of cerebral hypoxia may be sufficient to cause loss of consciousness. But is this true for lesser degrees of hyperventilation?"

    The effect is not the problem the mechanism that is causing the effect is.  It is depriving you brain of oxygen  for however long you are doing it.

    Personalty that is all I need to know.  Healthy brain = 100% O2  > Unhealthy brain =  lack of O2 ...... Any questions ?

    On some level this is doing brain damage.

    As for what leo can do. He needs to take more responsibility for what he puts out if it has the possibility to harm anyone. He also needs to understand  and illustrate  what he is doing better.  As if this has not shown me anything else is that in this instance he was lazy and did not do the research he should have before he backed this practice. 

    He sure put that disclaimer in there though to protect his ass. 

    What it comes down to is the mechanism for this is it is depriving you brain body and organs of oxygen thus creating all the effects because your starved brain can not function normally ask any dr if hypoxia is good for you in any amount. Then compound that damage with regular use. This Whole thing seems insane and the way it is packaged and as a treatment is deceptive. Every time I go looking on the internet I get all the positive testimonials but you know what I do not get anny real explanation on what and how this is occurring .

    Further more if I came up to you on the street and said  "I am going to deprive you brain and body of oxygen for 20 minuets to 3 hours and you will trip  balls.  Would your response  be  "Ya lets do that,  lets do lots of that , on a regular basses  for 9 hours at a time or once a week or once every day. Sounds good to me,  what the fuck do I need my brain for anyway." No your response would be  "are you out of you fucken mind! " 

    I have meditated for years in a lot of different styles none of them cause damage.

    If people really want to hallucinate though extended oxygen deprivation no matter the cost or damage done to their body or brain maybe they do not need it anyway. 

     

    I will no longer call this practice  holotropic/shamanic breathing it will now be  Extended Oxygen Deprivation because lets call a rose a rose.  let's dispense with the new age bullshit and be completely transparent as to what this is and how it does it.

     

     

     

     

     

    "The dose makes the poison."

  6. Posted

    1 hour ago, Source_Mystic said:

     

     

    The facts are the facts Nahm people can test them for themselves and do their own research then proceed or not based on their own findings,  not mine , not leo's.     Leo doped the ball in my opinion by not doing his due diligence on the mechanism that is causing the experience. Which is oxygen deprivation  not surplus oxygen as he states in his video. The brain and body can not get more than 100% oxygen saturation. Furthermore normal ranges of O2 saturation are  95 to 100%.  

    So the very fact that he has not done his research. He has no idea what the mechanism is that is causing this experience and even perpetuates false statements like "It is because you are oxygenating brain so much" (direct quote from video)   Then proceeds to back it on actualize.org as an add hock lazy mans psychotherapy is irresponsible and reckless. The secondary fact that he advocates this as a weekly treatment for a entire year of 52 sessions or 9 hour treatment in one day with short break in between or do it every day for a week is absurd abuse of his power. I have come to expect more form him than that.  There are a lot of people here that are too  impressionable and will see him doing something and think (leo always researches everything if he is doing it if must be fine.)  THIS TIME THAT IS NOT TRUE. He is completely ignorant of the process, and  the mechanism that is causing the effects yet he still backs it for long term use. Even though he does not understand it nor knows if it is safe. 

     

    So what have I done.  Well I tried the technique twice and after each time I tested my  O2 levels they went down which proves that that the effects are coming from oxygen deprivation not ( oxygen surplus ) <------Which is not even a real thing.  Oxygen surplus is a falsehood or fallacy. O2 saturation does not go above 100% ever. 

    Oxygen deprivation is never good nor helpful it always has negative effects thus I think that is valuable information that others should know as well as test for themselves. 

    Secondly I have researched the topic enough in addition to my experiences and symptoms  as well as my measurements of -02 directly after I did the technique to verify the mechanism is in fact  hypoxia. or deficiency of oxygen. 

    I am on the side of truth and awareness as well as concern for peoples health.

    I am not  a blind follower of  of leo or anyone else I think for myself. I do my own research and take no sides.   I am impartial. Nothing would have made me happier  than to find a new technique to add to my tool box. It just ended up that this was not what was advertised , more so it could be harmful. leo has a responsibility to his community to research practices such as this and in an educated manner explain to his followers what is causing the effect and what the risks are. If he is unwilling to do that he should not advocate there use.  He should have the at the very least the best interest of his community at heart and if he does not that is a huge problem.

