New War In Israel / Gaza

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, Danioover9000 said:

@PurpleTree

   Not a joke, this is seriously disappointing. The levels of misinformation. Yes, go and condemn HAMAs, meanwhile sweep under the rug what makes up HAMAs: disenfranchised, oppressed, poor, desperate Palestinians that have no choice but to fight Israel, which makes them open to more radicalization.

And what made up isis and the people that attacked civilians, women children, partygoers in france, germany, belgium etc?

[Scholar]

2 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

True. So let me rephrase that: we have very good evidence to believe that given the options that are available, it would offer the best avenue for massively de-escalating the conflict, and in the long run would offer the best chance at lasting peace for both sides in this conflict.

But this is not true, see the polling data and my post expanding on the idea of naive empathy. This kind of thinking is what adds conflict and harm, because it lacks an understanding of human nature and self-perpetuating dynamics.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Scholar

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

4 minutes ago, Scholar said:

There is a simple mistake in thinking that is occuring here, and leftists have a tendency to fall for this trap:

It is the assumption that once you remove the cause for a dynamic, the dynamic will disappear as well. This is true to some degree, but what is being missed here is that usually what occurs is that the dynamic develops a self-perpetuating mechanism. You can see this all over nature in general, and in relation to social dynamics, we can see this manifesting as cultural attitudes and ideologies.

 

In this case, there is a false assumption that if we remove the conditions which caused frustration and hatred in the gazans/palestinians, that they then will also lose the attitude that are a result of that frustration. But this is far from guaranteed, because at some point the frustration manifests as a cultural attitude that is self-perpetuating. At that point, you can remove the initial causative condition and yet see no change in attitudes as well, in fact it might lead to the opposite, a bolstering of those attitudes. You see this in practice with how stage green interacts with stage red, through naive empathy actually harming the person as a result of not understanding their state of being. This can encourage destructive behaviour, rather than actually help mitigate it.

 

The "Free Palestine" movement is precisely this type of harmful dynamic. It encourages self-righteousness and blind hatred in the victims, causing them to act in ways that will bring more harm to them. There is a version of this that could have been helpful, but the movement is so infested with blind hatred and rage that all this will do is cause more blind hatred and rage.

This is a huge blindspot for stage green.

   So don't protest against humanitarian issues, and not argue against Israel?

Edited October 13, 2023 by Danioover9000

[Scholar]

3 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Scholar

   So don't protest against humanitarian issues?

Protest in such a way as to not cause more harm than good. Blindly screeching free palestine during and after terrorists killed almost 2000 civilians is a sure way to motivate further conflict and self-righteousness on both sides.

 

In fact, this attitude is one factors that contributed to the occurance of World War 2 and the holocaust.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Scholar

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

1 minute ago, Scholar said:

Protest in such a way as to not cause more harm than good. Blindly screeching free palestine during and after terrorists killed almost 2000 civilians is a sure way to motivate further conflict and self-righteousness on both sides.

   Protest in such a way that doesn't put pressure on Israel to stop it's Zionism expansion onto Palestinian territory because that's anti Semitic? What if all peaceful protesting isn't moving Israel's interest and hegemony to occupy all of Palestine, into seeking diplomacy? What's left for Palestinians to do when Israel is actively oppressing Palestinians in Gaza and west bank?

[Breakingthewall]

9 minutes ago, Scholar said:

You see this in practice with how stage green interacts with stage red,

What is terribly humiliating is being on the red stage and that those on the green stage beat you up with one hand. That is what humiliates Muslims on cosmic levels.

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Scholar

   Protest in such a way that doesn't put pressure on Israel to stop it's Zionism expansion onto Palestinian territory because that's anti Semitic? What if all peaceful protesting isn't moving Israel's interest and hegemony to occupy all of Palestine, into seeking diplomacy? What's left for Palestinians to do when Israel is actively oppressing Palestinians in Gaza and west bank?

You are not putting pressure on Israel, you are showcasing your lack of maturity and sensitivity. You are encouraging blind acts of terrorism and you are encouraging blind acts of retaliation.

If you don't know how to protest the oppression of the palestinian people in a mature and intelligent way, then it is better to simply remove yourself from this issue, because your potential to cause harm is greater than your potential to cause peace.

