New War In Israel / Gaza

[Hardkill]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

YT progressives are pretty foolish people overall.

Do you think there should be a permanent ceasefire? Or not yet?

Edited December 28, 2023 by Hardkill

[Raze]

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

I personally have no issue with being sympathetic towards Palestinians. The problem for me is that too often I see all the blame placed on the Israelis, no accountability at all for the Palestinian side, and the proposed solutions being 100% concessions from the Israeli side with no regard for the realities on the ground.

Examples:

Q: "What should Israel do??"

"I don't have to answer that, I'm not the one occupying Palestinians"

"How about not bombing Gaza"

"How about a ceasefire?"

"How about giving Palestinians a state immediately with no security assurances for Israelis?"

"How about leaving Palestine and going to America?"

It gets ridiculous, and what could be seen as voices of reason which improve relations instead spur more violence by perpetuating myths that Palestinians will have the whole pie from the river to the sea, that they have no responsibility, that Israelis can do no right and do not belong... and so Israelis have completely tuned them out.

1. We are only responsible for what we do, not what others do. Right now the US isn’t supporting and funding Hamas, it is funding and supporting the IDF, therefore criticizing Hamas will change nothing as we don’t influence them. But as US citizens, or citizens of other countries backing Israel, we can influence our governments and how they deal with Israel. (It was actually the Israeli government which funded Hamas to divide the Palestinians between them and the PLO, literally funding a organization that killed Jews because it hurt a two state solution…)

2. Who is benefiting from no cease fire? Netanyahu, as long as the war is going Israeli’s have to unite behind him and he won’t be pushed out of office. Should we not be a little skeptical of claims a cease fire can’t be an option pushed by a head of state who personally stands to benefit from it?

the other group benefiting are future extremists. The majority of Hamas militants were orphans raised by hamas. Israel has already created more orphans than any conflict in recent memory. Hamas had 36 percent popularity in Gaza before the war, now its 52 percent. In the West Bank, it’s over 70 percent now. Keep in mind Hamas took over in Gaza because the Palestinians were tired of PLO corruption, what happens if the West Bank overthrows the PLO and installs a militant group to defend them from settlers who are massacring them? This just creates another situation as or more dangerous than Gaza for Israel.

who is being hurt by it? The Palestinians, they’ve already lost over 15,000 civilians and many more permanently injured. They are now at risk of hundreds of thousands starving or dehydrating because most aid is blocked. The Israeli’s, the war is putting them at greater risk because Hamas is firing rockets and it’s increasing tensions with Hezbolla and the Houtis. The IDF, they’ve lost nearly 200 in fighting already and admit the war is going to get more brutal as they now have to actually penetrate deeper neighborhoods in Gaza and do more on the ground operations because they’ve already bombed nearly every target. The hostages, they’ve already lost dozens in the bombing or getting killed and even the idf can’t secure their safety even if they escape as they already accidentally killed 3 who were literally shirtless, waving white flags  and yelling for help in Hebrew,

3. why should Israel not be pressured to ceasefire? Every country except for the USA and Israel backed a ceasefire resolution. In the USA even though the majority support Israel, a significant majority polled said they want a ceasefire. The governments are supposed to represent the people. If the people want a ceasefire, they should be pressuring Israel for it.

4. If the Palestinians had a path to a state before this and Israel was willing to deal with Hamas politically this wouldn’t have happened. Do you think oct 7 happened out of nowhere, or perhaps the fact the blockade on Gaza had almost half of the population unemployed, most water resources contaminated, thousands of Gazans killed in just the last 20 years every time Israel bombarded Gaza, and hundreds injured or killed when Gazans attempted a peaceful protest in 2018, all had something to do with it. Killing Palestinians doesn’t reduce violence towards Israel, it increases it, and they’ve killed more now than ever before. Israel containing to refuse to give them a path to safety and survival and just going for ethnic cleansing just leads them to back hamas as their only option.

