New War In Israel / Gaza

[Hardkill]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Build better defenses around Gaza and do more surgical intelligence operations.

But if you ask the mother to leave, the murderer will also leave. So what is the point of bombing the building?

Also, don't forget, that building is someone's property and home. Are you okay if I bomb your mother's house when she is out shopping?

People invest their entire lives into building their homes. To just destroy it is a serious crime. Especially in areas where people are poor.

Many intelligent people also criticized the US invasion of Iraq and drone strikes, because it is an obvious misuse of force and leads to counter-productive results.

The military has to be used with a lot of restraint, otherwise it causes more harm than good.

I get that a ceasefire is realistically not gonna happen anytime soon, but Arab Americans and young voters in very key battleground states that Biden last time won, only by razor thin margins in 2020, are threatening to not vote for Biden and the Democrats again in the 2024 general election, if he and many other Dems in Washington don't call for a ceasefire. So, would it still be better politically for a lot more Democrats, including Biden himself, to call for a ceasefire? 

Edited January 17, 2024 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

@Hardkill Biden should do what he feels is right, not what will please disgruntled voters.

Edited January 17, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

@Hardkill Biden should do what he feels is right, not what will please disgruntled voters.

Why exactly? Presidents are elected to serve the will of the people, not do whatever they want.

[Hardkill]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Hardkill Biden should do what he feels is right, not what will please voters.

Even if it costs him his re-election? Even at the possible lost of our country's democracy being lost because Biden lost too much of the support he needed to beat Trump again in 2024?

Or will those voters probably come home by the election day, regardless of what his decision is with handling Israel?

Or will those disgruntled voters not really have a real significant effect on the electoral outcome?

Edited January 17, 2024 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Raze said:

Why exactly? Presidents are elected to serve the will of the people, not do whatever they want.

Presidents are elected to excercise their superior judgment, not to do whatever some vocal minority wants.

[Raze]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Presidents are elected to excercise their superior judgment, not to do whatever some vocal minority wants.

It isn’t a minority, the majority want a ceasefire.

 

[Hardkill]

4 minutes ago, Raze said:

It isn’t a minority, the majority want a ceasefire.

That is according to the polls and according to the vast majority of countries around the world.

Here's an article on it from the Data for Progress website: Voters Want the U.S. to Call for a Permanent Ceasefire in Gaza and to Prioritize Diplomacy

https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2023/12/5/voters-want-the-us-to-call-for-a-permanent-ceasefire-in-gaza-and-to-prioritize-diplomacy

"When asked how knowledgeable they are about the Israel-Palestine conflict, 25% of voters say they have either an 'extensive' or 'proficient' level of knowledge, while 35% say they have a 'moderate' knowledge level. Voters who get their news from social media are especially likely to consider themselves knowledgeable: 36% of voters who get news from Instagram, 33% of voters who get news from TikTok, and 30% of voters who get news from Facebook say they have extensive or proficient knowledge about the conflict.

Sixty-one percent of likely voters, including a majority of Democrats (76%) and Independents (57%) and a plurality of Republicans (49%), support the U.S. calling for a permanent ceasefire and a de-escalation of violence in Gaza."

 

Edited January 17, 2024 by Hardkill

[Raze]

2 hours ago, Nabd said:

 

There were two other viral videos like this recently but they both got age restricted and immediately stopped rapid increase of views. I suspect it will happen to this one soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv1SpwwJEW8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pjo3bJPrd8

It seems YouTube may be intentionally or unintentionally suppressing videos with criticisms of Israel…

Edited January 17, 2024 by Raze

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Build better defenses around Gaza and do more surgical intelligence operations.

1. Is this can put enough pressure on hamas leaders to make them agree to free the hostages?

2. Isn't only a real threat on those leaders life and hamas's military capabilities the only possible option to make them do so?

3. Israel did more than 10 surgical intelligence operations in the last 18 years and it only lead to oct 7th.

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

People invest their entire lives into building their homes. To just destroy it is a serious crime. Especially in areas where people are poor.

But if those homes were indeed used by hamas to their purposes? I read an article in which an Israel soldiers says that hamas is found in every or almost every building. Even if we assume this is exaggarated, can it be though a plausible scenario in such a culture?

I found it:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/irresponsibility-compounds-catastrophe-why-the-idfs-war-against-hamas-has-lost-momentum/

"The tactics caused devastation in northern Gaza, where Hamas had booby-trapped “every other house,” in the words of IDF officials."

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Also, don't forget, that building is someone's property and home. Are you okay if I bomb your mother's house when she is out shopping?

People invest their entire lives into building their homes. To just destroy it is a serious crime. Especially in areas where people are poor.

I understand you and respect that. But then again, are civil neighborhoods in Gaza really sterile and doesn't used as fortifications of hamas? I got the impression many of them are that way.

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Many intelligent people also criticized the US invasion of Iraq and drone strikes, because it is an obvious misuse of force and leads to counter-productive results.

I agree it was counter productive there.

But I fear we don't have another choice right now because of the hostages.

Edited January 17, 2024 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

29 minutes ago, Raze said:

It isn’t a minority, the majority want a ceasefire.

A good leader does what is right even if the whole world is agianst him.

[Hardkill]

43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

A good leader does what is right even if the whole world is agianst him.

