Does exercising really make you live longer?

[BlueOak]

This is quite in-depth, and I've liked the host in different topics if you haven't seen him before. It made me think of a few things that hadn't occurred to me. Falling, for example, is responsible for many resulting conditions, and contributors to mortality, so strengthening the legs directly helps counter it.

[Schizophonia]

I have never had so little libido since I started exercising regularly.
Sv3rige/Goatis is crazy, but he explained somewhere that he had the same observation.

By reducing sport and increasing my body fat, I went from 650ng/dl at 18 years old to AT LEAST 900 at 20 years old.
The majority of bodybuilders that I follow have a fairly average or even low testosterone level, the first French bodybuilding YouTuber has a little over 520ng/dl, he is hairless, anxious (orthorexic) and is unable to push even 'a little beard.
The majority of sports tend to reduce testosterone levels, perhaps it is different for team sports, if a sport is really pleasant then I imagine that the extra dopamine will compensate for the psychological stress.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

I have never had so little libido since I started exercising regularly.

Now, libido (or testosterone) is one thing that certainly does not correlate squarely with longevity 😂 Neither behaviorally nor physiologically. Or rather for the physiological aspect, it's a bell curve (too low T and too high T is probably not good). Or maybe I'm just talking out of my ass (I know little about the subject). I wonder if OP will react to this 😄

Edited April 3, 2024 by Carl-Richard

[sholomar]

On 4/1/2024 at 7:02 AM, Yousif said:

You’re all scientifically minded and empirical facts worshippers, if you answer this one scientific question then I will let you have it, 

 

tell me, doesn’t relativity mean that everything is relative and nothing is actually a fact, why do you take the stance of having empirical facts then?

 

you literally cannot say something is one thing over its opposite, this is the real world, you cannot say health will make you live longer, even if you take data and measure lifespans of all people, still all you have is a pattern, you do not have a fact, there literally is no such a thing as a fact in the real world.

Recent studies on hormesis suggest the maximum lifespan can be extended, quality of life issues aside, is 30-60%.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1568163723003409?via%3Dihub

Regardless, I don't believe in the "relativity" theories promoted by the stage greens, that there is no "ultimate truth" that and that reality is simply what you perceive. There are very specific rules to incarnating in this physical reality that if violated come with consequences. Just try jumping from a plane without a parachute or drinking gasoline claiming you can do anything, because facts don't exist and everything is perception. Have that peanut allergy? Doesn't matter, munch away... all you have to do is believe that you are invincible.

I'm not inclined to judge those who don't exercise, even if I do. Both my grandparents lived into their 80's without being exercisers. They were frail, but I guess exercise is a habit you either grow to love or you don't , like any other habit, and not everyone wants to live forever or want to spend half their week walking around. One of my grandmothers literally smoked 2 packs a day her entire adult life, for 50 years, because she had a near death experience in her early 20's and didn't fear dying (despite being an atheist at the time)

Regardless, the two things that extend lifespan and quality of life the most tend to be exercise and caloric restriction, specifically lower intensity zone 2 exercise such as slow jogging, which is probably the most beneficial activity any person could really make a habit. I must jog to keep my sciatica in check. It's not an option. It took 60 days for the pain to go away, but it stays away as long as I do my 10-20 miles a week. Road biking on the other hand makes it worse or at best has no effect, which is unfortunate because I enjoy doing it, but if you really think about it, sitting on a hard stationary seat and rotating your legs in a hunched over position is not really natural from an evolutionary standpoint.

For nutrients I've narrowed it down to just a couple the average person could use to help with longevity and just because we tend to be deficient in them:

Vitamin D, K2, and Magnesium.. if you get a lot of sunlight you can skip the D and K2. Humans evolved in sunlight, and now we get almost none. This is a problem as far as production of Vitamin D goes.

Glycine or Collagen in the diet, along with the related compounds choline and betaine (egg yolks and whole wheat) .. we evolved eating the organs, skin, and bones of animals, and now we only eat muscle meat, lacking collagen. We ate a ton of eggs, a top choline source, and are now scared away by government propaganda on eggs.

A diet rich in polyphenols. Think berries and cocoa. They actually work because they provide low dose stressors to the body.. the hormesis effect, as do all plant foods.  The majority of evolution we ate paleolithic... meat, eggs, fish, berries, nuts, and tubers.

https://nautil.us/fruits-and-vegetables-are-trying-to-kill-you-234982/

Regardless there is a lot of analysis paralysis in modern society today. Most people would be better off getting off social media and using common sense over falling into some echo chamber when it comes to anything, not just diet and longevity. Yes, I'm guilty of this. Sigh.