 

[Breakingthewall]

37 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

and that Hamas is an Islamo-fascist organization that would be just as brutal if they were in a comparable position of power to the Israeli state

Well, maybe bit more brutal

[Breakingthewall]

53 minutes ago, zurew said:

You don't know for sure how they would live if Israel didn't exist. But even if I buy into the premise that they would live worse , thats that still won't justify the bad things Israel did against Palestine.

Yeah, The Israelis have blockaded Gaza and appropriated land, after 60 years of conflict with people who want your death. It is something that has happened step by step. Israel has not behaved perfectly, but the Palestinians have never attempted peaceful coexistence. If they had tried, Israel would have accepted. Violence has always played against the Arabs, each violent action has brought loss of rights, but they do not learn, they continue the same, wanting to exterminate those who are much stronger than them. They cannot exterminate Israel, it is a fact, but instead of admitting it, they indoctrinate their children in sterile hatred. What is your future going to be with that negative attitude? the total shit.

[PurpleTree]

I like the term islamo-fascists for the extremists. There should also be a good term for the extremists on the other side

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

I like the term islamo-fascists for the extremists. There should also be a good term for the extremists on the other side

I like it because stage green or whatever hates fascists. But they will defend islamists suppressing women and lgbt (and worse), attacking civilians etc. So i hope the term melts their brains

[DocWatts]

22 minutes ago, Scholar said:

But this is not true, see the polling data and my post expanding on the idea of naive empathy. This kind of thinking is what adds conflict and harm, because it lacks an understanding of human nature and self-perpetuating dynamics.

And what I'm saying is that these polls are being asked in the context of a people who are currently undergoing a highly traumatic experience (being the victims of a genocide). I'm sure if you were somehow able to poll American soldiers over what they thought should happen to Japan while those soldiers were in midst of a death march after falling into captivity of the Japanese military, you'd get similar results to the polls you mentioned.

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

16 minutes ago, Scholar said:

You are not putting pressure on Israel, you are showcasing your lack of maturity and sensitivity. You are encouraging blind acts of terrorism and you are encouraging blind acts of retaliation.

If you don't know how to protest the oppression of the palestinian people in a mature and intelligent way, then it is better to simply remove yourself from this issue, because your potential to cause harm is greater than your potential to cause peace.

 

   My position is better than you Gish galloping to nuance bro, at least I lean to support Palestinians over Israel oppressing them, meanwhile you fake centrism and agnosticism, which results in both siding fallacy between Israel/Palestine when it's clear Israel is at fault for creating this mess in the first place. There are times to play I don't know and be agnostic, but there are times when that can and does enable oppression, google scholar.

[Scholar]

2 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

And what I'm saying is that these polls are being asked in the context of a people who are currently undergoing a highly traumatic experience (being the victims of a genocide). I'm sure if you were somehow able to poll American soldiers over what they thought should happen to Japan while those soldiers were in midst of a death march after falling into captivity of the Japanese military, you'd get similar results to the polls you mentioned.

You are moralizing again. This is irrelevant.

The major reason for this isn't just trauma, but ideological indoctrination by islamist actors. They are making the problem 10x worse.

You can have valid frustration, and then bad faith actors who exploit that valid frustration not in the interest of the population itself but in the interest of their own goals. This is what is occuring in gaza under Hamas. It makes peace simply impossible, independent of how Israel acts.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Scholar

[DocWatts]

23 minutes ago, Scholar said:

You are moralizing again. This is irrelevant.

The major reason for this isn't just trauma, but ideological indoctrination by islamist actors. They are making the problem 10x worse.

You can have valid frustration, and then bad faith actors who exploit that valid frustration not in the interest of the population itself but in the interest of their own goals. This is what is occuring in gaza under Hamas. It makes peace simply impossible, independent of how Israel acts.

Thing is, I don't disagree that what's going on is a combination of collective trauma and indoctrination by bad faith actors who are making the problem worse.

My point is that the way you undercut extremism is by actually addressing the desperate social conditions that are fueling groups like Hamas, which is the direct result of Israeli policy. And thus primarily the responsibility of the Israeli state and the international community to address, rather than that of a captive population with very little power to change things on thier own.

