Posted January 10 Just released. A pretty good analysis from Counterpoints on how the ICJ hearing will go. I agree with the synopsis, but there are some caveats. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 (edited) @Danioover9000 @kenway I think Norman Finkelstein will be commentating the hearing live. Most people won’t read the full 80 page South African document so here’s a tweet thread with interesting parts: Apparently this is one of their defences: Edited January 10 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 (edited) @zazen Yes, with a preview tonight. Edit: Looking at the times / timezones I can't see how this would be a live commentary but worth seeing nonetheless. Edited January 10 by kenway Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 1 hour ago, Nivsch said: @Karmadhi Israelis can say things from an extreme rage but in their default mind state of 95-99% of Israelis they (my feeling from 36 years here) will never support a murder of civilians. But within the culture of the palestinians the whole values and grasp of what is a human and what is humanity the picture is drastically different. I was thinking to myself, since I don’t personally know any Israelites irl. I could not find a frame where I can have an Israeli friend. Since i’ve worked with Palestinian here in the US, and I know some Persian people; It will be so out of frame for me, and the reason is your government that gives your people a bad reputation. See this a problem that you all should be concerned about. I don’t mind Israeli people at all, and I know that my Persian friends are not anti-semites, even the Palestinian - but they do hate your government- yet because of the policies of your government and how shielded Israelites form the ugliness outside of your boarders this will/already does isolate you and will have other people that see you unlike you see your people. How do you know now with this war that more people will start to avoid knowing you? I’ve seen so many nationalities against this war not just arabs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 (edited) @Happy Lizard I am with you on that. This is why the "Israel" this forum see is not even close to the real Israel I know. From that comes the frustration. In a sense this radical governemt hijacked the whole country and society and decided for it how it will be grasped. And the more radical the person the more titles he will get. This completely distorts and hides the true face of our society. Edited January 10 by Nivsch 🌻 Stage Yellow emerges when Green starts to have tolerance and respect to the variety of views within HIMSELF. Israelis here? Let me know! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 On the eve of this moment that will define history. We are all on the cusp of change and it feels amazing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 @Nivsch great, I had a sense that you are perceiving the criticism for the Israeli government as criticism for the people. I believe in your society too and in all what you say, and for this reason exactly I think you should be taking the position of a targeting campaign or less distractive war. It’s tragic and criminal what happened to your people. my view is that the situation is not simple. It’s a challenge for all of us even people not in that geographical location to hold what is happening and see all parts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 (edited) 3 hours ago, Danioover9000 said: Israel is definitely Spiral Dynamics stage red and blue mostly, with some orange and tiny green, not freaking blue-orange-green, that's not how colour theory works. To be honest, Israel to me seems a mix between blue and orange with an extremely toxic blue government and army. Little Green in it since they do allow LGBT and stuff but not much. I heard they are also somewhat racist towards darker skin Jews (like the Ethiopian sterilizing thingy) and Palestinian Arabs. The settlers are definetly blue religious' fanatics since they use their holy books to justify devilry, classic stuff. Just because a country is above red does not mean they are not capable of genocide, ethnic cleansing and horrible war crimes. Ethnic cleansing, which Israel is defiantly doing (I literally sent sources of what their ministers want) is a blue activity. Bombing of civilians can happen both in Blue and Orange. I am still unsure whether there is genocide happening in Gaza right now, but definately genocidal actions have been happening like collective punishment. Red is characterized by "barbaric" type of violence. For example cutting heads, burning people alive etc. I have not seen many reports from the IDF doing such stuff. It is usually either shooting people or bombing them. Red would be Mongolian hordes or Japan in Asia (Rape of Nanking etc). Blue would be Nazi Germany and to some extent the USSR. However I feel like Israel has a deep rooted blue component since its foundation. Being accused of stealing land by all its neighboors and fighting wars for decades while being called a theft has caused them as a society to fundamentally see Palestinians as lesser. Otherwise the guilt would be too big and they would crumble as a country. This view of Palestinians as "uncivilized beasts" is how blue sees red (leo made a video about this). If Israel was truly green, it would feel sorry for Palestinians, see them as victims. That is how Green sees Red. As victims, sometimes a bit too naively. This is how I see them (I consider myself mostly Green with some orange) and that causes me to side with them hardcore on this war. Although I would not put all Palestinians as red. I think Hamas is definately a hardcore toxic Red and maybe some people in Gaza that support Hamas fully are red but I think most of them have a lot of blue in them. Especially the ones in the West Bank I would put mostly blue. We have a clash of two blue societies and that causes so much hatred. Blue against blue is the worst combination when it comes to solving conflicts. Two mules. @Nivsch Would like also your output on this text since I wrote a lot. Edited January 10 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 1 hour ago, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke to the nation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 @Karmadhi 20 minutes ago, Karmadhi said: To be honest, Israel to me seems a mix between blue and orange with an extremely toxic blue government and army. Little Green in it since they do allow LGBT and stuff but not much. I heard they are also somewhat racist towards darker skin Jews (like the Ethiopian sterilizing thingy) and Palestinian Arabs. The settlers are definetly blue religious' fanatics since they use their holy books to justify devilry, classic stuff. Just because a country is above red does not mean they are not capable of genocide, ethnic cleansing and horrible war crimes. Ethnic cleansing, which Israel is defiantly doing (I literally sent sources of what their ministers want) is a blue