 

Edited April 4, 2024 by sholomar

[Yimpa]

Why not exercise simply because you enjoy it? For example, I wound up doing an unplanned meditation session yesterday and I just let go and basked in it.

I also started jogging a few mins in the morning and I feel fantastic

Edited April 4, 2024 by Yimpa

[Carl-Richard]

10 hours ago, Yimpa said:

Why not exercise simply because you enjoy it?

That's the main reason why I do it. But I don't do it mainly for the "high" (hedonic pleasure). There are many highs I avoid (sugar, drugs). I do it mainly for the increased functionality, which makes life in general more pleasurable (eudaimonic pleasure) and not least more meaningful. The problem with hedonism is that it's experienced as quite meaningless and causes degeneration. When you go for functionality, there is inherent meaning in that, and there is growth rather than degeneration.

Edited April 4, 2024 by Carl-Richard

[UnbornTao]

@Carl-Richard Do you avoid all added sugar?

[Schizophonia]

14 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Now, libido (or testosterone) is one thing that certainly does not correlate squarely with longevity 😂 Neither behaviorally nor physiologically. Or rather for the physiological aspect, it's a bell curve (too low T and too high T is probably not good). Or maybe I'm just talking out of my ass (I know little about the subject). I wonder if OP will react to this 😄

Having huge testosterone levels like in a TRT overdose is certainly bad, but it's still less worse than not having enough, so probably not a steep curve. 

What I meant is that your libido and by extension all the physiological feedback loops involved (HPA axis, HPTA, Monoamine oxidase A/B, reuptake of monoamines and catecholamines, methylation...) are ultimately the reflection of your vital energy.
The secret to longevity and recovery is life energy, ether, kundalini, whatever you want to call it. Otherwise, well, you will fail to heal your cells, replace them with new cells (stem) and you will develop physical pathologies linked to aging.

Since we were born we have only been dying

https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/babies-experience-life-as-an-lsd-trip-as-a-result-of-their-high-metabolism.24941/

[Schizophonia]

Bodybuilding tends to be stressful and sap of life energy, that's what I basically meant.

Competitive team sports would likely have the opposite effect.

[Carl-Richard]

53 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

@Carl-Richard Do you avoid all added sugar?

There are some food items with added sugars that I use, like Sriracha sauce, Barilla basilico tomato sauce, etc. These either contain little added sugar or I use them only in limited amounts. Let me put it this way: I only eat during my 3 meals that only contain "real" foods (proper macronutrient profile) and I only drink water. The only exception is one fruit during my gym workouts. I avoid sodas, juices, cakes, sweets, snacks, caffeine, alcohol, etc. I also mostly avoid foods like pizza where the main ingredients are flour and I avoid eating too much bread (it makes me feel bad).

[UnbornTao]

4 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

There are some food items with added sugars that I use, like Sriracha sauce, Barilla basilico tomato sauce, etc. These either contain little added sugar or I use them only in limited amounts. Let me put it this way: I only eat during my 3 meals that only contain "real" foods (proper macronutrient profile) and I only drink water. The only exception is one fruit during my gym workouts. I avoid sodas, juices, cakes, sweets, snacks, caffeine, alcohol, etc. I also mostly avoid foods like pizza where the main ingredients are flour and I avoid eating too much bread (it makes me feel bad).

Sounds good, thank you.

Going seven days without added sugars wasn't easy for me; not a short-term goal for me as of now.

Edited April 4, 2024 by UnbornTao

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Competitive team sports would likely have the opposite effect.

Why?

[Schizophonia]

57 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Why?

Because it’s clearly motivating/engaging.
Lifting weights in a vacuum is just stressful.

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Because it’s clearly motivating/engaging.
Lifting weights in a vacuum is just stressful.

Horsecocking heavy weight is hella engaging. Wtf are you talking about?

 

 

 

 

[UnbornTao]

@Schizophonia Team sports are more fun and functional, multi-faceted.

Lifting weights isn't that much fun imo compared to soccer, etc. What you do is basically moving your arms up and down. It is comparatively simpler.

