New War In Israel / Gaza

[zazen]

It’s entirely possible that attempting to bomb ‘terrorism’ out of existence doesn’t always work and what we think is in our best interest (defence via war) isn’t. When Germany and Britain were bombing each other both populations rallied together for more resilience and resistance against it. As can be seen by the increased popularity in polls for Hamas today and what in Britain was known as the ‘Blitz spirit’ - a term to symbolise their resolve, resilience and national unity in the face of hardship caused by the Nazi’s blitz bombing campaign. If Israel say they don’t want a Palestinian state it’s ironic that bombing them only nationalises them further.

One can say ‘but look, the Nazi’s were defeated and there is peace now’ sure - but at what expense and what level of international acceptance at the time. Post WW2 institutions and foundational documents were created (UN, Geneva convention and universal declaration of human rights) to promote peace and equality, protect and sanctify life and persecute and prevent further war crimes and atrocities. The standard of what is acceptable has shifted. Which is why any explicit genocidal intent has to be discreet, subtle and slowly go under the radar.

Another point is the difference between Nazi’s/ISIS and Hamas that Israeli apologists knowingly equate to justify and gain support from the world. Nazi and ISIS are thrown in to label and link Hamas to toxic expansionist genocidal ideologies and unjust causes the world came together to fight. The former are globalist death cults whilst the latter a localised defensive resistance movement that yes - do employ terrorist tactics that should be persecuted equally as any other group. This isn’t a defense of Hamas, just analysis of the situation - analysis isn’t approval.

Something to understand about grassroots movements such as resistance on a homeland is that you can’t keep ‘mowing or cutting the grass’ to get rid of it - it needs to be uprooted from the soil. The grass (people) will keep on growing (resisting) unless totally defeated in morale through subjugation (harder for people of faith) or uprooted from their land (ethnically cleansed or genocided). Even if the motive isn’t to genocide but is only to ethnically cleanse/displace people - the inability to do so can out of frustration and desperation lead to genocide. Maybe in explicit ways (targeted killing) or indirect ways (make their land unliveable by systemic destruction - which has been stated).

At its best Israel may not be targeting civilians but they don’t care enough not to harm them in targeting Hamas - at its worst, Hamas aren’t the target but the excuse to cleanse and claim land Zionism has felt entitled to and aspired to - both in the name of ‘defence’ - a term used as a verbal shield for such actions which only the spear of good conscience and intelligence can penetrate.

Edited December 29, 2023 by zazen

[kenway]

~ Dr Brian Feeney, The Irish News

https://www.irishnews.com/opinion/genocide-joe-biden-has-got-the-gaza-crisis-wrong-in-every-way-brian-feeney-PVL4BQU4YZFZ7FLC67S2APUYDU/

 

[hundreth]

24 minutes ago, kenway said:

~ Dr Brian Feeney, The Irish News

https://www.irishnews.com/opinion/genocide-joe-biden-has-got-the-gaza-crisis-wrong-in-every-way-brian-feeney-PVL4BQU4YZFZ7FLC67S2APUYDU/

 

"Hamas is not a state and Israel is legally still the occupying power in Gaza. You don't have the right to self-defence against a territory you occupy."

Statements like these are nothing more than playing semantic games and intellectualization gone too far. Should Israel go on the offensive? No. But of course any nation is going to defend itself and it's citizens from a threat, whether "external" or "internal".

When you suggest Israel should just lay down and die because you've convinced yourself they don't have the moral high ground, you've lost any ability to effect change in the region and your perspective will be ignored by those with power in the region.  

If the United States, France, or even Ireland had a terrorist faction ruling over a subset of it's people, stealing funds, stealing aid, and shooting rockets into neighboring towns, Ireland would shut them down immediately. And that's even if you believe all those territories are internal to Ireland. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by hundreth

[_Archangel_]

@Nivsch War on terrorism (badly managed) doesn't justify the sacrifice of 1000's. expecially when they are the larger part, and the head of the organization are unbotherded outside of gaza.
This will just lead to more radicalization and risentiment among the younger population and will make them new adepts to be used for new attacks to Israel , do you get that?

And as i've said  the history of the last 80 years suggests attack towards palestinians are more deliberate that it seems.

20 hours ago, hundreth said:

In general I think this was a well done conversation. 

@hundreth Indeed, because it showed the plot-holes in both of them.
Cenk is under the illusion that there isn't a significant part of the palesinians that has benn radicalized and full on support Hamas.
Destiny doesn't believe that Palestinians are or have been oppressed, which is crazy.

[Karmadhi]

12 minutes ago, hundreth said:

When you suggest Israel should just lay down and die because you've convinced yourself they don't have the moral high ground, you've lost any ability to effect change in the region and your perspective will be ignored by those with power in the region.  

