New War In Israel / Gaza

[Nivsch]

@_Archangel_ Think seriously about what would you do if you have for 15 years to go through countless operations that lead to nothing and when one day your entire village were killed or kidnapped while Gazans citizens are celebrating giving out toffy candies.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

@Raze Not true. hamas will not release the hostages without the military pressure.

Imagine your friends and family were hostages in Syria and think whether you would not flip Syria upside down to release them.

Part of the actions are aimed also to psychological purposes in order to rise the pressure, but you guys are so judgmental when it comes to Israel when you know quite well that you would do the exact same.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Nivsch

[lina]

I feel like any conversations or debates about the validity of this 'war' is just completely worthless at this point. We have witnessed a sufficient amount of barbarism and ill intent from the Israeli gov that no justification or explanation will be acceptable. The only conversation worth having should be about empowering Israelis who reject military service, ask for a ceasfire and demand Netanyahu to step down. These are the only people who have the power to change the situation. There is no hope in western governments, it's only the people inside Israel who can change the scenario, but unfortunately they are a very small minority.

[Nivsch]

5 hours ago, _Archangel_ said:

 Do you realise this line of thinking can be used to justify Hamas right? 

If Israel would harm civilians intentionally I would agree with you, but this is not at all the case.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Nivsch

[_Archangel_]

@Nivsch

5 hours ago, Nivsch said:

To understand something logically like an history lesson is not enough. It is interesting that when it comes to the palestinians responsibility to the problem, the "understanding" here is conceptual and logical almost like to understand dry data and numbers.

History numbers and data is the only way you can make sense of these kind of conflicts.
If this isn't the way the how?

5 hours ago, Nivsch said:

But when it comes to Israel responsibility it is really enough to just read an article about a stupid soldier who robbed a grocery store, to be so attached to it emotionally and throw it on the entire military forces, that by the way, are now sacrifice themselves and their lives in one of the most dangerous and trapped war zones in the world.

Part of them are half kids that are not less deep or less loving than me and you.

Oh no but they are "soldiers", they are just "IDF".

Then by your own logic your are faulty because you are so quick to reduce dead palestinians to "dry data and numbers", but when it comes to Israelis you preach empathy. Observe your double standards

And by the way, i never mentioned specific circumstances or blamed soldiers, they just execute orders. I blame those who make the big decisions.

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

If Israel would harm civilians intentionally I would agree with you, but this is not at all the case.

1000 Israelis dead - intentional  /  approx. 15000 Palestinians dead - not intentional, collateral damage
Observe your double standards

And would you even claim that the west bank occupation is not intentional?

[Nivsch]

35 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

@Nivsch

History numbers and data is the only way you can make sense of these kind of conflicts.
If this isn't the way the how?

The complex relationships between the data are that matter.

About the difference in casulaties see what I think here:

There are no "executions" but isolated more rare cases of criminal activity by idiots can always be when you have tens of thousands of people or soldiers who are also people by the way, anywhere.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Nivsch

[Raze]

6 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Raze Not true. hamas will not release the hostages without the military pressure.

Imagine your friends and family were hostages in Syria and think whether you would not flip Syria upside down to release them.

Part of the actions are aimed also to psychological purposes in order to rise the pressure, but you guys are so judgmental when it comes to Israel when you know quite well that you would do the exact same.

Hamas offered to release all the hostage in exchange for all of Israel’s Palestine prisoners and a cease fire.

[hundreth]

40 minutes ago, Raze said:

Hamas offered to release all the hostage in exchange for all of Israel’s Palestine prisoners and a cease fire.

It's too late for that. Israel's objective is to eliminate Hamas, rightly so. A cease fire achieves nothing except a pause until the next Hamas episode where this entire process repeats. What do you think is going to happen if there's a ceasefire? It's going to last forever? No. Hamas is going to attack again. Israel is going to retaliate again. It won't be pretty. At least eliminating Hamas creates space for something to change.

I want to be clear, that's not to say Israel shouldn't be careful about how they treat civilians. It's apparent there are some Israelis going too far. It very much saddens me. I hope Hamas is eliminated with as little bloodshed as possible. 

