New War In Israel / Gaza

[Vrubel]

39 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

I think toxic stage green is anti zionist not anti Jewish. They are against Zionism and Israel because to them Israel is a colonizer and oppressor. Hence they reject it and want it gone. But that has nothing to do with religion per say. They would not mistreat Jews for being Jews. You need to make the distinction between Zionism (political movement) and Judaism (the religion). You seem to treat them as 1 thing.

Zionism-Oppressor colonizer white supremacist thief of land: This is how extreme stage green sees it.

Judaism- Religion, nothing special about it. This is how extreme stage green sees it.

I know because I know many of these extreme greens and to them the whole issue of Israel is based on colonialism especially since they do not consider the white Jews that came from Europe indigenous to the area. Colonialism has a horrible notation on Green societies since some time ago, green countries tended to have colonies. Therefore they react heavily against ALL forms of colonialism and they view Zionism and Colonialism as one. 

Note: I am just saying what I noticed from them, these are not my personal views.

As an objective observation of toxic stage green you speak truthfully here. But Anti-Semitism has not been on a religious basis for a very long time. Anti-semitism evolves with whatever the current hivemind of the time is. I am Jewish but I am not at all attached to the Jewish religion (though I have a healthy respect for it and definitely can see the beauty in it). But I am attached to Israel, because Israel stands for the survival of the Jewish people. And what do modern extreme left anti-semites love to hate and demonize? ... Exactly!
 

39 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Owen Jones kind of people.

He is exceptionally stupid but a great example of the self-defeatism inherent in the free-palestine hivemind: He praises and romanticizes the Houthis for standing up for the suffering people of Gaza. But what is the Houthi motto? Death to Jews, Death to Israel, etc.   
And what happens if you bring death to Jews? ...Palestinians in Gaza that suffer. 

Edited February 19 by Vrubel

[Karmadhi]

6 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

But Anti-Semitism has not been on a religious basis for a very long time. Anti-semitism evolves with whatever the current hivemind of the time is. I am Jewish but I am not at all attached to the Jewish religion (though I have a healthy respect for it and definitely can see the beauty in it).

Dont you find it lowkey racist? I do not want to sound rude but I did some research about it and it seems they glorify treating Jews better than Gentiles and do not see all equal before God. Also they glorify and support genocide against their enemies (Amalek seed). I read this from a Jewish author actually. I am just asking here, I do not claim to be an expert on the area. I know some people that dislike Jews because they say "they see us as lesser".

8 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

ut I am attached to Israel, because Israel stands for the survival of the Jewish people

I am sure even if Israel was gone as an entity Jews would be fine. Europe spoils them these days so they would fare well. Also they seem to be educated and tons of connections. I dont know why they chose the Middle East to settle in. That is basically looking for trouble. Settling in USA or some island would be far better for them.

9 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

And what do modern extreme left anti-semites love to hate and demonize? ..

Because of the way Israel acts. This is the elephant in the room you keep ignoring. I think you should educate yourself on their devilry otherwise you put all the blame on "anti semetism" and ignore Palestinian oppression. 

 

[Vrubel]

7 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

18 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

But Anti-Semitism has not been on a religious basis for a very long time. Anti-semitism evolves with whatever the current hivemind of the time is. I am Jewish but I am not at all attached to the Jewish religion (though I have a healthy respect for it and definitely can see the beauty in it).

Dont you find it lowkey racist? I do not want to sound rude but I did some research about it and it seems they glorify treating Jews better than Gentiles and do not see all equal before God. Also they glorify and support genocide against their enemies (Amalek seed). I read this from a Jewish author actually. I am just asking here, I do not claim to be an expert on the area. I know some people that dislike Jews because they say "they see us as lesser".

18 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

ut I am attached to Israel, because Israel stands for the survival of the Jewish people

I am sure even if Israel was gone as an entity Jews would be fine. Europe spoils them these days so they would fare well. Also they seem to be educated and tons of connections. I dont know why they chose the Middle East to settle in. That is basically looking for trouble. Settling in USA or some island would be far better for them.

Ignorant and irrelevant. 

 

8 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Because of the way Israel acts. This is the elephant in the room you keep ignoring. I think you should educate yourself on their devilry otherwise you put all the blame on "anti semetism" and ignore Palestinian oppression. 

Definitely not, I can see when somebody has legitimate criticism or is just being mindlessly ugly, demonizing and obsessed. But yeah as I explained with the Owen Jones example you can only be effective in protecting the best interest of Palestinians if you come to the insight of...

"Wait... Israelis are actually very respectable people with the legitimate and deep human right to live on their land and defend it from those that want to harm them as the potential for barbarity of their enemies is so great." "I am still against Israeli devilry but will speak out about in a way that respects both peoples and without demonization otherwise I am essentially forfeiting my claim that I am supportive of peace and justice." 

