New War In Israel / Gaza

[Lyubov]

4 hours ago, zazen said:

Besides the details, doesn’t this whole conflict basically boil down to when Israel was created, how it was created, and how it currently exists.

Israel was established during a time when nationalism was popular but colonialism wasn’t. It was a humanitarian cause done on the back of European atrocities to the Jews culminating in the Holocaust - it was colonial power with the entitled colonial mindset which aided its establishment.  British colonial interests married to a humanitarian one. The first Zionist bank established was named the ‘Jewish Colonial Trust’ - the endeavour was supported by the ‘Palestine Jewish Colonization Association’ which willed its land assets to todays Jewish National Fund that which serves as a global fundraiser for Israeli settlement expansion.

The right to self determination and national consciousness came into the world, fine - but this doesn’t mean the right to self determination at the expense of dominating another group. The Palestinian locals were expected (without consultation) to give away a majority share of their land (56% in the partition plan) to a minority of recently arrived settlers who had been there at most 20 years and only made up a third of the population.

If Israel’s creation had occurred this way a few decades earlier it would have encountered less resistance and condemnation as it does in modern times as back then might was right. The few nations that remain today (Anglosphere) from colonisation developed over a much larger span of time - multiple decades to centuries and during a time where strength was respected and accepted once it had established itself over weakness.

Israel faces ongoing conflict and condemnation due to its perceived artificial creation and its ongoing occupation and subjugation of the inhabitants unlike states that organically evolve more naturally over time due to the geographic, political and cultural situation of the land and people. Remaining states that started as colonies do so by integrating the locals in a democracy. Israel wasn’t a grassroots movement so much as it was a top down implant. People from elsewhere revived a dormant language (Hebrew) used mostly in the context of religion for their newly formed nation, claimed it as their native tongue and tied it to their ancestral land. This creation was not in harmony with the region's natural circumstances and naturally caused disruption as it was thrust on already existing people for which it had little context or receptivity.  

Would it be correct then to say the project of Israel was a unnatural foreign imposition done in such a rapid space of time - in a time when colonialism was dying and in a world which now rejects any remains of it including the remaining colonial mindset that entitles one to take another's land and subjugate any locals resistance to this, which then gaslights this resistance as terrorism and any criticism as racist. The region still feels the shockwaves of Israel's inception and the locals are still undergoing oppressive dispossession till today.

I would agree with your assessment here. I think Israel is very much seen as  artificial to many. It is a unique outlier when it comes to state building and the formation of a nation into a state. It has the colonial element of the British who oversaw that region after the Ottomans. The British didn’t really care about the local populations or how their mandates and whatnot would cause complex issues for the true locals of the region. Keep in mind there were Palestinians there through British rule and for several 100s of years prior, all through  the Ottoman Empire. Nations prior to the modern concept of state were much looser in definition and often had fewer political aspirations and desires to build countries. This is probably the biggest lie that comes from Israel. The people there have this totally bullshit narrative that they are entitled to the land there because the people they claim as their “ancestors” once lived there but were forcibly removed. Keep in mind this happened like 1000+ years ago during Roman times and a couple hundred years after. It’s just completely asinine garbage. Hebrew was a dead language with little connection to the modern Israel apart form it being historically a Jewish language. The land was given to refugees of WWII and there is a humanitarian element to it as well since it served western interests to have an ally in the Middle East. There was also wealthy backers who identified as Jewish and wanted to build their own state. Israel’s formation is complex to say the least and it is comprised of  humanitarian effort, western geopolitical interests, colonialism, ethnic jewish nation building and of course plenty of lies about the whole narrative of the country. I would definitely say modern states like the USA and Brazil were much more organic in terms of forming into what they are today.

[Lyubov]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

95% of the Israelis are just want to live in their borders and thats all, as long as they aren't provoked severely.

What you fail to see is the bigger picture. Looking through a bamboo shoot it’s easy to see Israel as this country under attack but it exists entirely through colonialism and the displacement and destruction of the true ancestral inhabitants of the region who lived there for over 1000+ years before Jewish refugees from Europe showed up backed by western interests. This wasn’t that long ago either. Only 70 years or so. Many of the people who were displaced and had their homes and land stolen are still alive. 

[Danioover9000]

   Now I wonder what Daniel Schmachtenberger, Jamie Wheel, John Vervaeke, Iain McGilchrist, and some who are mostly stage yellow in their thinking will have to say about this Israel/Palestine conflict and how it would effect the whole world? So far not a signal from those intellectual thinkers, I guess they don't want to get canceled and censored huh?

