New War In Israel / Gaza

[Minini]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Because they are in charge of that area of the world.

The US is not going to stop this war.

Okay but at least people have the duty to speak out. We shouldn't normalize devilry and selfishness. Holding so much power shouldn't make one immune to criticism or condemnation. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Minini

[Minini]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

I don't think its a matter of 'wanting' for Israel but a matter of 'needing'.

The only one who wants constant war is Hamas. 

sorry that's pure delusion. Are you one of those people who think this right wing gov desire nothing but peace and love and has no expansionist plans? 

[Leo Gura]

25 minutes ago, Minini said:

Okay but at least people have the duty to speak out.

You're mostly just wasting your time. All this online whining doesn't actually solve any of the world's problems.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Minini]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

You're mostly just wasting your time. All this online whining doesn't actually solve any of thr world's problems.

Might not solve this problem right now but there has been global shift in the public opinion regarding Palestine because a lot of people decided to speak out. Staying silent and being passive is not good either. 

[Leo Gura]

If all that was required for world peace was online silence and the end of whining, we would never have world peace.

You guys are wasting a lot of your time debating stuff which has zero productive value. That's progressives in a nutshell. All your moral outrage is predictable, robotic, brainless, and useless.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Minini]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If all that was required for world peace was online silence and the end of whining, we would never have world peace.

You guys are wasting a lot of your time debating stuff which has zero productive value. That's progressives in a nutshell. All your moral outrage is predictable, robotic, brainless, and useless.

Then what do you suggest people do if they want to create change? 

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Minini said:

Then what do you suggest people do if they want to create change? 

I don't really have an answer.

The Israeli Palestine issue is not gonna be resolved peacefully at this point. Neither side is conscious enough for that.

The best you can do about it is not to waste your own mental energy joining the fight.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Minini]

23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The Israeli Palestine issue is not gonna be resolved peacefully at this point. Neither side is conscious enough for that.

The problem the violent solution will not solve this conflict either and will only perpetuate more hatred and violence .. We had hope that by creating pressure on the more powerful and conscious side, and with the help of external mediators there could be a chance for peace..  

23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The best you can do about it is not to waste your own mental energy joining the fight.

Does that mean you don't think there's a value in the idea of people becoming activists for change?

Edited December 29, 2023 by Minini

[Miguel1]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The best you can do about it is not to waste your own mental energy joining the fight.

This.

Let go of things you can't control and focus on your life purpose. That's how you will help solve the problems of humankind the best.

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

If all that was required for world peace was online silence and the end of whining, we would never have world peace.

You guys are wasting a lot of your time debating stuff which has zero productive value. That's progressives in a nutshell. All your moral outrage is predictable, robotic, brainless, and useless.

1. If that was true Israel’s government wouldn’t spend money on online units to correct the record.

2. By that logic the entire online political forum here and everywhere is pointless and everyone should stop talking 

[Hardkill]

57 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't really have an answer.

The Israeli Palestine issue is not gonna be resolved peacefully at this point. Neither side is conscious enough for that.

The best you can do about it is not to waste your own mental energy joining the fight.

Then why is most of the whole world calling for a ceasefire?

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

2. By that logic the entire online political forum here and everywhere is pointless and everyone should stop talking 

There is a point to discuss issues to get a deeper understanding of it. But once you got that, then it's time to move on.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

9 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Its scary how you pro Israelis conviently ignore all the horrible footage of mistreatment of Palestinians coming out of Gaza daily. 
Imagine back in the day when all the information you had was your local biases newspaper. 
Scary…

When people you care about will be held in Gaza for 80 days with a gun to their head after your village went through a pogrom, then a displacement of Gazans from their homes won't be exactly a top priority of your concerns.

[kenway]

31 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

When people you care about will be held in Gaza for 80 days with a gun to their head after your village went through a pogrom, then a displacement of Gazans from their homes won't be exactly a top priority of your concerns.

Comments like this are depressing.

People you care about? As opposed to people you don't care about?

I will never understand how the phrase "people you care about" can be used in this manner.

Don't you understand that when you write "people you care about" you are also saying that there are people you don't care about?

You clearly don't understand love, and it's depressing.

 

[zazen]

Some good discussion the last few pages. As Leo has mentioned it can lead to wasted energy when it devolves to outrage and bad faith.
 

Understanding is beneficial up to the point it leads to active change in the right direction in the form of a vote (political power) or a purchase (financial power) - you can vote or finance the wrong things (more war and elite capture). That necessitates making a moral judgement on what is more right or wrong which I think (wrongly perhaps?) is fine - spirituality doesn’t mean resigning our moral conscience because we see all sides to a issue and are above humanity sitting in a lofty place of detached enlightened - pluralism isn’t necessarily neautralism.

Understanding all sides doesn’t mean standing with all of them - and in the case that both seem equally right or valid to the extent of causing a moral quandary - one can understand that both sides need to stand together elsewhere in a new unitive position to improve the situation towards peace and prosperity.

In the past we didn’t have the speed of information transfer we do today, we couldn’t talk to the other side to understand them which affects change in each other, today we can. Though we can still clash or echo chamber ourselves at least the option to step out of it or jailbreak our biases exists more than ever which makes forum discussion valuable.

We can at least understand that the base instincts and incentives to survive trump intelligence and conciousness. That if we can’t engage the warring sides intelligence or conscience we can at least use our intelligence and good conscience which isn’t drowned in emotional, reflexive and instinctual revenge to pull their instincts and incentives in a better direction in the form of political votes and finance. If opinion didn’t matter propaganda wouldn’t be valued or used - if money didn’t matter anti-BDS or boycott laws wouldn’t be put in place.