[Schizophonia]

25 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

@Schizophonia Team sports are more fun and functional, multi-faceted.

Lifting weights isn't that much fun imo compared to soccer, etc. What you do is basically moving your arms up and down. It is comparatively simpler.

spot on

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

Horsecocking heavy weight is hella engaging. Wtf are you talking about?

 

 

 

No it's boring, even the guy in the second video is just suffering (stressing) and the first video is a compilation of guys raving about personal performances. Don't make me think they're like that most of the time.

Btw, be careful not to confuse bodybuilding and powerlifting.
Powerlifters want to be powerful, most of the time they have an abundance mentality, they are bon vivants.
The average bodybuilder is an orthorexic, generally traumatized by life who thinks that injecting trenbolone will make him attractive to women, it's just sad.

What's funny, however, is when I get criticized for advising really ugly guys (and therefore malformed, in fact) cosmetic surgery which could help change their lives for only a few thousand euros by guys who promote an orthorexic, stressful lifestyle for poor results.

 

Edited April 4, 2024 by Schizophonia

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

@Schizophonia Team sports are more fun and functional, multi-faceted.

Lifting weights isn't that much fun imo compared to soccer, etc. What you do is basically moving your arms up and down. It is comparatively simpler.

Meditation is one of the most engaging things I've ever engaged in, and it consists of moving as little as possible.

But sure, I agree that team sports is in some ways more engaging than some forms of weightlifting, but weightlifting is not 0% engagement/enjoyment. If it was, I wouldn't have been doing it non-stop for 10 years. And there are many exercises you can do that are not simple. For example, there is a reason why deadlifts is an infamous exercise for people doing it wrong.

The type of flow state I get into at the gym is unmatched by anything else. When you get really good at your routine, you become like a well-oiled machine: every exercise, every movement, every drink from the water bottle — all of it runs like clockwork. That is something you get less from team sports because it's less predictable, more probability for error, which can also be a source of frustration. Also, if you're really invested in the outcome of the game, winning or losing (or even the prospect of it) can be hugely stressful.

But we can spend hours over-analyzing these things for and against. It's clear that you can derive enjoyment from almost anything, as long as you're good at it.

 

2 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

No it's boring, even the guy in the second video is just suffering (stressing) and the first video is a compilation of guys raving about personal performances. Don't make me think they're like that most of the time.

"Just stressing" is just wrong. That's just psychotic. And I can assure you, Rick Bugez and Jujimufu are like that all the time ;D 

Btw, videos like this show how "working out" can blur the line with competitive (maybe not "team") sports (although here it's intentionally playful and creative):

 

Also, are you really saying only team sports is fun? What about non-team sports (which weightlifting is a part of by the way)? Why would top athletes spend their life getting good at something that is boring? Just because something is highly structured and "simple" (try doing snatch) like weightlifting doesn't mean it's not fun. People find golf fun for God's sake >:O

 

2 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Btw, be careful not to confuse bodybuilding and powerlifting.
Powerlifters want to be powerful, most of the time they have an abundance mentality, they are bon vivants.
The average bodybuilder is an orthorexic, generally traumatized by life who thinks that injecting trenbolone will make him attractive to women, it's just sad.

What about the average gym goer? (careful not to confuse going to the gym with bodybuilding )

Edited April 4, 2024 by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

@Schizophonia

Also let me echo the CATS model mentioned a few pages earlier (and basically every modern model of stress worth their salt):

Truly harmful "stress" is largely dependent on cognitive appraisal (mental frame). So if you're in a "stressful" situation and you feel like you're coping, it's generally not going to lead to harmful stress. I'll give an example that is a bit more technical than the previously mentioned parachutist example, but I can't be asked to repeat it:

You put a cat in a box and expose it to a stimulus that causes pain if it doesn't move in time, effectively teaching the cat to avoid the stimulus. Over repeated exposures, as the avoidance behavior is mastered, the initial stress response gives way to a relaxed "coping" response. Crucially, it's not that the stress response first arises and then is replaced by the coping response as the avoidance behavior removes the cat from the stimulus. Rather, after mastery, the stress response never actually arises. 

So there is something within the cat that has changed how it interprets the otherwise stressful situation (cognitive appraisal). The same is true for anything else you might consider stressful, including working out while screaming your balls off. If you find working out to be stressful, maybe you're just not very good at it. Maybe you're just a pencil-necked individual (sorry, I love Bugezism ). 