    I advocate awareness in all things nor do I expect people to blindly believe me.   I expect them to do there own research and then make a informed educated choice after they have come to there own conclusion.  Not mine and not leo's.  If what I am saying is the true.  It is testable and verifiable. If what I am saying is true,  what leo is saying is false. So which  is the mechanism that are causing the effects ?  Is it over oxygenated blood or O2 deprivation. It can not be both.  If leo is wrong you should be evaluating more than just if you should do this technique. You should be asking your self what kind of person advocates the use of something that they do not even understand and could cause harm.  Through all of leos hundreds of talks about truth and  knowledge I though he was above  such a error. In this matter he has allied himself with ignorance or laziness and that is dangerous. More over he has brought that danger to your doorstep because of his influence on this community. I have to say  I am rather disappointed Leo.    

    All I am asking is you look into this practice deeper if you have a smart phone that can test spO2 test it directly after your breathing session.   From there you can study effects of O2 deprivation. If you understand the risks and what you are actually doing and what mechanism that  is actually being utilized to get the effects and  you still want to take the risk. That is completely up to you. At that point I have done my job and brought awareness to this matter.

    I can tell you I will never use this technique myself again. 

    "By using this technique you are agreeing that I am not legally responsible for any physical or psychological harm that you may cause yourself "..... -leo  Gura  direct quote from video.  I am glad he is looking out for himself.

    Nahm I have lost any respect I once had  for you because of this careless comment.   Everyone on this forum should be searching for the truth in all things. Not taking sides but if I must take a side I take the side of truth , knowledge and the fact that I do so out of genuine concern for others well-being  not just for the sake of being  right.

    Yes, that particular statement was incorrect, but that does not mean the technique is ineffective and too dangerous for a lot of us to use. Your slight dip in saturation for a short period of time is not a dealbreaker. I'm rather unmoved by using one measure in such a complicated system. 

    Your concern for due diligence is understandable. I have felt this way about the channel and the forum in the past - when I see highly disturbed people with no IRL support listening to nihilism and doing psychedelics. I fear for their physical safety.

    That said, it is also a trap of our medical system to be too conservative and not advocate something that could be deeply useful out of fear. Also, you will notice that many pharmaceuticals have outrageous, damaging side effects, including death. People take them anyway. Because the search for improvement has risk. 

    Life is not so tidy. While I share your sentiments in some ways, I am at peace with this.

    PS The technique worked exactly as I hoped and I got the info to do it at a perfect time for me. For me, this worked out. I am pleased and his followers are working out the specifics of the mechanisms amongst themselves. 

    He did say something specific that was incorrect. What do you think would rectify the situation?

  7. Posted

    37 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

    I'm not sure I understand. Do you follow a specific cycle? Or do you just label as a sensation comes up? The way I've been doing it is if I notice my awareness is being directed on something visual for example, then I label obviously "see" and then savor whatever it is that I'm focusing on until the next sensation arises. 

    So, rather than following your awareness, pick an order for your sensations and go through that predetermined order.

    Do this for a while anyway, not forever if it's no longer necessary.

    The purpose behind this is to help you not get stuck on something sticky. To detach and move on to the next sense. Any order is fine. 

  9. Posted

    It seems like a matter of not yet detaching, which comes with time and practice.

    The way I do it is I direct my attention rather than label whatever occurs. Label "see" - then I see. Not, "hey there's a plant" - then label "see." 

    Same with internal hearing. Rather than focus on whatever internal thing you hear, then labelling it, only give the internal hearing attention on its turn as you cycle through the sensation channels. 

    Please let me know if this is unclear.

  10. Posted

    3 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

    So it just adds to my point. Although of course it's not 100% sure that her migraine is caused by the breathing, but most likely it is.

    She is also your mom - I think you cause her migraines. Same amount of evidence. ? Think what you want. Do psychedelics instead, like there are 0 mental or physical risks with that (massive eyeroll). Alright man, I'll leave you alone now. ? 

  11. Posted

    38 minutes ago, InfinitePotential said:

    Word af Leo. 

    There seems to be parallels to this technique, and fasting / dry fasting. Both bring out "psychedelic like effects", negative emotions, heighten awareness, go against mainstream medical advice, bring you to the brink of death, etc. With a possible difference being that fasting appears to be extremely physically healthy, when done correctly. And fasting of course has been used extensively throughout history for spiritual purposes. 

    Would be very interested to hear if you've tried any fasting before, and your thoughts and experiences from it. For me personally it's had an amazingly positive impact on my health and well-being. 

    I thought the same thing. It reminds me of fasting - something people also spazz out about.

  12. Posted

    4 hours ago, Mikael89 said:

    It doesn't really matter that he gave a disclaimer.

    It's like: "It can be dangerous to cut your wrist with a knife, now go and do it. I do it too."

    I don't really care if one person is healthy despite depriving his brain on oxygen. 

    Maybe he would be even healthier or equally healthy without the breathing stupidity. Or he might just be a scam or whatever.

     

    Ok I will stop posting about this subject.