Edited January 9 by Danioover9000

[kenway]

 

Zionists disguised as Arabs blowing up buildings. Hmmmm.... this could catch on.

 

 

[Lyubov]

There will not be a resolution to this conflict until many of the citizens of Israel come to terms with the fact that their entire state is built largely on lies. It would be one thing if they were honest and acknowledged they are a western creation, but the entire thing keeping everything together I s the deeper dishonesty about how they have this god given mandate (funny enough it started with the British mandate) to live on and rule this land that is now called Israel. 

Imagine if we all just rolled up and demanded Ethiopia cause humans apparently come from there? 

The modern Israeli is over 1000 years separated from this land and the modern Israel citizen and Jewish diaspora have genetic similarities with Europeans, not anyone who has inhabited Israel for the last 1900 years. 

Edited January 9 by Lyubov

[Danioover9000]

@Lyubov

5 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

There will not be a resolution to this conflict until many of the citizens of Israel come to terms with the fact that their entire state is built largely on lies. It would be one thing if they were honest and acknowledged they are a western creation, but the entire thing keeping everything together I s the deeper dishonesty about how they have this god given mandate (funny enough it started with the British mandate) to live on and rule this land that is now called Israel. 

Imagine if we all just rolled up and demanded Ethiopia cause humans apparently come from there? 

The modern Israeli is over 1000 years separated from this land and the modern Israel citizen and Jewish diaspora have genetic similarities with Europeans, not the anyone who has inhabited Israel for the last 1900 years. 

   True.

[kenway]

Miko Peled, son of Israeli General Mattityahu Peled, speaking about the Israeli Army - October 1, 2012.

[lina]

On 1/7/2024 at 4:49 AM, Merkabah Star said:

Yes, he does support it as genocide. I just listened to him on Glenn greenwalds podcast, I will post it here when it’s uploaded onto YouTube, he said that he is being careful about his wording. Maybe for legal reasons?

I've just seen it now, thank you for sharing the link. 

[lina]

7 hours ago, zazen said:

Besides the details, doesn’t this whole conflict basically boil down to when Israel was created, how it was created, and how it currently exists.

Good post. I think it's also worth noting that this conflict is unique because the damage has always been largely inflicted on the civilian population, more than the ruling party. It's not just a matter of a stronger military conquering another piece of land to rule, like the British or Ottoman rule, so the the Palestinians should just accept it and let go as some people say. It's different because it has directly impacted the life of every Palestinian whether through experiencing displacement, loss of home and land, murder, injury, imprisonment and the constant threat of culture and identity erasure. That's why it's  not a simple task to convince Palestinians to stop resisting. To them it's personal and expecting them to become Buddha-like and let it go is just unrealistic. 

I think this also adds another dimension to why peace deals have been unpopular as they failed to directly compensate the civilian population whether through the right of return or offering reparations. 

Edited January 9 by lina

[Nivsch]

@zazen Nothing is good enough for the Palestinians. Even when many countries were mediates in the negotiations including Russia and the Arab League. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapolis_Conference

They just know that if they agree a deal, it mean the acceptance of Israel and the Jews right to settle here in an independent state.

Their true goal is to diminish Israel completely.

Edited January 9 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

8 hours ago, Lila9 said:

how can such people be trusted with a state?

https://www.ynetnews.com/magazine/article/hypel11uu6

Would you trust terrorists who are capable of this? Would you allow them more power, given they are passionate about killing you and are living near you, your children, family, and friends?

People genuinely seeking peace don't behave in such a manner. They don't attack Israeli civilians and start war out of nowhere. 

+1 🧡

Peace isn't their interest. Peace isn't their motivation in life. Their life meaning isn't about to just live in a functional country. Not at all.

Israel is like a short circuit gets in the way of the Islamic fundamental point of view having its roots many centuries ago. I will try to find an english version of the interesting interview I heard from a mediteranean expert his claims and perspective are really worth considering.

Edited January 9 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

20 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen Nothing is good enough for the Palestinians. Even when many countries were mediates in the negotiations including Russia and the Arab League. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapolis_Conference

They just know that if they agree a deal, it mean the acceptance of Israel and the Jews right to settle here in an independent state.

Their true goal is to diminish Israel completely.

This is true.

[kenway]

I'm sorry for the Israelis that have been killed as a consequence of this conflict, but it needs to be seen within proper context.

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch @Nivsch

39 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen Nothing is good enough for the Palestinians. Even when many countries were mediates in the negotiations including Russia and the Arab League. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapolis_Conference

They just know that if they agree a deal, it mean the acceptance of Israel and the Jews right to settle here in an independent state.

Their true goal is to diminish Israel completely.

