New War In Israel / Gaza

[Devin]

Just now, hundreth said:

Iran is also held in check by Israel.

Time may tell a different narrative.

[kenway]

45 minutes ago, hundreth said:

"Hamas is not a state and Israel is legally still the occupying power in Gaza. You don't have the right to self-defence against a territory you occupy."

Statements like these are nothing more than playing semantic games and intellectualization gone too far. 

 

The counter to that would be the legal disposition that the occupier has no right to invoke genocide, whereas the occupied has the right of defense against the occupier.

This isn't my argument, by the way, but one that is frequently made.

It's also worth pointing out that the phrase "Israel has the right to defend itself" is itself something of a semantic game, bordering on the precipice of psychological gaslighting.

In truth, "rights" are somewhat phantomic. If we're talking about the United Nations, Israel stop listening to them a long long time ago.

[Karmadhi]

@Nivsch Well you will not be convinced until Israel says it themselves which it will never happen so I will stop this conversation.

Until you start trusting international organizations and even western media instead of historical proven liars.

[kenway]

Again, from "Distinction and Loss of Civilian Protection in International Armed Conflicts" (Yoram Dinstein):-

The principle of distinction excludes not only deliberate attacks against civilians, but also indiscriminate attacks, i.e., instances in which the attacker does not target any specific military objective (due either to indifference as to whether the ensuing casualties will be civilians or combatants or, alternatively, to inability to control the effects of the attack). A leading example is the launching by Iraq of Scud missiles against military objectives located in or near residential areas in Israel in 1991, notwithstanding the built-in imprecision of the Scuds which made accuracy in acquiring military objectives virtually impossible (and, in the event, no military objective was struck)."

 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by kenway

[zazen]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

They are not.

Unless you have a proof of an intentional killing of cilivlians and you don't have that.

Just from yesterday. Who knows - he could be a comedian or I’m just cherry picking.

How explicit do words and action need to be to establish intent? I can understand war and casualties being a natural part of it but their have been plenty of dehumanising statements from Israel which show that intentional killing could easily be believed to occur.

At its best, Israel may not be targeting civilians but they don’t care enough not to harm them in targeting Hamas - at its worst, Hamas aren’t the target but the excuse for ethnic cleansing and claiming land a big proportion of Israel feel entitled to.

 

[hundreth]

16 minutes ago, kenway said:

The counter to that would be the legal disposition that the occupier has no right to invoke genocide, whereas the occupied has the right of defense against the occupier.

This isn't my argument, by the way, but one that is frequently made.

I wouldn't even disagree with that.

Quote

It's also worth pointing out that the phrase "Israel has the right to defend itself" is itself something of a semantic game, bordering on the precipice of psychological gaslighting.

In truth, "rights" are somewhat phantomic. If we're talking about the United Nations, Israel stop listening to them a long long time ago.

I don't see how. "Israel has the right to defend itself" means it should be able to protect it's citizens. There's nothing especially outrageous about that.

Yeah, Israel has stopped listening and you see a lot of the discourse around the U.N. not condemning the Oct 7 attacks. The language around it matters. 

[Nivsch]

@zazen Criminals there are everywhere. Isolated cases of criminal activity when you have 10,000s soldiers operate there will always occure.

This doesn't prove anything, sorry.

By that logic, Canada is a murderous toxic masculine tyranni because sometimes women are being murdered by their husbands there, just like in everywhere else.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

11 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen Criminals there are everywhere. Isolated cases of criminal activity when you have 10,000s soldiers operate there will always occure.

This doesn't prove anything, sorry.

By that logic, Canada is a murderous toxic masculine tyranni because sometimes women are being murdered by their husbands there, just like in everywhere else.

As Jews & Israelis we need to be careful. As you say, we have these incidents that don't reflect the greater vision or plan. If we don't do anything to stop this from happening, we're allowing it to happen. And given everything that happened, there's little space for compassion in the current landscape. But we need to be very careful.

[Nivsch]

40 minutes ago, zazen said:

 their have been plenty of dehumanising statements from Israel which show that intentional killing could easily be believed to occur.

I can admit about myself, that my anger about the Gazan's support of hamas and their celebrations after oct 7th made me also think about them differently.

Not to mention that those poor children are poisoned and brainwashed by hamas for the rest of their lives.

Why isn't the world shaken by that?

If your village was under pogrom and your friends were taken to behind the border being held with a gun to their head you would also say nasty things about the other side.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

@hundreth I agree with you but the empathy to the other side is reduced to approximately zero when nobody here is willing to understand our side.

[kenway]

A massive aerial bombardment targeting a densely populated area where half of the population consists of children, constitutes a violation of the principles of international humanitarian law. There is no difference between deliberate and indiscriminate.

This includes hospitals, schools, refugee camps, and residential areas.

