New War In Israel / Gaza

[Breakingthewall]

10 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Israel can't get million of people even temporarily this is not realistic.

It has all the time he wants to organize it, if he really wants to put an end to Hamas, but it is obvious that he does not want this, since without evacuating Gaza it is impossible, they would have to kill 500 thousand civilians. What Israel wants is what its leaders have said publicly: revenge on human animals, and it's what is happening now. 

[DawnC]

Thank goodness that WW2 didn't occur in today's political landscape. People might draw comparisons between the US and the Nazis based on the higher number of German civilian casualties. A profoundly immature and distorted moral compass. 

[Something Funny]

4 minutes ago, DawnC said:

Thank goodness that WW2 didn't occur in today's political landscape. People might draw comparisons between the US and the Nazis based on the higher number of German civilian casualties. A profoundly immature and distorted moral compass. 

Yeah, thank God, because people might equate a terrorist organisation, which can only ever hope to do sneaky hit and run attacks and does not represent its people with one of the strongest military powers of its time capable of conquering the whole continent.

[DawnC]

4 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Yeah, thank God, because people might equate a terrorist organisation, which can only ever hope to do sneaky hit and run attacks and does not represent its people with one of the strongest military powers of its time capable of conquering the whole continent.

1. If Hamas were indeed more militarily capable, the Israelis would miss the aesthetics of the gas chambers. So will the Israeli Arabs btw, they were butchered in the same manner.

2. Hamas is part of a global threat that is heavily supported by Iran, which includes Hezbollah, large parts of Syria, the Houthis, and other militant groups. These are not kids in a playground. This is a real threat.

I don't think Nazi Germany and Hamas pose the same danger to the world at all. But the moral stance is not that far off in terms of clarity.

[DawnC]

@Something Funny

Don't get me wrong. I have a lot of criticism for Israel and large parts of their society, especially concerning the way they address this conflict. The thing is, it's very easy to get lost in the details of this criticism and miss the larger picture. I mentioned WW2 to emphasize the point that you can criticize the US for Dresden and Hiroshima all you want, but it's a mistake to conflate that with the larger overall picture. Yes, Hamas is not Nazi Germany, but Israel is far from Dresden as well. The accusations are also exaggerated. And the bigger picture is very clear.

Edited November 3, 2023 by DawnC

[Twentyfirst]

1 hour ago, Nabd said:

Literally the worst strategy to eliminate Hamas is to carpet bomb civilians because it doesn't affect Hamas and it gives them even more power but Netanyahu wanna bomb civilians because they dream about ending Gaza and just taking the land.

A much better one would be to send an ultimatum to Qatar to hand over Haniyee and others while taking a lot of prisoners from the west bank to force Hamas to release the prisoners.

Hamas already offered to release all prisoners just for a ceasefire but Israel refuse because it got humiliated by a small terrorist group.

Actually 1 or 2 more of these attacks could cause massive amount of Israelis to leave towards the US or Europe. 

Yeah someone on this thread already posted a video saying that if Hamas built tunnels underground in Israel they would not do carpet bombing (obviously)

[Twentyfirst]

Are only Jewish born people entitled to Jerusalem? Or can anyone start believing the Jewish faith and they are part of that entitlement?

[Twentyfirst]

43 minutes ago, DawnC said:

1. If Hamas were indeed more militarily capable, the Israelis would miss the aesthetics of the gas chambers. So will the Israeli Arabs btw, they were butchered in the same manner.

2. Hamas is part of a global threat that is heavily supported by Iran, which includes Hezbollah, large parts of Syria, the Houthis, and other militant groups. These are not kids in a playground. This is a real threat.

I don't think Nazi Germany and Hamas pose the same danger to the world at all. But the moral stance is not that far off in terms of clarity.

Who said Iran was bad? If they defend Palestine against Israeli war crimes then they seem to be good to me!

[Breakingthewall]

For me, the issue of torture is significant. From the beginning there was talk of babies intentionally burned alive, beheadings of babies, mutilations and torture. Then the government said that it was going to show it publicly and it did not, it showed 45 minutes of recordings to a group of journalists, they did not mention anything about torture, but about civilians being shot, a case of a father who fled with two children and was thrown a grenade, the children survive terrified, the Hamas terrorist takes them to the kitchen and gives them a Cocacola, then the terrified mother arrives and the recording is interrupted, it is terrible but it is not the same as burning children alive or amputating their hands to see how they bleed to death. These stories, spread by the IDF and the government, but which are not supported by images, are lies, since if they were true they would have been spread. The only motivation for spreading these lies is to justify what was planned to be done: genocide. Throwing phosphorus bombs at civilians is genocide, Israel is a criminal state and in a very short time the entire international community will admit this fact.