activity. Bombing of civilians can happen both in Blue and Orange. I am still unsure whether there is genocide happening in Gaza right now, but definately genocidal actions have been happening like collective punishment. Red is characterized by "barbaric" type of violence. For example cutting heads, burning people alive etc. I have not seen many reports from the IDF doing such stuff. It is usually either shooting people or bombing them. Red would be Mongolian hordes or Japan in Asia (Rape of Nanking etc). Blue would be Nazi Germany and to some extent the USSR. However I feel like Israel has a deep rooted blue component since its foundation. Being accused of stealing land by all its neighboors and fighting wars for decades while being called a theft has caused them as a society to fundamentally see Palestinians as lesser. Otherwise the guilt would be too big and they would crumble as a country. This view of Palestinians as "uncivilized beasts" is how blue sees red (leo made a video about this). If Israel was truly green, it would feel sorry for Palestinians, see them as victims. That is how Green sees Red. As victims, sometimes a bit too naively. This is how I see them (I consider myself mostly Green with some orange) and that causes me to side with them hardcore on this war. Although I would not put all Palestinians as red. I think Hamas is definately a hardcore toxic Red and maybe some people in Gaza that support Hamas fully are red but I think most of them have a lot of blue in them. Especially the ones in the West Bank I would put mostly blue. We have a clash of two blue societies and that causes so much hatred. Blue against blue is the worst combination when it comes to solving conflicts. Two mules. @Nivsch Would like also your output on this text since I wrote a lot. I was being facetious to the other guy, just seeing lots of distorted and inaccurate takes and weaponizing Spiral Dynamics to reverse justify the evil actions of one egoic nation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 @kenway 6 minutes ago, kenway said: 1 hour ago, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke to the nation. Damn, that's a tired looking face, maybe tired of all thee self BS he's told himself. Can't argue with that, if I'm his soul I'd wanna leave the body too, GET ME OUTTA HERE! FREE ME FROM THE LIES I TELL MYSELF ON THE DAILY!! Also, interesting video, always nice to see politicians squirm: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 I'll say this again, to be clear, for both the pro Palestinians and the pro Israeli, both you lot don't like HAMAs right? Don't like stage blue to red terrorists right? IMO, USA and western countries like UK for example fucked up here, choosing to leave it to IDF and Israel to sort out HAMMAs in West Bank and mostly in Gaza, leaving them to being too aggressive and killing way more women and children and destroying buildings and denying them water per HAMMAs fighter. So IMO the fuck up started when USA/UK and other countries allied with Israel didn't get militarily involved, what should have happened is a coastal base close to Gaza and West Bank. Military presence from other countries nearby would have, and asking pro Israel people here, would have helped out a bit more, and pro Palestinians here, because of outside military presence that's not IDF, would have deterred IDF from bombing too many buildings no? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 I asked several people in this thread:- 1 Palestinian = 1 Israeli ... Correct? None of the Israelis answered. The correct answer is this: 1 Israeli = 1 Palestinian. Now here is a video of Nelson Mandela. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 @Raze 4 minutes ago, Raze said: Give that man a medal of honor, for getting beat up here and there for just peacefully protesting. Busted up sun glasses and shirt, what's next? 😁 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 10 (edited) Edited January 11 by Raze Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 11 ICJ Hearing being broadcast now from the Hague (United Nations Official Livestream):- https://webtv.un.org/en/asset/k11/k11gf661b3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 11 (edited) 2 hours ago, kenway said: ICJ Hearing being broadcast now from the Hague (United Nations Official Livestream):- https://webtv.un.org/en/asset/k11/k11gf661b3 Al Jazeera are live streaming it on YouTube for those that prefer YouTube. When we witness isolated statements of intent and footage of death and destruction separately it stings but doesn’t paralyse the way it does when it’s shown compiled together the way the South African case presents it - almost like a tranquilliser to your moral compass that could wake anyone with heart and good conscience out of apathy. May justice and peace prevail. Edited January 11 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 11 (edited) 37 minutes ago, zazen said: Al Jazeera are live streaming it on YouTube also. According to him: If the courte will aqcuit Israel, then Israel will continue "murdering". Which mean - If the courte will be in the favor of Israel then the court is Lying. In other words the courte will be right only if it will be by MY side. Whether its option 1 or 2, the consequences will still be "Israel is a devil". Surprise. He is preparing the ground for his win-win 😃 What a clever engineering work. Edited January 11 by Nivsch 🌻 Stage Yellow emerges when Green starts to have tolerance and respect to the variety of views within HIMSELF. Israelis here? Let me know! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 11 (edited) 19 hours ago, Raze said: Valid points. Especially the second guy. The first one was too vague in his story. Fair enough, IDF, just as every western military, has its corruptions that implies a developmental need and still long way to go. There are a lot of problems within the military system that have to be addressed. The palestinian terror, and the deep fear it causes in the hearts of the Israelis obviously cause them to dehumanize the other side and I am sure it affects also the military behaviour. Then yeah, right. Having said all of that, we have to not get confused, and to not fall into the game of fake "symmetry" between the sides. Israelis (with a radical minority exception) have no desire to do anything to their neighbors as long as they are safe and not provoked. Israel wanted peace and offered peace so many times and been rejected. Thousands of Gazans been let to work here in Israel out of a good faith that it will make everybody more moderate including hamas, while invested 5 Billion shekels (~1.5 Billion dollars) on the defense smart fence, which didn't help. Israel thought, that the technology will make the wars unnecessary. Israel was wrong. Edited January 11 by Nivsch 🌻 Stage Yellow emerges when Green starts to have tolerance and respect to the variety of views within HIMSELF. Israelis here? Let me know! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