Going back to 1947 borders and giving up illegally stolen land from the people that welcomed them while Europeans were butchering them would be a good start

[hundreth]

1 minute ago, _Archangel_ said:

 

@hundreth Indeed, because it showed the plot-holes in both of them.
Cenk is under the illusion that there isn't a significant part of the palesinians that has benn radicalized and full on support Hamas.
Destiny doesn't believe that Palestinians are or have been oppressed, which is crazy.

That's not how I interpreted Destiny's remarks. He acknowledges the history and plight of the Palestinians, but unlike most assigns a level of accountability towards them which is unheard of in many leftist circles. He challenges the notion that they have been negotiating for peace in good faith. 

[hundreth]

1 minute ago, Karmadhi said:

Going back to 1947 borders and giving up illegally stolen land from the people that welcomed them while Europeans were butchering them would be a good start

What are 1947 borders? The British Mandate? Should the UK come rule over the lands again? 

Most sane people advocate for 1967 based two state solution, but both sides will need to come to the negotiation table. And it won't be as simple as you say. There will have to be security considerations, land swaps and trust established over time. 

If we want change to happen, we need to be realistic. 

[Devin]

I don't understand how people think any borders resolve this, to me it seems quite obvious that these are two cultures that hate each other and will always kill each other so long as they're in the same region.

Israel should be removed by the other local nations, Iran should not be held back from defending peace.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Devin

[hundreth]

6 minutes ago, Devin said:

I don't understand how people think any borders resolve this, to me it seems quite obvious that these are two cultures that hate each other and will always kill each other so long as they're in striking distance.

Israel should be removed by the other local nations, Iran should not be held back from defending peace.

Appreciate you going mask off.

 

Sure, let's go no holds barred war to eliminate Israel, one of the only nations in the region with nuclear capabilities. I'm sure it will work out and result in peace.

Edited December 29, 2023 by hundreth

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

@Nivsch They are murdered. Not just displaced.

They are not.

Unless you have a proof of an intentional killing of cilivlians and you don't have that.

[Devin]

10 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Appreciate you going mask off.

 

Sure, let's go no holds barred war to eliminate Israel, one of the only nations in the region with nuclear capabilities. I'm sure it will work out and result in peace.

War is not necessary, they can go back to Europe without altercation.

[hundreth]

Just now, Devin said:

War is not necessary, they can go back to Europe without altercation.

So by you bringing Iran into the equation, I'm guessing you meant Iran will pack their bags and lay out a red carpet for them?

[Karmadhi]

@Nivsch https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/100000009208814/israel-gaza-bomb-civilians.html

here you go

[Devin]

Just now, hundreth said:

So by you bringing Iran into the equation, I'm guessing you meant Iran will pack their bags and lay out a red carpet for them?

The only reason Europeans stay in Israel is because Iran is held in check by the West. Without the threat of the West to Iran, Israelis would go back to Europe out of pure common sense.

[Karmadhi]

15 minutes ago, hundreth said:

one of the only nations in the region with nuclear capabilities

How come Israeli is allowed illegally to have nukes but when Iran tries to get them the world looses its shit and sanctions them to death?

Double standards again

If Israel is allowed to have nukes then so should Iran imo

[_Archangel_]

@hundreth i rewatched a peace and i realized was to harsh.
Nontheless, Destiny thinks that if palestinians would suddenly become non belligerant than this would be an advancement to peace that would benefit them, to wich i don't really agree to. And the idea that palestinian civilian should reject hamas and embrace moderation may be good on paper but impractical for multiple reasons.

[hundreth]

Just now, Karmadhi said:

How come Israeli is allowed illegally to have nukes but when Iran tries to get them the world looses its shit and sanctions them to death?

Double standards again

If Israel is allowed to have nukes then so should Iran imo

Because Israel is sane enough not to use them and has not explicitly stated their goal is to remove a nation from this planet.

[hundreth]

2 minutes ago, Devin said:

The only reason Europeans stay in Israel is because Iran is held in check by the West. Without the threat of the West to Iran, Israelis would go back to Europe out of pure common sense.

Iran is also held in check by Israel.

[Nivsch]

7 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

@Nivsch https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/100000009208814/israel-gaza-bomb-civilians.html

here you go

This is at most a too loose tactic to hit a terror target and you can critisize that but keep in mind there are 10,000s terror targets to attack and not sure if this is really possible to avoid this.

But this is not at all a proof of an intentional attack on civilians. 

hamas uses civilians homes as its regular strategy.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[Devin]

Just now, hundreth said:

Iran is also held in check by Israel.

Time may tell a different narrative.