New War In Israel / Gaza

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

It's a "few million of us against a billion of them".

Stealing Palestinian land will not change that ratio at all.

If they don't like being in the middle of a billion Muslims, then they picked the wrong part of the world to settle in.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Scholar]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Israel is the strongest power in the region. And in the last few years Netanyahu has made good progress in making Arab allies in the region. If Israel stopped grabbing land they would be able to broker good alliances with some of the Arab states. So the notion of a Holocaust happening there is just not serious. That kind of paranoia is what leads to war.

This is so far from the truth lol, Iran is by far the bigger actor and is invested in the destruction of Israel. And alliances can change, you can't just assume you can rely on that.

This is such a weird view, it's like you are arguing for what you were supposed to be arguing when Russia invaded Ukraine, but you do it in the exact situation where there actually is a valid security concern.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Scholar

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Scholar said:

This is so far from the truth lol, Iran is by far the bigger actor and is invested in the destruction of Israel.

And nothing about that situation will change. It's irrelevant to the land grabbing issue.

Iran also tries to undermine Saudi Arabia. So what? The Saudis are open to allying with Israel as long as Israel treats the Palestinians decently. Israel would also have the full backing of the US if they treated Palestinians decently.

Ukraine clearly shows how powerful a small country can be with US support. With US support no one would Holocaust Israel.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Scholar]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

And nothing about that situation will change. It's irrelevant to land grabbing issue.

It is relevant if the land itself is important for security measures. Is all of the land important? I'm sure it's not, but it becomes a complicated question.

 

Either way, not being vegan is worse than pushing someone out of their homes.

[Vrubel]

@Leo Gura People will always find ways to demonize

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Either way, not being vegan is worse than pushing someone out of their homes.

I will push you out of your home and eat you on some pita bread.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Vrubel]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If they don't like being in the middle of a billion Muslims, then they picked the wrong part of the world to settle in.

The weather is nice, also the beaches 

[PurpleTree]

Also to be fair they built probably the best country in the region in terms of womens rights, psychedelics, weed, party etc

[Scholar]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I will push you out of your home and eat you.

One of the problems you also don't realize is that, when Israel left the Gaza strip all the way back in 2005, it was actually what allowed for HAMAS to take hold and become the major player it is today, becoming a significant security threat to Israel.

 

So, to you it is all simple and Israel should just leave the palestinians alone, but the reality is that it is a continual security threat to them. If they just remove themselves from the West Bank, there is no predicting what kind of powers could take hold, especially with foreign actors being interested in creating a Dombass type situation.

 

In my view the anaylsis here is a little too simplistic, because there are so many factors at play here that all complicate the situation.

 

And HAMAS stated goal, from the very beginning, so all the way back when Israel left the Gaza strip under a fairly liberal regime, was to eradicate the jewish population from Israel.

 

This is the problem with these naive moralistic understandings you have. We are talking about having people of stage red as your direct neighbours.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Scholar

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Scholar said:

One of the problems you also don't realize is that, when Israel left the Gaza strip all the way back in 2005, it was actually what allowed for HAMAS to take hold and become the major player it is today, becoming a significant security threat to Israel.

There will always be a significant security threat to Israel from the Palestinians unless they make peace.

Israel wants land more than they want peace. So there is no peace. But then they shouldn't complain about lack of peace. They could complain about lack of peace if they did a peace settlement and Palestinians violated it.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

There will always be a significant security threat to Israel from the Palestinians unless they either make peace.

They made peace and they got HAMAS. You don't understand that you can't make peace with stage red people, they are not developed enough. They need an islamic state to unify them all under one absolutist ideology before they can even start thinking about silly things such as peace and freedom.

 

This is so american. You think they care about liberty and property rights. These people want to destroy Israel solely because it's their holy land and they are the spawns of the devil.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Scholar

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Scholar said:

They made peace and they got HAMAS. You don't understand that you can't make peace with stage red people, they are not developed enough. They need an islamic state to unify them all under one absolutist ideology before they can even start thinking about silly things such as peace and freedom.

This is so american. You think they care about liberty and property rights. These people want to destroy Israel solely because it's their holy land and they are the spawns of the devil.

Yes, that is a factor. But under this logic there's nothing else to do but endless war and ethnic cleansing.

A serious peace agreement has never been reached from what I understand. Could it hold if it was ever reached? That's a problem too. Yes, it would be hard for the Palestinians to keep their terrorists at bay after so much radicalization and provocation.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Tudo]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There will always be a significant security threat to Israel from the Palestinians unless they make peace.

Israel wants land more than they want peace. So there is no peace. But then they shouldn't complain about lack of peace.

Yes, exactly. Israel is extremely imperialistic, all they really want is to expand, they really don't care about peace or the thousands of Palestinian children dead.

I'm happy the president of my country realizes this.

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Tudo

[Scholar]

2 minutes ago, Nabd said:

People in Gaza actually protested against Hamas few months ago, you are neglecting the fact that Israel crushed the Palestinian left and allowed Hamas to gain power because it justify its existence as an apartheid state.

I don't buy that leftist conspiracy theory.

 

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, that is a factor. But under this logic there's nothing else to do but endless war.

Well, usually someone eventually wins. The problem is of course, that the Israelis are too developed to do what is necessary to win the war, which in some sense is good, but in another sense might actually prolong the suffering.

Either way, pretending there is a solution even though there is no, is not really tenable either.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Scholar

[Scholar]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But under this logic there's nothing else to do but endless war and ethnic cleansing.

Actually, they will just continue what they do now and steal their land until they have none left.

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Actually, they will just continue what they do now and steal their land until they have none left.

Well, they can do that but then they get no sympathy from me and whatever terrorists do to them is their karma.

Israel is basically making this bargain: "We will grab all the land at the cost of X Israeli lives."

Okay. Have at it. You can have all the land in the world if you are willing to pay the price in lives and you have no integrity.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

@Nabd

Leftism is not sustainable in war-torn areas.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

@Nabd Well, there was supposedly Leftism in South American countries as well, Cuba, etc, but look what happened to it.

Leftism in underdeveloped places ends up turning to crap.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Nabd said:

but dont be fooled because none of these dictators actually believed in the ideology,

Of course. No different than USSR and China. Because socialism cannot exist at such low levels of development. Marx himself said that socialism can only come after capitalism is exhausted, and these countries have yet to master the basics of capitalism.

Palestine is stage Red/Blue, Israel is stage Blue/Orange.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course. No different than USSR and China. Because socialism cannot exist at such low levels of development. Marx himself said that socialism can only come after capitalism is exhausted, and these countries have yet to master the basics of capitalism.

Palestine is stage Red/Blue, Israel is stage Blue/Orange.

I would've thought that Israel is more Orange like America is. There economy, infrastructure, cultural beliefs, education per capita, civil rights, and level of democracy are all on par with 1st world countries.