    Your reaction is too hysterical to take seriously. Wim Hof is a rather famous man, with many people who do his technique, and he has been studied. Your metaphors are hyperbolic and inaccurate. I am sensing you are overreacting to this because you have issues with your "dumb" mom who has done this. Chill out. 

  13. Posted

    7 minutes ago, sholomar said:

    Interesting. I've been meaning to plan to attend one. I appreciate your input.  Also I just realized something as I sit here making my first posts... trying to give people advice is a trap.. it's my ego trying to get juice out of giving advice.. I made a rule I was going to stay off reddit and other forums because they are time wasters. Though this forum is arguably the most useful one I've ever visited, spending too much time posting when I have such a long way to go in my own journey is just a trap.. so I've instituted a no forums rule to include this forum for now. I'll be back when I've accomplished some of my goals. Take care! 

    That is an ego trap. You can be here without giving advice right away - maybe listen and ask questions first. ;)

  14. Posted

    1 minute ago, sholomar said:

    That is interesting. I admit to not having researched hyperventilation breathing and will look into it out of sheer curiosity. I always look to expand my knowledge base.  I would say that people should work on the core material first though before they try looking into things like this or psychedelics.  The mental work.. mindfulness, visualization, acceptance, affirmations, thought monitoring.. these are the core things that produce results and should come first.. if you feel like you've reached a point in your life where you've nailed all these things down, then perhaps expand outward and try other avenues. 

    That's not necessarily true. Who are you to say what techniques should come first for everyone? Vipassana meditation retreats teach your mind through the body, for example. Working with the body has had the biggest impacts for me and I wish I had done them first.

  15. Posted

    Well! I understand you are doing a mic drop and won't necessarily read this but some points:

    You don't know how low it would dip at 30 minutes because you did 20 minutes. He recommended 30. We can't assume it would be drastically lower than that. 

    We don't know that an oxygen saturation level at slightly lower than normal range for such a short period of time would have a deleterious effect - one that outweighs the potentially positive emotional effects, which in turn have physical effects. The system is too complicated to use only one measure. 

    It does seem the statement in the video about being extra saturated with oxygen could be incorrect.

    It did work exactly as described and desired for me, so I am willing to take the risk.

    An oxygen saturation measurement tool and some more information on experiments/lifestyles incorporating dips in oxygen saturation could be beneficial, along with many other considerations. 

     

  17. Posted

    9 hours ago, Mikael89 said:

    I just watched the video..

    I'm so disappointed.

    I think this shamanic / holotropic breathing thing is bullshit.

    Yes, it has effects, the effects come from the brain getting less oxygen than normally, so not good effects.

    I hope you guys don't actually think that your brain gets more oxygen with hyperventilation, just google search "hyperventilation".

    I really lost respect for Leo now. I feel sad. But I guess just because Leo is wrong in one thing it doesn't mean that he is wrong in all things.

    Although he seems to be wrong in many things.. Healing, chakras.. I'm asking myself: "What if he is wrong with everything?".

    I really believed in the other stuff like for example enlightenment, non-duality, and absolute infinity. But now I will maybe reject even all those things.

    Really.. I'm baffled and confused: How can so many people even believe in this stuff? People are reporting spasms, cramps, ringing ears, headaches, and so on. It's obvious this is bullshit, yet people don't see it.

    What have I gotten myself into? Maybe everything from Leo is bullshit?

    My mom have done shamanic/holotropic breathing and now she often get severe migraine, like 4-5 days per week, she will probably have it for the rest of her life.

    And it's like she have got dumber over the years..

    Jeez. I just realised the connection between her headache and breathing stuff while I was writing this message. I never thought of it before.

    This might be a scandal, I'm sure the video will cause physical damage to many people, and maybe mental.

     

    When did your mom do holotropic breathing and when did her headaches start? How do you mean she's gotten dumber? Has she had more children? That also has an effect on brain function. What are other possible contributing factors? 

    If we want to be more careful about assuming it's fine, let's ask more questions. 

  19. Posted

    9 minutes ago, TruthSeeker47 said:

    Yesterday was my second time doing it, and I increased from 20 mins to 30 mins.

    I felt pretty weird during it like my hands were cramping, my chest also felt very tight.

    After the 30 mins I felt like I had escaped my ego and for a split second I felt like myself as a kid, and then the memories and responsibilities of my current life flooded in and it was really depressing having to experience the change in my self and all the layers of bullshit my ego puts on my awareness.

    Later that night I had REALLY bad diarrhea, like the worst I have ever had and I felt like I also wanted to vomit but thankfully I didn't.

    When I went to bed I had a minor panic attack and I felt like If i stayed in one position, my heart would explode or I would have a seizure or something.

    Definitely a powerful experience but i'm not sure if it's safe for me.

    Whoa, what's your current life like?

  20. Posted · Edited by eskwire

    Just did it. Fresh trip report.