It’s because the world is more globalised and connected that we can exert more influence. On a political level cutting diplomatic ties, aid, imposing sanctions. On a financial level big and small buying from certain businesses and boycotting others or scrapping trade deals and reorienting supply chains - all have a level of Influence.

Edited December 29, 2023 by zazen

[Minini]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There is a point to discuss issues to get a deeper understanding of it. But once you got that, then it's time to move on.

6 hours ago, Miguel1 said:

Let go of things you can't control and focus on your life purpose. That's how you will help solve the problems of humankind the best.

I do understand real change starts by everyone focusing on developing his own self, but at the same time we still live in a world that has people and requires our interactions. Why can't someone focus on his own growth, and at the same time speak out against atrocities that are actively happening to hopefully set standards for society on collective level? If someone had family in Gaza right now they would want other people to speak out for them because that's humanity, we might not be able to make solid change in politics, but the least we can do is show support to the side that is heavily disempowered. Imagine facing this all alone and people are watching you while being silent, how would you feel after this? The people living there said it themselves that the global support they're seeing is their only silver lining. 

 

[Nivsch]

@kenway What I understand is that you and most of the people here care about the palestinians point of view much much more than the Isrealis point of view. That is for sure and beyond any doubt.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@kenway I understand that you care about the palestinian's point of view much much more than the Isrealis. That is what I understand for sure. Behind any doubt.

 

Bro what if the real point of view that cares about Israelis is that this war only leads to more future threats, terrorism and anti-semitism?

From a article:

“Did you know that since the United States brought its “war on terror” to Africa, terrorist attacks on that continent have increased by 75,000 percent? That’s right: 75, then three zeros, percent. I learned this neat little stat from a new article by journalist Nick Turse, who also notes that “according to the Pentagon, terrorist attacks in the Sahel region alone have resulted in 9,818 deaths — a 42,500% increase.”

People have been documenting the way attempts to bomb terrorism out of existence actually creates more terrorism for many years. In 2010 Professor Robert A Pape wrote an article for Foreign Policy titled “It’s the Occupation, Stupid” about his study with University of Chicago which found that suicide bombings are the result not of Islamic fundamentalism but of foreign military occupations.

Some notable excerpts:

“More than 95 percent of all suicide attacks are in response to foreign occupation.”

“As the United States has occupied Afghanistan and Iraq, which have a combined population of about 60 million, total suicide attacks worldwide have risen dramatically — from about 300 from 1980 to 2003, to 1,800 from 2004 to 2009.”

“Over 90 percent of suicide attacks worldwide are now anti-American.”

“Each month, there are more suicide terrorists trying to kill Americans and their allies in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other Muslim countries than in all the years before 2001 combined. From 1980 to 2003, there were 343 suicide attacks around the world, and at most 10 percent were anti-American inspired. Since 2004, there have been more than 2,000, over 91 percent against U.S. and allied forces in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other countries.”

[zazen]

6 hours ago, Nivsch said:

When people you care about will be held in Gaza for 80 days with a gun to their head after your village went through a pogrom, then a displacement of Gazans from their homes won't be exactly a top priority of your concerns.

Many Palestinians have been held by Israel which may make justice and resistance their top priority.

 

From wiki:

On 11 December 2012, the office of then-Prime Minister Salam Fayyad stated that since 1967, 800,000 Palestinians, or roughly 20% of the total population and 40% of the male population, had been imprisoned by Israel at one point in time. About 100,000 had been held in administrative detention. According to Palestinian estimates, 70% of Palestinian families have had one or more family members sentenced to jail terms in Israeli prisons as a result of activities against the occupation.

From human rights watch:

The majority have never been convicted of a crime, including more than 2,000 of them being held in administrative detention, in which the Israeli military detains a person without charge or trial. Such detention can be renewed indefinitely based on secret information, which the detainee is not allowed to see. Administrative detainees are held on the presumption that they might commit an offense at some point in the future. Israeli authorities have held children, human rights defenders and Palestinian political activists, among others, in administrative detention, often for prolonged periods.

The large number of Palestinian detainees is primarily the result of separate criminal justice systems Israeli authorities maintain in the occupied territory. The nearly 3 million Palestinians who live in the occupied West Bank, excluding East Jerusalem, are ruled by military law and prosecuted in military courts. By contrast, the nearly half a million Israeli settlers in the West Bank are governed under civil and criminal law and tried in Israeli civil courts. Discrimination pervades every aspect of this system.

Under military law, Palestinians can be held for up to eight days before they must see a judge — and then, only a military judge. Yet, under Israeli law, a person has to be brought before a judge within 24 hours of being arrested, which can be extended to 96 hours when authorized in extraordinary cases.

Palestinians can be jailed for participating in a gathering of merely 10 people without a permit on any issue “that could be construed as political,” while settlers can demonstrate without a permit unless the gathering exceeds 50 people, takes place outdoors and involves “political speeches and statements.”

In short, Israeli settlers and Palestinians live in the same territory, but are tried in different courts under different laws with different due process rights and face different sentences for the same offense. The result is a large and growing number of Palestinians imprisoned without basic due process.

While the law of occupation permits administrative detention as a temporary and exceptional measure, Israel’s sweeping use of administrative detention on the Palestinian population, more than a half-century into an occupation with no end in sight, far exceeds what the law authorizes.

Edited December 29, 2023 by zazen

[Devin]

The endless clamouring is the only method of progress for the Pacifists, it's a slow gruelling method but it does create change, possibly lasting change.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Devin