[Raze]

 

[MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI]

^That is how the military works.. haha

[MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI]

So funny how "Hamas" has now become the "Victim"... 

[Nivsch]

4 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Countless people that call Hamas resistance fighters are not like that.

To rape and then murder, to burn babies and to kill your own (PLO) people and hang your people on electric polls is indeed a freedom fighting. 

Edited February 19 by Nivsch

[Yimpa]

49 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

To rape and then murder, to burn babies and to kill your own (PLO) people and hang your people on electric polls is indeed a freedom fighting. 

Very disturbing things happen when your survival needs aren’t met.

[Nivsch]

22 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

Very disturbing things happen when your survival needs aren’t met.

Of course. Tens of Millions of dollars every year are not enough for them for their basic survival 🙂

Edited February 19 by Nivsch

[Twentyfirst]

5 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Karmadhi As long as they live under hamas indoctrination this is already heartbreaking. Now at least this is going to change.

There is no indoctrination. That is a huge misconception. It's not that Palestinians are brainwashed from a young age to hate Israel. They just genuinely for themselves see whats happening and choose to fight for their land in whatever way they want to resist. Nobody is making them do anything in the same way Hamas isn't indoctrinating Palestinian refugees to want to return to their land its just what they naturally want 

[Twentyfirst]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

To rape and then murder, to burn babies and to kill your own (PLO) people and hang your people on electric polls is indeed a freedom fighting. 

Isn't that the whole Israeli argument? You had to steal Palestine and now kill all these civilians in the name of "homeland" and "defense".

Is it all worth it?

[Yimpa]

44 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Of course. Tens of Millions of dollars every year are not enough for them for their basic survival 🙂

Relatable. My family has given me a ton of material resources growing up, but I lacked wisdom in how to utilize those resources wisely.

[Nivsch]

9 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Isn't that the whole Israeli argument? You had to steal Palestine and now kill all these civilians in the name of "homeland" and "defense".

Is it all worth it?

A very high % of the Palestinians came to the region in the last centuries too, only a little before Israel has established. 

Classic double standard game.

Edited February 19 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

18 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

There is no indoctrination. That is a huge misconception. It's not that Palestinians are brainwashed from a young age to hate Israel. They just genuinely for themselves see whats happening and choose to fight for their land in whatever way they want to resist. Nobody is making them do anything in the same way Hamas isn't indoctrinating Palestinian refugees to want to return to their land its just what they naturally want 

It is an indoctrination.

To want something is one thing, and to give a gun to a 5 year old child, teaching him he has to kill other people including his own people in some situations is another thing.

Edited February 19 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

To rape and then murder, to burn babies and to kill your own (PLO) people and hang your people on electric polls is indeed a freedom fighting. 

Like IDF is any better. There are now every day reports and cases of similar things being done by the IDF. Rape, torture, murder etc.

If you think IDF is any less bloodthirsty and vengeful than Hamas at the moment you need some research to do.

The evidence is there if you search for it.

[Karmadhi]

4 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Ignorant and irrelevant. 

An explanation would be appreciated. You really Jewish culture is better than Muslim culture? Same shit to me to be honest. Culture is culture.

Having preferences is one thing but I can sense you see Jews as superior which is indeed a big problem. All humans have equal value.

4 hours ago, Vrubel said:

"Wait... Israelis are actually very respectable people with the legitimate and deep human right to live on their land and defend it from those that want to harm them as the potential for barbarity of their enemies is so great

Most Palestinians are also respectable people but they are blamed as terrorists. So it goes both ways.

Also you keep ignoring the fact that Israel is seen as a colonialist entity.

You say it here: "Their land". According to liberals it is NOT their land. It is STOLEN land. Land STOLEN by EUROPEANS.

I need to use caps because you keep ignoring this. From a liberal perspective they see white people from USA and Europe , going in and taking the land of Arabs which are obviously from that area. So they will think "Theft, colonialism, white supremacy" etc etc.

Now my question is, why is this argument not true? Personally I am unsure whether Israel is indeed colonialism, Jews may have originated from there thousands of years ago then migrated and merged with other ethnicities. 

But to me it is a bullshit logic that people go and kick off those that lived there for so long because 5000 years ago perhaps they were from there.

It is similar to Putin logic that Ukraine is not a real country because at 900 AD they were 1 entitity. 

So my question is: Why should Jews in order to feel safe, kick out others. Why this zero sum logic? Sure, Jews now have a homeland and are "safe" but at the expense of others. Is this really acceptable? Why didnt they get the homeland they deserve somewhere where they were indeed wanted. 

 

Edited February 19 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

48 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Like IDF is any better. There are now every day reports and cases of similar things being done by the IDF. Rape, torture, murder etc.