5. Who on breaking points, tyt, Sam Seder, or any other major progressive show suggested all of Israel should migrate to America, give me an example.

why do you find random Internet progressive opinions ridiculous as compared to what Israel is currently doing, they just killed by their own admittance well over 10K civilians and are now saying they are on the verge of a 7 front war. They openly say they will blockade any ability for the Palestinians to have a state. Let’s say Israel gets to do whatever they want, which is basically what’s happening, they’re headed for a situation where they’ve orphaned thousands in Gaza and West Bank, made the blockade and occupation even more brutal and strict, and will further refuse an political solution. Even if they destroy Hamas, a new group, probably even worse will emerge. That’s not even mentioning if they pull Iran and Syria into a war, they just assassinated a top Iranian general in Syria. A advisor for the Middle East in CNN said he’s never seen the level of anger at Israel and the USA in the Middle East as he does now. Keeping in mind the amount of extremist groups is much greater and have way more area of operations than pre 9/11after the Iraq and Afghanistan war, the toppling of Gadafi, and civil war in Syria. What happens if this causes a 9/11 like event in the USA? Imagine what America would do, understanding how massive the response was when 9/11 happened at a far more stable time.

Unlike progressive online opinions on what should happen, this is literally what is happening right now.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Raze

[hundreth]

30 minutes ago, Raze said:

1. We are only responsible for what we do, not what others do. Right now the US isn’t supporting and funding Hamas, it is funding and supporting the IDF, therefore criticizing Hamas will change nothing as we don’t influence them. But as US citizens, or citizens of other countries backing Israel, we can influence our governments and how they deal with Israel.

The U.S. is also funding the Gazan populace, fully separating them from Hamas is not reality. But my point is more the way leftists speak about the issue actually goes so far that Israelis have completely tuned out these voices, and so whatever influence you hoped to create has fallen on deaf ears. They're also ignore concerns and realities that Jews and others around the world consider when discussing the issue.

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2. Who is benefiting from no cease fire? Netanyahu, as long as the war is going Israeli’s have to unite behind him and he won’t be pushed out of office.

who is being hurt by it? The Palestinians, they’ve already lost over 15,000 civilians and many more permanently injured. The Israeli’s, the war is putting them at greater risk because Hamas is firing rockets and it’s increasing tensions with Hezbolla and the Houtis. The hostages, they’ve already lost dozens in the war and even the idf can’t secure their safety as they already accidentally killed 3. 

I agree with you, but who benefits from a ceasefire? No one except Hamas. What does a ceasefire achieve except a continuation in the pattern we've seen for over 70 years? Fighting will stop, Hamas will rebuild power and weaponry. Then they will orchestrate another attack. Israelis will be livid, and then kill just as many Palestinian civilians again. Expecting anything different is living in a fantasy world.

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3. why should Israel not be pressured to ceasefire? Every country except for the USA and Israel backed a ceasefire resolution. In the USA even though the majority support Israel, a significant majority polled said they want a ceasefire. The governments are supposed to represent the people. If the people want a ceasefire, they should be pressuring Israel for it.

See my above point. A ceasefire achieves nothing except a temporary pause in violence which then leads to ultimately more violence. If you care about Palestinian civilians, you should actually be for Hamas being destroyed and creating space for a different possibility.

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4. If the Palestinians had a path to a state before this and Israel was willing to deal with Hamas politically this wouldn’t have happened. Do you think oct 7 happened out of nowhere, or perhaps the fact the blockade on Gaza had almost half of the population unemployed, most water resources contaminated, thousands of Gazans killed in just the last 20 years every time Israel bombarded Gaza, and hundreds injured or killed when Gazans attempted a peaceful protest in 2018, all had something to do with it.

Hamas is not exactly the greatest representative of the Palestinians to work with. To pretend that Hamas was an honest peace broker in the region is ridiculous. I can concede that Israel has been the aggressor under certain circumstances, but let's not act like Hamas has not been complicit. This fantasy world from the leftists is exactly what I'm talking about. In any event, it's better to focus on what's happening today. How do we actually get somewhere? You can argue back and forth for centuries about who is more at fault, and it will only pull both sides further apart. 

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5. Who on breaking points, tyt, Sam Seder, or any other major progressive show suggested this, give me an example.