Edited April 4, 2024 by Carl-Richard

[Nemra]

@Schizophonia

Years ago, I was fit compared to now. I was mostly doing push-ups, pull-ups, and other exercises using dumbbells. The feeling of being fit and strong and knowing that I can improve and be more fit and how much I could survive the pain was highly motivating and desirable.

[Schizophonia]

31 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Meditation is one of the most engaging things I've ever engaged in, and it consists of moving as little as possible.

Maybe this is the case for you and that's great, but most people don't like meditation because it's boring.

31 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

But sure, I agree that team sports is in some ways more engaging than some forms of weightlifting, but weightlifting is not 0% engagement/enjoyment.

Fortunaly

31 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

If it was, I wouldn't have been doing it non-stop for 10 years.

Because you are neurotic or homosexual.
It's the same story as "I want a good physique for myself", as if anyone would want to look good on a desert island.
Well no, we want to be handsome to sleep with women, and possibly to integrate socially.

There's no point in bodybuilding when you can do something else except please.

Men would do better to focus on what really matters, namely vital energy.
Sorry to loop around on this lol, but it's the alpha and omega. A person with a strong metabolism will be naturally muscular, with good bones, a big beard, veiny arms, etc.
If you do weight training without a lot of vital energy, you will just exhaust yourself even more and look like a random but with a slightly better physique, still "soft" and weak in general.

Btw, without even cosmetic surgery, most men can improve their face as adults by taking large amounts of testosterone (leaving the aromatase!), or by cycling powerful steroids like 19nor.
Puberty never stops, only the growth plates calcify and prevent you from growing any further, and even then...

I dont recommand steroids at all, that say.

31 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

And there are many exercises you can do that are not simple. For example, there is a reason why deadlifts is an infamous exercise for people doing it wrong.

This is one more reason not to do bodybuilding.

31 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

The type of flow state I get into at the gym is unmatched by anything else. When you get really good at your routine, you become like a well-oiled machine: every exercise, every movement, every drink from the water bottle — all of it runs like clockwork. That is something you get less from team sports because it's less predictable, more probability for error, which also can be a source of frustration.

Anything that takes you away from the problems of daily life, ruminations etc. will trigger the flow state.
When I was learning Python I had a state of flow, that doesn't mean that it's amazing to code and that it's the best thing to do.

31 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Also, if you're really invested in the outcome of the game, winning or losing (or even the prospect of it) can be hugely stressful.

The important thing is not stress, it is the investment ratio and the gain in vital energy that you gain from this investment, against physiological stress.
Being competitive increases your metabolism and hormonal cascade through the roof, outweighing the effects of stress.

31 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

But we can spend hours over-analyzing these things for and against. It's clear that you can derive enjoyment from almost anything, as long as you're good at it.

Yes

31 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

 

"Just stressing" is just wrong. That's just psychotic. And I can assure you, Rick Bugez and Jujimufu are like that all the time ;D 

Btw, videos like this show how "working out" can blur the line with competitive (maybe not "team") sports (although here it's intentionally playful and creative):

 

31 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Also, are you really only saying team sports is fun?

no

It's the firtst term who come to my mind, the point is that to my opinion sport would be a game, otherwise it would just be slavery.

You can be proud of your progress and your physics, but it's pretty small/mediocre, you get used to it and you actually can become dependant of your physics and become bigorexic.

31 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

What about non-team sports (which weightlifting is a part of by the way)? Why would top athletes spend their life getting good at something that is boring?

Because they are stuck in their loop at best out of habit, at worst because of neurosis.
People spend their lives wasting it for whatever reasons.

31 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Just because something is highly structured and "simple" (try doing snatch) like weightlifting doesn't mean it's not fun. People find golf fun for gods sake >:O

Golf is not stressful or even physiologically dangerous.
It's boring yes lol, but it's good for old people or boring people in general.

31 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

What about the average gym goer?

Waste of time.

31 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

(careful not to confuse going to the gym with bodybuilding )

It's true.
Bodybuilding is even worse, people who think they are strong while they take drugs to get on stage like African-American slaves being sold to work in the cotton fields.

 

Excuse me if I seem hostile, it's not, you do what you want if it makes you happy 

 

All I wanted to say, even if I could qualify, is that most of the time it is more stressful than pleasant and that it is probably not the best solution for mental and physical health (and therefore the longitivity).