Also, some people seem to be under the impression that Israel would somehow be incapable of defending itself if a two state solution is adopted. Which of course is ridiculous, as its one of the most formidable militaries in the world (and not to mention a nuclear power that's also backed by the United States), and a two state solution wouldn't change that.

Edited October 13, 2023 by DocWatts

[Scholar]

24 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

My point is that the way you undercut extremism is by actually addressing the desperate social conditions that are fueling groups like Hamas, which is the direct result of Israeli policy.

This is not necessarily true, see the post above where I describe self-perpetuating dynamics.

There is a reason for Israeli policy. While some of it is irrational right wing nonsense (which also has it's causes), much of it simply is a result of the dynamic at play. If you are going to pretend Israel is an all powerful god like entity that will not be biased towards itself then you are not engaging with reality in a way that will lead to positive outcomes for anyone. You should take some time and read up on the history of the conflict and what lead up to the decisions being made, from a perspective that is biased towards Israel.

 

24 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Also, some people seem to be under the impression that Israel would somehow be incapable of defending itself if a two state solution is adopted. Which of course is ridiculous, as its one of the most formidable militaries in the world (and not to mention a nuclear power that's also backed by the United States), and a two state solution wouldn't change that.

How can you not see how naive this is? Israel's existence is not at all guaranteed, and just because they might be able to defend themselves from two fronts does not mean that is a rational action from their point of view. What do you think "defending" entails? It would lead to killing of civilians and war, likely far more than it is now. You are demanding from Israel far more than is reasonable, and your inability to recognize this is directly related to why this problem will not be solved.

This is what leftists do. They will tell white people how they are privileged, and in some sense this is true. But you fail to realize that none of that matters when the white people you address themselves suffer and don't feel privileged at all. You cannot demand from white people to act impartially just because there "white privilege" exists. These are human beings, they are as flawed and self-interested and anyone else. Telling them they shouldn't be self interested and suffer silently because of systemic racism is just not productive whatsoever.

 

If you have neighbours that literally want to genocide and destroy your state, do you think you would give them the ability to build a state apparatus they then could use against you in ways that might, over the long term compromise your entire security? How biased do you have to be to not see that this is a demand that is completely irrational. No state would act this way, it would be genuinely idiotic to do so. This problem cannot be resolved with such a naive, one sided, moralistic approach.

 

You can throw around blame and who is more responsible and powerful as long as you want, if you don't realize this, you will simply not understand why this conflict persists.

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Scholar

[zazen]

Ideological indoctrination doesn't just apply to Hamas but to Israeli's themselves - even citizens of the West are subjected to propaganda by their own elites. In fact, the more sophisticated a society (developed) the more sophisticated the tools at their disposal to propagandise the populace. We just have to be aware of the fact that both sides have bad actors propagandising for their own interests.

Just because something or someone doesn't cause a dynamic to be set in motion (Israel) doesn't mean it doesn't contribute to it going on. This is the fallacy of the conspiratorial minded who think everything is caused by the few, and it’s opposite extreme thinking everything is random and blind to the fews contribution to affects that effects the masses.

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by zazen

[DocWatts]

1 hour ago, PurpleTree said:

I like the term islamo-fascists for the extremists. There should also be a good term for the extremists on the other side

It's also a simple recognition that a violent, ethnocentric cult of nationalism isn't the exclusive purview of any particular region or people, but can spring up anywhere if the social conditions are conducive to it. One doesn't have to look far to see how there are elements of this on the Israeli side as well among the far right.

Edited October 13, 2023 by DocWatts

[randmonzzin]

in case you missed this video, that's why HAMAS has muslims respect unlike the USA-Supported Making-Money Machine (IS*IS)

I've been in this forum for years and I rarely comment, but this time , I see an unprecedented propaganda against Palestinians. let me tell you this: 
Israel they make a peace deal with palestinias , the very next day they make a killings , this has been going on for decades. 
So who to blame ? 
Hamas buys weapons from israelis traffickers , they buy intels from their own enemies. 

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, ramosthe5 said:

„So who‘s to blame?“

For what?

free palestine

long live israel

i love seinfeld

extremism not so cool

Edited October 13, 2023 by PurpleTree