All of them suggest this. I don't have the time to start scouring over hours of video. If you've seen a different representation from them, please show me. Edit: I didn't realize you responded to me point by point and were referring to the move to America bit. That's something I've read here and in different threads online. Even the YT progressives aren't this insane.

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why do you find random Internet progressive opinions ridiculous as compared to what Israel is currently doing, they just killed by their own admittance well over 10K civilians and are now saying they are on the verge of a 7 front war. They openly say they will blockade any ability for the Palestinians to have a state. Let’s say Israel gets to do whatever they want, which is basically what’s happening, they’re headed for a situation where they’ve orphaned thousands in Gaza and West Bank, made the blockade and occupation even more brutal and strict, and will further refuse an political solution. Even if they destroy Hamas, a new group, probably even worse will emerge. That’s not even mentioning if they pull Iran and Syria into a war, they just assassinated a top Iranian general in Syria. Unlike progressive online opinions, this is literally what is happening right now.

You see, unlike many pro Palestinian voices I actually have shown concern about and condemned many of Israel's actions and strategies. I've acknowledged many times that they need to be more careful when dealing with civilians. 

When looking at the actions of Hamas, it's very easy to understand the motives. Kill as many as possible and cause as much mayhem as possible in a short time. Unfortunately, Israel's actions can't be deciphered as easily. We don't know the motivation behind every single action. There are many voices, commanders, leaders and players to contend with. Trying to find an overall direction is impossible. It's also difficult to decipher exactly what happened in every situation. Couple that with more military footage than in any other time in history, and it becomes a very novel and painful to watch situation.

Re: Iran, again you aren't contending with reality. Iran and Syria are much weaker than they appear. 

Re: New Hamas group. Entirely possible. What I believe should happen is that a UN peacekeeping force is present in Gaza until tensions die down. Perhaps this will create space for a more moderate government to take shape there. For progress to be made, the international community will actually need to help with feet on the ground. This includes the surrounding Arab nations. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by hundreth

[kenway]

3 hours ago, hundreth said:

Do I think Israel has a policy to kill as many civilians as possible?

 

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No one is saying that.

 

It's not a ridiculous conclusion.

Either the IDF is incredibly incompetent at avoiding civilian casualties, or incredibly competent at creating them.

[Raze]

35 minutes ago, hundreth said:

The U.S. is also funding the Gazan populace, fully separating them from Hamas is not reality. But my point is more the way leftists speak about the issue actually goes so far that Israelis have completely tuned out these voices, and so whatever influence you hoped to create has fallen on deaf ears. They're also ignore concerns and realities that Jews and others around the world consider when discussing the issue.

Giving aid to civilians isn’t the same as supporting Hamas militarily. 

 The left, and even the right frankly, have been predicting this forever. We already settled into a pattern of Israel refuses to budge and offer a path to peace and ending the blockade, hamas attacks usually because of Israeli provocations the media refuses to consider, Israel bombards Gaza. The only difference is Hamas pulled off a much bigger attack. Israel’s government decided it seeks expansion over security and the population completely fell for the demonization, they cannot be reached at this point. The majority of Israeli’s now support Gazans being expelled, they want ethnic cleansing. The left cannot convince them, they can only pressure the US to pressure Israel. 

35 minutes ago, hundreth said:

I agree with you, but who benefits from a ceasefire? No one except Hamas. What does a ceasefire achieve except a continuation in the pattern we've seen for over 70 years? Fighting will stop, Hamas will rebuild power and weaponry. Then they will orchestrate another attack. Israelis will be livid, and then kill just as many Palestinian civilians again. Expecting anything different is living in a fantasy world.

That’s only if the ceasefire is all that is done. If efforts are made to actually create a path to a political solution, it may be avoided. Also as I’ll explain later, not having a ceasefire doesn’t lead to a different outcome either. 
 

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See my above point. A ceasefire achieves nothing except a temporary pause in violence which then leads to ultimately more violence. If you care about Palestinian civilians, you should actually be for Hamas being destroyed and creating space for a different possibility.