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

What Israel wants is what its leaders have said publicly: revenge on human animals, and it's what is happening now. 

When cannot handle the complexity of the situation, our brain must pave a shortcut and just blame one side very strongly and make absurd claims about him in order to feel calm again. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Nivsch

[DawnC]

 

4 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Yeah someone on this thread already posted a video saying that if Hamas built tunnels underground in Israel they would not do carpet bombing (obviously)

So the Israelis should treat their own civilians the same way they treat Palestinian civilians? Don't you see the absurdity of that expectation? When has that kind of thinking ever been present in the decision-making of any country in any conflict in world history? You can have criticism about a military tactic, but this expectation is just absurd.

1 minute ago, Twentyfirst said:

Who said Iran was bad? If they defend Palestine against Israeli war crimes then they seem to be good to me!

This is exactly the immature perspective I was talking about. Iran poses a significant danger to freedom, democracy, and humanity, actually. You may have different ways to address this, but the danger is very clear.

[Breakingthewall]

Some points of view from Palestinian 

 

[DawnC]

7 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

For me, the issue of torture is significant. From the beginning there was talk of babies intentionally burned alive, beheadings of babies, mutilations and torture. Then the government said that it was going to show it publicly and it did not, it showed 45 minutes of recordings to a group of journalists, they did not mention anything about torture, but about civilians being shot, a case of a father who fled with two children and was thrown a grenade, the children survive terrified, the Hamas terrorist takes them to the kitchen and gives them a Cocacola, then the terrified mother arrives and the recording is interrupted, it is terrible but it is not the same as burning children alive or amputating their hands to see how they bleed to death. These stories, spread by the IDF and the government, but which are not supported by images, are lies, since if they were true they would have been spread. The only motivation for spreading these lies is to justify what was planned to be done: genocide. Throwing phosphorus bombs at civilians is genocide, Israel is a criminal state and in a very short time the entire international community will admit this fact.

If you dig far enough, you'll find the horrifying videos. To my understanding, it's quite the contrary. The Israeli government doesn't post those videos because they are aware of their responsibility. They understand that the Israeli public would be completely shocked and traumatized, and they want to prevent the public from calling for irresponsible and extreme measures due to strong emotions. The question is, what do you need to see to believe? Don't succumb to conspiracy-like thinking. There are videos and photos out there if you so desire.

[Twentyfirst]

15 minutes ago, DawnC said:

 

So the Israelis should treat their own civilians the same way they treat Palestinian civilians? Don't you see the absurdity of that expectation? When has that kind of thinking ever been present in the decision-making of any country in any conflict in world history? You can have criticism about a military tactic, but this expectation is just absurd.

This is exactly the immature perspective I was talking about. Iran poses a significant danger to freedom, democracy, and humanity, actually. You may have different ways to address this, but the danger is very clear.

Then why pretend in the first place that they care about a peaceful two state solution?

 

Listen. Who is Iran posing a danger to? 

[Nivsch]

6 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Some points of view from Palestinian 

 

Is he from West Bank or Gaza?

I wish we would see more like him.

 

[Twentyfirst]

6 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Is he from West Bank or Gaza?

I wish we would see more like him.

 

Thats literally exactly what we have been saying in this thread but you took it as an attack against Jews 

[Nivsch]

10 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Thats literally exactly what we have been saying in this thread but you took it as an attack against Jews 

What hurts me is that the discussion here blames Israel automatically without doing any little effort to check if there is at all another realistic way to eliminate hamas without causing the amount of casualties we have seen. Because maybe really there is no other way to do that and people here fall prey to what hamas most wanted them to in his propaganda.

[Breakingthewall]

34 minutes ago, DawnC said:

If you dig far enough, you'll find the horrifying videos. To my understanding, it's quite the contrary. The Israeli government doesn't post those videos because they are aware of their responsibility

What horrible videos have you seen? I have read what they showed the journalists and it is horrible but it is not torture. It's possible that there have been, I don't deny it, I'm just interested in knowing the truth about that.

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

What hurts me is that the discussion here blames Israel automatically without doing any little effort to check if there is at all another realistic way to eliminate hamas

If the IDF proposes the evacuation of civilians, but Hamas does not allow it, then it would be obvious that they are trying to minimize civilian casualties. If the IDF cuts off electricity in hospitals and drops phosphorus bombs, it is obvious that this is revenge against civilians.

[Nivsch]

7 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

If the IDF proposes the evacuation of civilians, but Hamas does not allow it, then it would be obvious that they are trying to minimize civilian casualties. 

Thats exactly what IDF did.