If you think IDF is any less bloodthirsty and vengeful than Hamas at the moment you need some research to do.

The evidence is there if you search for it.

Seems like you can invent anything at this point.

When you want the day to turn into night I can't do anything about it.

Think for yourself and thats it.

Edited February 19 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

An explanation would be appreciated. You really Jewish culture is better than Muslim culture? Same shit to me to be honest. Culture is culture.

Having preferences is one thing but I can sense you see Jews as superior which is indeed a big problem. All humans have equal value.

I am not going to entertain your flimsy and speculative theories about Jewish culture and religion. It's also not that relevant, furthermore I never really grew up with Jewish culture. It was more of a mix of Russian culture and Western principles. Also, everything your mind touches gets mushed into your narrow narrative so why should I even bother?

 

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Also you keep ignoring the fact that Israel is seen as a colonialist entity.

You say it here: "Their land". According to liberals it is NOT their land. It is STOLEN land. Land STOLEN by EUROPEANS.

I need to use caps because you keep ignoring this. From a liberal perspective they see white people from USA and Europe , going in and taking the land of Arabs which are obviously from that area. So they will think "Theft, colonialism, white supremacy" etc etc.

Now my question is, why is this argument not true? Personally I am unsure whether Israel is indeed colonialism, Jews may have originated from there thousands of years ago then migrated and merged with other ethnicities. 

The Jews were mostly dirt-poor pioneers from Eastern Europe and refugees from the Middle East. The Middle Eastern Jews were kicked out by the Arabs and lived in refugee camps before being absorbed and fully integrated into Israeli society. European Jews only had a majority in the land for around 30 years. Israel is very much so a Middle Eastern country. Jews don't have some old country or "motherland" they can return to. Israel is the motherland and old country. There is no second Israel. That's why Israelis are so motivated and uncompromising in the defense of their land that they genuinely and deeply love.

 

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

So my question is: Why should Jews in order to feel safe, kick out others. Why this zero sum logic? Sure, Jews now have a homeland and are "safe" but at the expense of others. Is this really acceptable? Why didnt they get the homeland they deserve somewhere where they were indeed wanted. 

Back in the day, it was a relatively sparsely populated land under Ottoman and later British rule, it was never a "Palestinian" country, there was no centralized government or sovereignty over their land. The land itself was mostly owned by rich Lebanese (who sold it to Jews). The Palestinian national identity didn't exist. First came the Zionist pioneers and as a reaction the Palestinian national identity was developed. Do the Palestinians have the right to their land? absolutely, simply because they live there. But did they also start wars that made them lose out on more of the land: Absolutely. 

I know it's an Israeli cliche but if you dig into the ground anywhere in Israel you'll find Jewish artifacts, this is true. Jews are native to the land. As opposed to Palestinians, Jews actually held sovereignty in the land before being kicked out after the 'Great Jewish Revolt' into the Diaspora and coming back 2000 years later. But even all the historical knowledge aside (so you won't accuse me of using Putin tactics, though I am being 100% truthful). There are two truths side by side: The Palestinians have the right to the land and so do the Jews. For different but equally legitimate reasons. 

Even though during WW2 the main Palestinian leader was a Nazi sympathetic to Hitler, it's true that Palestinians had nothing to do with the Holocaust or earlier persecution of Jews in Europe. But it is the force and poetry of history that has brought the Jews back to their ancient homeland. It's an universal Karma and I understand why the Palestinians feel wronged by that. But such is reality. The world is not all rainbow and sunshine, Jews know this starkly well. Cut your losses and make peace. Palestinians can take comfort in that Arabs still live in Israel and partake in the democratic system. Like-wise I think Jewish settlers can also take comfort in simply living on their biblical heartland even though it might fall under Palestinian sovereignty under any future peace deal. 

 

 

Edited February 20 by Vrubel

[Nivsch]

@Vrubel This is a waste of time. Most members here dont care about all the 100 times Israel tried to negotiate and believed the other side can be moderate and pragmatic and did many things to find a common ground.

No. They will only care when Israel makes mistakes. They will cherry pick 1 overreaction and overlook 20 genuine trials done before that.

The attacking on Israel is mostly psychological and spiritual and the real answer you will find in this world. Logic and detailes does not work.

Edited February 20 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

@Nivsch Absolutely right, It's more for myself. I know shit and enjoy writing about history and Israel, standing up for truth is also important but it's definitely a trap to get sucked into useless back-and-forths with what could be 17-year-olds on the internet.

Also, I am spiritually regrounding myself, after 7/10 is was too angry and emotional, and even though I support and see the necessity of the total elimination of Hamas the peace dream should win out in the end. 

Edited February 20 by Vrubel