Hamas emerged due to the conditions the Palestinians are in and engage in violence because they don’t have a political solution. Even if Hamas is destroyed, the conditions are there for another similar violent group to take its place.

calls to destroy hamas by the Israeli government is clearly just to give them a war aim that justified indefinitely extending the war and engaging in as much ethnic cleansing as possible, how exactly do we know when hamas is destroyed? It is an ideology. Many former IDF and Israeli politicians themselves openly admit it’s unclear if Israel can completely destroy hamas. How many decades of violence should we support them to see if they can pull it off?

Even if a cease fire causes just a temporary pause in violence, that is more than worth it. It could mean saving the lives of the hostages and create space for diplomacy. Israel has slaughtered 20,000 Palestinians and is on the verge to double that, so saying they should at least consider taking a break between this means I don’t care their lives? Doesn’t really make sense. 

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Hamas is not exactly the greatest representative of the Palestinians to work with. To pretend that Hamas was an honest peace broker in the region is ridiculous. I can concede that Israel has been the aggressor under certain circumstances, but let's not act like Hamas has not been complicit. This fantasy world from the leftists is exactly what I'm talking about. In any event, it's better to focus on what's happening today. How do we actually get somewhere? You can argue back and forth for centuries about who is more at fault, and it will only pull both sides further apart. 

It is simple logic that creating worse conditions than the conditions that created Hamas will not be beneficial in the long term.

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All of them suggest this. I don't have the time to start scouring over hours of video. If you've seen a different representation from them, please show me. Edit: I didn't realize you responded to me point by point and were referring to the move to America bit. That's something I've read here and in different threads online. Even the YT progressives aren't this insane.

If no one of real influence is suggesting it, it doesn’t matter and sounds like a deflection. 
 

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When looking at the actions of Hamas, it's very easy to understand the motives. Kill as many as possible and cause as much mayhem as possible in a short time. Unfortunately, Israel's actions can't be deciphered as easily. We don't know the motivation behind every single action. There are many voices, commanders, leaders and players to contend with. Trying to find an overall direction is impossible. It's also difficult to decipher exactly what happened in every situation. Couple that with more military footage than in any other time in history, and it becomes a very novel and painful to watch situation.

That’s actually the opposite of what’s true. Israel’s motives are very clear and obvious as we can see their direct plans, they regularly make statements directly to the media or that get leaked to the media. You just have to ignore the obvious propaganda.

Hamas on the other hand is much harder to understand. Your description of their motives shows this, they aren’t wild animals without a plan, they have clear motivations and tactics for what they are doing. What I keep trying to explain is they engage in violence because political avenues for them are blocked as Israel refuses to negotiate with them because they don’t want to lead towards a state and considered them a terrorist organization. It’s a obvious ploy to justify backing them into a corner so they use violence to further justify Israel in refusing a state and bombarding Gaza. 
 

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Re: Iran, again you aren't contending with reality. Iran and Syria are much weaker than they appear. 

Re: New Hamas group. Entirely possible. What I believe should happen is that a UN peacekeeping force is present in Gaza until tensions die down. Perhaps this will create space for a more moderate government to take shape there. For progress to be made, the international community will actually need to help with feet on the ground. This includes the surrounding Arab nations. 

 

- that doesn’t matter, a war with Hezbollah and Houti’s will kill many Israeli’s even if they win, these groups have far more soldiers and resources than Hamas and Israel would have to fight them both at once while also being tied up in Gaza and trying to suppress the West Bank from fighting back while settlers murder them. 

- Israel already rejected a third party or joint occupying force in Gaza. A moderate government is not going to form after so many have been killed, they are being occupied, and they have no path to a political solution because Israel clearly wants to ethnically cleanse them.
 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Raze

[kenway]

@Nivsch

And to be clear, posting videos of stupid soldiers is pretty mild. The majority of footage coming out of Gaza is just dead Palestinian children all the way down - none of which can be posted here.

 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Hardkill said:

Do you think there should be a permanent ceasefire? Or not yet?

It's not going to happen. Israel wants to wage this war.