   According you, nothing is good enough for you, you're just inserting assumptions to the Palestinian side here.

   They just knew if they accept a deal they accept Israel and the Jews right to settle in Gaza and West Bank, as an independent state is an assumption you're shoe horning to the Palestinians here. 

   Again, another assumption from you, you're projecting the Palestinian's goals as diminishing Israel, when it could be the return of lands Israel took from them, so?

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

31 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

+1 🧡

Peace isn't their interest. Peace isn't their motivation in life. Their life meaning isn't about to just live in a functional country. Not at all.

Israel is like a short circuit gets in the way of the Islamic fundamental point of view having its roots many centuries ago. I will try to find an english version of the interesting interview I heard from a mediteranean expert his claims and perspective are really worth considering.

   Another bunch of guesses not supported by evidence. 

[Danioover9000]

@kenway

2 hours ago, kenway said:

Miko Peled, son of Israeli General Mattityahu Peled, speaking about the Israeli Army - October 1, 2012.

   This is damning.

[hundreth]

15 minutes ago, kenway said:

I'm sorry for the Israelis that have been killed as a consequence of this conflict, but it needs to be seen within proper context.

Everything needs to be seen with context.

What happens when two sides with historical and religious ties to the region who hate each other and have been fighting for centuries spills into modern times? This is what happens.

The world tries to pigeon hole the story into a simplistic good guy / bad guy narrative. Whichever suits you depending on where you're standing. They're just innocent Palestinians, 100% victims who are akin to the Jews in Nazi Germany. They have no agency in war. Or... these are all terrorists and there are no Palestinian people. 

Both groups have an underlying religious and zealot like foundation now. They don't care about your arbitrary time cutoff of when it's ok to conquer a land. They don't want peace and coexistence. They want the land.

When one side doesn't budge, the other side digs in even harder. It's an endless cycle.

[Nivsch]

19 minutes ago, hundreth said:

They don't care about your arbitrary time cutoff of when it's ok to conquer a land. They don't want peace and coexistence. They want the land.

+1 ❤

I agree also with the rest but this part is worth emphasizing.

It also worth emphasize that Israel, as oppose to the palesinians, has shown very serious desire for peace over the years and there was always one side who rejected all of its proposals.

This is true though that the deep right wing in Israel is also problematic and makes the process harder, but still not even close to the degree the palestinians screw up the process again and again.

Edited January 9 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

50 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Nivsch

   Another bunch of guesses not supported by evidence. 

Quite a lot of supported evidence have been accumulated throghout the years from the 1920's until today.

Edited January 9 by Nivsch

[kenway]

8 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Everything needs to be seen with context.

 

Agreed.

 

8 minutes ago, hundreth said:

What happens when two sides with historical and religious ties to the region who hate each other and have been fighting for centuries spills into modern times? This is what happens.

 

Maybe true in a general sense, but that's not an accurate reflection of the variables in this instance. Prior to the advent of political zionism, ordinary civilians in the region lived in relative harmony irrespective of whether they were Jews, Arabs, Muslims, Christians. It was only really in the 1920s and theoretical zionism started to get real that the problems began.

Ze'ev Jabotinsky writing in the Ha'aretz Daily in 1923:-

".... Settlement can thus develop under the protection of a force that is not dependent on the local population, behind an IRON WALL which they will be powerless to break down. ....a voluntary agreement is just not possible. As long as the Arabs preserve a gleam of hope that they will succeed in getting rid of us, nothing in the world can cause them to relinquish this hope, precisely because they are not rubble but a living people. And a living people will be ready to yield on such fateful issues only when they give up all hope of getting rid of the Alien Settlers. Only then will extremist groups with their slogan 'No, never' lose their influence, and only then their influence be transferred to more moderate groups. And only then will the moderates offer suggestions for compromise. Then only will they begin bargaining with us on practical matters, such as guarantees against PUSHING THEM OUT, and equality of civil, and national rights."

This hardcore quasifascist Zionist mindset would go on to define Israel, from its genesis right through to the current (wow-didn't-see-this-coming) genocide.

 

8 minutes ago, hundreth said:

The world tries to pigeon hole the story into a simplistic good guy / bad guy narrative. Whichever suits you depending on where you're standing.

 

Most people aren't born into this world hating Jews nor hating Palestinians. if you happen to be within the sphere of influence of the general area, then sure, there is a conversation to be had about the opinions you hold relative to "where you're standing". The problem is that many people's opinions on Israel/Palestine come from a position of neutrality. And generally, seen through that neutral lens, it becomes obvious that Israel is not just a little bit mischievous, but actually very very very fucking evil.