I wonder if Obama would've called for a ceasefire or would've done a better job of keeping Bibi and the Israeli government in check. They say that Biden has been more pro-Israeli than Obama was when he was president. Also, during Obama's presidency, there was much greater peace in the middle east. Not even presidents Bush 2, Bill Clinton, H.W. Bush, Reagan, or Carter were as pro-Israeli as Biden has been. 

I hope Biden is making the right call on this. Although, he apparently has lately been getting more and more impatient and upset with Netanyahu.

 

Edited January 17, 2024 by Hardkill

[kenway]

 

[kenway]

 

[kenway]

With 85% of residential homes destroyed and with 1.9 million displaced people building up in the southern enclaves, Netanyahu's strategy for the next phase appears to be forced starvation and the deliberate invocation of a humanitarian catastrophe.

The trick is simple:-

Bring the remainder of the 2 million civilians to the point of near-death, and then effectively blackmail the international community (especially Egypt) to act accordingly, in accepting the Palestinians unto their territories.

Netanyahu's bargain will be: "This is no longer our problem. On the one hand you have a genocide. On the other hand you have a holocaust. It's your choice."

 

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2024 by kenway

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

A good leader does what is right even if the whole world is agianst him.

But a good leader needs to have the humility to know they can be wrong. Plenty of leaders wanted to do things they thought were good but didn’t because they felt pressure by their constituents. When they don’t have such pressures you end up with people like Mao, Stalin, Hitler. 

[Raze]

10 minutes ago, Nabd said:

I dont think US president position matter much.

Putin is much more capable of taking radical decisions on his own because the system in Russia is totalitarian.

Same could he said about US (being totalitarian in soft way) but the difference is the president doesn't hold much power. Power lies somewhere else.

 

That doesn’t make any sense. Biden just unilaterally called from strikes on Houthis. If he threatened Israel with less aid or even sanctions they’d do what he said.

[Yimpa]

1 minute ago, Raze said:

That doesn’t make any sense. 

Since when did human rationality end all conflicts and wars successfully?

[Karmadhi]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Is this can put enough pressure on hamas leaders to make them agree to free the hostages?

Why dont they send their soldiers to fight? They have like 400.000 of them. Send them in the tunnels.

Also surgical strikes and sending them in tunnels. I am sure some may die but better than 10.000 childreen dead.

Also this way actually Hamas gets killed.

Issue is that they would rather kill 10 kids than risk 1 of their soldiers lives which is a flawed inhumane position since that kid is a third party and equally innocent to the hostages that they are trying to save.

But lets be real, they see those childreen as not innocent.

Lets not kid ourselves here.

Edited January 18, 2024 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

On 17/1/2024 at 1:50 AM, Lila9 said:

They deserve what they do to others.

Considering they got their land stolen and treated like shit for decades  they act quite civilized I think. Switch your place with theirs for some months then talk.

On 17/1/2024 at 1:50 AM, Lila9 said:

If they would have been peaceful

So you suggest they bow down to the thieves that took their land? Most people tend to fight hard for their land. Look at Ukraine. I do not see them bowing down to Russia.

On 17/1/2024 at 1:50 AM, Lila9 said:

And there could be a place for negociating two states solution or even one,

The West Bank authority would be down for that if they got some normal terms. Meaning 50/50 split.

On 17/1/2024 at 1:50 AM, Lila9 said:

They didn't treated her 'so well', they treated her like they treat their hostages, did the bare minimum to keep her alive and God knows what she has seen there and experienced there, per her family, she still hasn't came fully to herself and doesn't speak or behave like she used to prior to the kidnapping.

Israel has thousnads of kids in jails for arbitrary reasons. Why you get so emotional about 1 kid? Thousands are suffering in Israeli jails at the moment. Israel used to put kids in cages. I do not see Hamas do so to that girl. It is sad what happened to her but it is funny when Israeli cry when they have 1000x worse.

On 17/1/2024 at 1:50 AM, Lila9 said:

justifying a terrorist organization who started this war by commiting unbelievable crimes against humanity, deliberately with a great celebration.

Remind me who has a genocide case at the moment against them?

On 17/1/2024 at 1:50 AM, Lila9 said:

don't prove that Israel deliberately and systematically targets civilians, like Hamas did and still do.

There are countless articles from respectable sources saying so. If you want to ignore them that is on you.

On 17/1/2024 at 1:50 AM, Lila9 said:

The biggest enemy of the Palestinians is not Israel but Hamas and toxic doctrines alike. And by fighting Hamas Israel helping to the Palestinians, in the long term. If not Hamas, Gaza wouldn't be in the state it is now. This is a fact.

The Hamas that your Neo Hitler Leader Benjamin has openly supported and founded? Interesting...

On 17/1/2024 at 1:50 AM, Lila9 said:

If you are ruled by such terrorist organization, you are doomed to high suffering, either by the terrorists and their policies directly against you, or indirectly by being at a vulnerable position and by being at their mercy when they are intiating fighting against others

If Israel minded its own business rather than steal land people would not be stuck in Gaza in the first place. From what I saw on the 1947 borders all the areas near Gaza were Palestine. All the areas Hamas attacked are Palestine. I am sorry for what happened to the people there but they do not belong to live there. It is stolen land. You can make the case about Israel existing but the UN plan of 1947 did not include all the areas near Gaza, the same areas Hamas attacked as Israel. Funny when thieves start crying once they are faced with the consequences of their theft.

[kenway]

Front page of New York Times - Wed 17th January 2024

 

 

Edited January 18, 2024 by kenway