People calling for ceasefire are just being naive.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

@Leo Gura Then the West should disown it. Especially Europe. 
Give them Russia treatment and they will come about.

Starting ICT war crime trials making Benjamin wanted like Putin is, sanctions on Israel and cutting diplomatic ties.

Europe especially should do this.

Otherwise they are tolerating Putin like behavior which goes against their fundamental values and principles.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Raze]

21 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not going to happen. Israel wants to wage this war.

People calling for ceasefire are just being naive.

Joe Biden could cause a cease fire with one phone call 

[Vrubel]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not going to happen. Israel wants to wage this war.

People calling for ceasefire are just being naive.

I don't think its a matter of 'wanting' for Israel but a matter of 'needing'.

The only one who wants constant war is Hamas. 

[Hardkill]

44 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not going to happen. Israel wants to wage this war.

People calling for ceasefire are just being naive.

(sighs) Yeah, I figured...

Then why have experienced and pragmatic political leaders in the vast majority of countries around the world have called for a ceasefire? Also, why was the UN resolution supported by an overwhelming majority of the 193-member body of the United Nations?

Should leaders such as Obama, Biden, and Sanders still call for a ceasefire to help inspire the whole world to condemn Israel's actions and win back young voters and racial minorities for 2024?

What about putting conditions in aid to Israel?

Edited December 29, 2023 by Hardkill

[Vrubel]

@Hardkill Bernie Sanders is against ceasefire with Hamas. 

[Hardkill]

11 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

@Hardkill Bernie Sanders is against ceasefire with Hamas. 

I know, but should he change his mind about it to help the Democratic party win back the young voters and racial minority voters they've already lost? 

Besides, he, Warren, and a number of other establishment Dems in Congress agree that Congress should put certain conditions in aid to Israel instead of just giving it a "blank check". After all, why does Israel really need it?

Edited December 29, 2023 by Hardkill

[Raze]

17 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

@Hardkill Bernie Sanders is against ceasefire with Hamas. 

No he isn’t https://www.sanders.senate.gov/press-releases/news-sanders-urges-president-biden-to-withdraw-support-for-10-1-billion-in-military-aid-to-israel-and-support-un-efforts-for-a-humanitarian-ceasefire/

[hundreth]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

The left, and even the right frankly, have been predicting this forever. We already settled into a pattern of Israel refuses to budge and offer a path to peace and ending the blockade, hamas attacks usually because of Israeli provocations the media refuses to consider, Israel bombards Gaza. The only difference is Hamas pulled off a much bigger attack. Israel’s government decided it seeks expansion over security and the population completely fell for the demonization, they cannot be reached at this point. The majority of Israeli’s now support Gazans being expelled, they want ethnic cleansing. The left cannot convince them, they can only pressure the US to pressure Israel. 

Right, everything is Israel's fault. It's always because of Israeli provocations. Yada yada. Has nothing to do with rockets being sent over every single day. Nothing to do with tunnels being built into Israel and attacks being planned / orchestrated. This is what I mean. Zero accountability and this is why this is ignored by Israelis.

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That’s only if the ceasefire is all that is done. If efforts are made to actually create a path to a political solution, it may be avoided. Also as I’ll explain later, not having a ceasefire doesn’t lead to a different outcome either. 

How many times has this pattern played out already? Gazans attack, Israel retaliates, ceasefire. When has any path been laid out? Why would this time be any different than any of the others? Netanyahu has no incentive to change anything during a ceasefire. Hamas has no incentive to change anything. The United States has no incentive. Who is going to carve a path forward? At least if Hamas is no longer in power, there is a possibility for change. 

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how exactly do we know when hamas is destroyed?

C'mon, this is simple. Obviously Israel can't destroy the identity or ideology of Hamas. Hamas is effectively destroyed when they no longer have political and military power in the region. If they aren't strong-arming Gazans, something else will take it's place. As you said, it could be good or bad. Hopefully we collectively steer it in the right direction.

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- Israel already rejected a third party or joint occupying force in Gaza. A moderate government is not going to form after so many have been killed, they are being occupied, and they have no path to a political solution because Israel clearly wants to ethnically cleanse them.