    30 minutes

    Hands and face tingled

    Face tensed up

    Breathing pattern inconsistent

    >>>Expectation - a bunch of trauma would come up and I would bawl over the sadness in a self pitying way

    >>>Reality - I cried at the end and started speaking. To paraphrase the best I can:

    "I do have friends and family and community, I just won't let it into my heart because my heart hurts so much. I can be disappointed but their hearts hurt too - and we don't know how to heal hearts right." 

    >>>Then I laid there trying to be mindful.

    I felt grateful for a friend I met today and Leo. "Tropics of Love" by Black Heart Procession was stuck in my mind - I had been listening to it on repeat the last couple days unconsciously while driving. I thought about messages I wanted to send friends and family - which is interesting because I have been telling people to leave me alone lately. I haven't wanted to talk.

    >>>The last 2 days were spent at a conference for Community Health Workers and I will say that Leo's channel is the best god damn community health project I could even dream of. Thank you, Leo. ?

     

    Addendum:

    Perhaps this opened my heart chakra? Breathing that way is a lot of activity in the chest.

  21. Posted

    On 4/5/2018 at 3:26 AM, Tearos said:

    @eskwire

    I am simply ignorant, that's why I ask questions :)

    Read first, ask questions later. You have no material to work with while you are contemplating this.

    People on this forum have ideas about relativism etc etc and that's fine, so you are going to get a lot of "be whatever, everything is fine" answers, which is also fine. I do, however, recommend that you study some psychology if you want to understand yourself and others. 

  22. Posted

    1 hour ago, Tearos said:

    @InfinitePotential @Leo Gura

    What if someone disagrees with Maslow's image of the better version of oneself?

    Then they can work and live in that way. Whatever. They just might be disagreeing with something they know nothing of. 

    Maslow's not setting forth an image. He makes assertions about psychological mechanisms. The unfolding of those mechanisms is the process of self-actualization. Maslow did not draw a picture of the perfect person for people to mimic.

    Have you read any Maslow or are you just asking deconstructionist questions? 

  23. Posted

    21 hours ago, aurum said:

    @IvanV21

    You don't deal with her, you make a better decision next time you choose who is going to be your girlfriend. Break it off.

    That sounds harsh but you can't control her or fix whatever emotional issues she has. That's not your responsibility.

    And next time you go to commit to a girl, test the waters first. What happens if you suddenly don't text back for a couple days? What happens if you bring a female friend around? If she freaks out at those kind of things, you can expect it will only get way worse once you're actually together.

    @IvanV21 Take the above ^ with some context. Aurum is probably much older than you and your girlfriend. Y'all seem like you're teenagers and that is surely a big part of your issue. 

    Don't just suddenly stop messaging a girl for 2 days. If she is used to hearing from you multiple times a day and you suddenly stop messaging for 2 whole days, what do you think she is going to think? She might think you got seriously hurt. That doesn't make her crazy, that makes you a dick. And if you are going to bring around female friends to test her jealousy, double check yourself about whether or not you are actually ok with her having male friends. Not theoretically - really.

    That's all a tangent, but I found it misogynistic and needed to respond.

    Back to your issue - yes, she sounds needy and clingy. That is a big energy drain for you and I don't think you can help her fix it. She needs to grow up in her own time. 

  24. Posted

    On 3/24/2018 at 4:20 PM, Frylock said:

    What are some ways to build up mental toughness? I hate to say it, but I'm mentally weak right now. So far, I know doing the following things on a consistent basis will help me become stronger:

    -Meditation

    -Cold showers

    -Spending time in nature

    -Working out

    -Pickup/social freedom exercises

    Any other ideas?

    Are you doing these?

    Another vote for martial arts. That makes you deal with spontaneous adversity. Depending on the school and its culture, the personalities may also toughen you up. My teachers/co-workers basically never had a nice or encouraging word. All criticism. 

  25. Posted · Edited by eskwire

    @PsiloPutty Where did you hear that labels were part of Vipassana? What instructions are you following?

    I wouldn't discuss it on this forum because people are going to talk about meditation in general with you and there are many techniques. See how Nahm just posted totally different meditation techniques for you?

    Vipassana is the most powerful meditation technique I have tried and you really need to learn it properly. Do whatever meditations you want until your retreat, just make sure you aren't thinking it's Vipassana. Wait until then to learn it right. 

    --- edit ---

    Ok so I did some reasearch and it seems like some people do advocate for labels in the beginning. The way I learned it (at a 10 day retreat with 1 day follow ups) does not advise this at all. Also, a central part of Vipassana is that pain no longer feels like pain, but like any other sensation. If you keep calling it pain through labels, you won't get to that point. I see big advantages to not using it and my teacher told me not to.

    Just to give you the full story!! Good luck to you.