Therefore, the current Israeli regime is engaged in persistent warcrimes. All that remains is by what mechanism Netanyahu (et al) can be delivered to face trial for such crimes (i.e the Hague). If that is not possible, then the United Nations is clearly not fit for purpose and we will need a massive reboot of the entire concept of International Law, and in particular, it's policing.

If that is not achieved, then everything will get very messy for everybody.

[Nivsch]

@kenway hamas strategy is all about being assimilated between civilians.

You can suggest better ways to annihilate this terror organization if you have.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

16 minutes ago, kenway said:

All that remains is by what mechanism Netanyahu (et al) can be delivered to face trial for such crimes (i.e the Hague). If that is not possible, then the United Nations is clearly not fit for purpose and we will need a massive reboot of the entire concept of International Law, and in particular, it's policing.

If that is not achieved, then everything will get very messy for everybody.

Has any world leader been convicted for war crimes in modern times? Netanyahu is a boy scout compared to some of the psychos walking this earth and leading nations in recent times. 

But of course, everything with Israel will be amplified.

[kenway]

@Nivsch

You ask whether there are better ways to annihilate this terror organisation. I would argue that anything is better than a civilian genocide.

It's like going to the doctor for a headache only for the doctor to repeatedly hit you over the head with a hammer.... and for him to then ask: "You have a better way?"

I don't know how to destroy Hamas. But my suspicion is that the Israeli far-right benefit from Hamas' existence more than they suffer from it. There is a curious dimension to both Hamas' history, and indeed the Oct 7th attacks, that deserve proper investigation, and I wouldn't exclude that from any strategy.

[kenway]

6 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Has any world leader been convicted for war crimes in modern times?

How are you defining modern times? Nuremberg, Milosovic, Saddam Hussein all occured within the past 100 years.

I understand your point though.

9 minutes ago, hundreth said:

But of course, everything with Israel will be amplified.

That's because many people in the West regard Israel as a fellow Western country, and therefore should be held to the same standards as any other Western country. Don't forget millions of Europeans and Americans protested against their own governments in regard to many many conflicts, not least Vietnam and Iraq. 

Also... occupation, ethnic nationalism and genocide tends to piss a lot of people off.

[zazen]

@Nivsch

People don’t go around saying they openly want to kill unless their psychopaths.

A certain line of logic demands the most concrete black and white definition of words to be applied. Like saying Palestinians aren’t occupied because Israel left Gaza but they control majority of their life or like Israel saying they want Gazans to ‘voluntarily’ move out as if they have no responsibility in displacing them by making the place unliveable.

The same reasoning is used to say the nakba was mostly a ‘voluntary’ exodus - like military groups massacring Palestinians wasn’t the catalyst that spread enough fear in them to leave. As if some Palestinians wanted a change of scenery to go from the beach to the hills and vice versa and just move around for the sake of it.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

@zazen You are free to think whatever you want.

I can cherry pick five cases of murder everyday in Canada and flood the forum with them and you will be sure that canada is a medieval place.

Your critisism is not really fair and decent becasue you take isolated cases and project them on Israel as allegedly this is the real character of Israel, which is far from the truth as west is far from the east.

when pretending to take extreme cases and from them critisize an entire country, the critisim must be taken in a proper proportions and relative to realistic outcomes in a western world average context. Otherwise the critism will be misleading and hypocrite.

[StarStruck]

How credible will Jews be when they commemorate the Jewish holocaust every year when they are committing a Palestinian holocaust as we speak. Israel has opened pandora's box. 

[Nivsch]

The Positive Link Tree 🌲 🌅 😃

some notes:

1. This link tree will be relatively short and will apear in an only one concentrated message per day or per couple of days, to not flood the thread,

2. This is NOT aimed to do an IDF propaganda. idf does make mistakes of course also in Gaza, and have to learn from them and develop himself.

3. However, sometimes an unjust skewed picture that is built from a cherry picking strategy has to be balanced out by a counter picture, even if you can claim it is also cherry picked.

4. I will try to not only show IDF goods here but also and even more than that, to show an authentic picture as much as I can of our society.

5. There is no desire to push an agenda to anybody here, but just to balance out what I think and feel as quite unjust and distorted picture being created here and to let everybody to judge the situation by themselves from a more balanced and stable position 🙂

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/society/1701708399-survey-shows-almost-half-of-arab-israelis-support-idf-response-to-hamas-in-gaza

Edited December 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

8 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

How credible will Jews be when they commemorate the Jewish holocaust every year when they are committing a Palestinian holocaust as we speak. Israel has opened pandora's box. 

Yeah this "holocaust" speak has become very fashionable. Outsiders like to mental masturbate to Jews committing a "holocaust" but we know even at our worst it's extremely different.