If Israel rejected it, this is where pressure should be placed. A peacekeeping force will need to be in the region for some time until tensions die and the opportunity presents itself. You're convinced you know what "Israel" wants. Israel is a diverse nation, things could be different a year from today when Netanyahu may no longer be in power. It's hard to say what will happen. I hope for the best.

I didn't respond to everything you wrote, just trying to focus on where we probably have the most disagreement.

[Karmadhi]

@Vrubel When you have killed mostly women and childreen any humane and sane government would realize the way they are conducting the war is flawed and change tactics.

Israel doubles down on it because their goal is to punish all Palestinians because they see all of them responsible.

Apparently 90% civilian death rate is fine for them.

Maybe a change of tactics?

This is not self defense it is ethnic cleansing and collective punishment. Anything else is pure delusion

Funny enough Hamas had a higher soldier death rate than Israel does (400 soldiers out of 1200 total dead)

Let that sink in….

Edited December 29, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Raze]

22 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Right, everything is Israel's fault. It's always because of Israeli provocations. Yada yada. Has nothing to do with rockets being sent over every single day. Nothing to do with tunnels being built into Israel and attacks being planned / orchestrated. This is what I mean. Zero accountability and this is why this is ignored by Israelis.

Again you are strawmanning. What you fail to consider is 1) the US funds the IDF not Hamas, it makes sense to focus on what we ourselves are involved in and 2) Israel is the occupying and blockading force, so yes they hold more blame

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How many times has this pattern played out already? Gazans attack, Israel retaliates, ceasefire. When has any path been laid out? Why would this time be any different than any of the others? Netanyahu has no incentive to change anything during a ceasefire. Hamas has no incentive to change anything. The United States has no incentive. Who is going to carve a path forward? At least if Hamas is no longer in power, there is a possibility for change. 

Why would Hamas no longer being in power create a possibility for change if as you said every other faction isn’t incentivized to change? Lets assume Hamas is replaced by a party that gives up armed resistance, what changes, they already have that in the West Bank with the PLO and they’re seemingly on the verge of getting replaced by a armed resistance faction given their massive unpopularity, its only not happening because of the IDF’s brutal repression.
 

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C'mon, this is simple. Obviously Israel can't destroy the identity or ideology of Hamas. Hamas is effectively destroyed when they no longer have political and military power in the region. If they aren't strong-arming Gazans, something else will take it's place. As you said, it could be good or bad. Hopefully we collectively steer it in the right direction.

No it’s not simple. The reason Oct 7 happened was because Israel thought it took out Hamas’s ability to stage attacks so they loosened guards in the Gazan border.

Hamas being thrown out of power isn’t going to make it any easier to steer things in the right direction. Israel doesn’t want to change directions which is why they refused to deal with Hamas politically which is why Hamas resorts to violence. 

You’re also ignoring the main argument for the cease fire, it is for humanitarian reasons, there are hundreds of thousands of Gaza’s at risk of starvation, they are amputating the limbs off of children without anesthesia. Even putting aside long term political goals, a cease fire even if temporary is the correct option to save tens of thousands of innocent lives. If Israeli’s were the ones being slaughtered no one would say “don’t bother with a cease fire, the fighting will just happen again anyway”.

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Raze

[Minini]

@Leo Gura who cares what Israel wants ?! why do you expect everyone to submit to their desires with no resistance? Societies evolve because people start speaking out against injustices and devilry to create a safe environment for everyone. What's naive is following Israel's selfish deluded desires blindly like what the USA is doing now, what they don't know is that they are literally summoning a demon that will sooner or later come to get them after all the injustices they are committing. 

[Leo Gura]

Just now, Minini said:

who cares what Israel wants ?!

Because they are in charge of that area of the world.

The US is not going to stop this war.

[Minini]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Because they are in charge of that area of the world.

The US is not going to stop this war.

Okay but at least people have the duty to speak out. We shouldn't normalize devilry and selfishness. Holding so much power shouldn't make one immune to criticism or condemnation. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Minini