Do I think Israel has a policy to kill as many civilians as possible? No. They're killing less than one civilian per bomb dropped. Do I think that they could exercise more caution? Yes. Do some Israelis believe in ethnic cleansing? Yes. Do many Israelis want peace and a two state solution? Yes. 

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Do I think Israel has a policy to kill as many civilians as possible?

No one is saying that.

[hundreth]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

No one is saying that.

There are many saying that in the broader discussion. For example Cenk Uygur repeatedly claimed in his discussion with Destiny that Israel kills as many civilians as possible while creating plausible deniability.

In general I think this was a well done conversation. 

[kenway]

 

[Leo Gura]

Cenk is a blowhard. You can't take him too seriously.

[hundreth]

39 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Cenk is a blowhard. You can't take him too seriously.

He is an echo of a prominent left wing narrative provided by many prominent voices in the space such as Breaking Points, Majority Report, Secular Talk, etc. They all present a very simplistic "Israel are evil mass murderers and Palestinians are all innocent saints, except Hamas which is a distinct minority which cannot and should not be eliminated and the only answer is a ceasefire" story. 

[Nivsch]

19 minutes ago, hundreth said:

He is an echo of a prominent left wing narrative provided by many prominent voices in the space such as Breaking Points, Majority Report, Secular Talk, etc. They all present a very simplistic "Israel are evil mass murderers and Palestinians are all innocent saints, except Hamas which is a distinct minority which cannot and should not be eliminated and the only answer is a ceasefire" story. 

To say they are just simplistic is an assault. Is like saying that flat earthers are just simplify the real picture, no, they are more like turn it upside down.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

14 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

To say they are just simplistic is an assault. Is like saying that flat earthers are just simplify the real picture, no, they are more like turn it upside down.

I personally have no issue with being sympathetic towards Palestinians. The problem for me is that too often I see all the blame placed on the Israelis, no accountability at all for the Palestinian side, and the proposed solutions being 100% concessions from the Israeli side with no regard for the realities on the ground.

Examples:

Q: "What should Israel do??"

"I don't have to answer that, I'm not the one occupying Palestinians"

"How about not bombing Gaza"

"How about a ceasefire?"

"How about giving Palestinians a state immediately with no security assurances for Israelis?"

"How about leaving Palestine and going to America?"

It gets ridiculous, and what could be seen as voices of reason which improve relations instead spur more violence by perpetuating myths that Palestinians will have the whole pie from the river to the sea, that they have no responsibility, that Israelis can do no right and do not belong... and so Israelis have completely tuned them out.

Edited December 28, 2023 by hundreth

[Karmadhi]

Its scary how you pro Israelis conviently ignore all the horrible footage of mistreatment of Palestinians coming out of Gaza daily. 
Imagine back in the day when all the information you had was your local biases newspaper. 
Scary…

[hundreth]

14 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Its scary how you pro Israelis conviently ignore all the horrible footage of mistreatment of Palestinians coming out of Gaza daily. 
Imagine back in the day when all the information you had was your local biases newspaper. 
Scary…

Not ignored at all. Seen, acknowledged, and in some cases condemned. 

[Raze]

51 minutes ago, hundreth said:

He is an echo of a prominent left wing narrative provided by many prominent voices in the space such as Breaking Points, Majority Report, Secular Talk, etc. They all present a very simplistic "Israel are evil mass murderers and Palestinians are all innocent saints, except Hamas which is a distinct minority which cannot and should not be eliminated and the only answer is a ceasefire" story. 

You haven’t actually engaged with any of their opinions or arguments, you’re just straw manning and misunderstanding the points of the pro-Palestinian side and assuming that makes you wiser, it doesn’t.

[Leo Gura]

58 minutes ago, hundreth said:

He is an echo of a prominent left wing narrative provided by many prominent voices in the space such as Breaking Points, Majority Report, Secular Talk, etc. They all present a very simplistic "Israel are evil mass murderers and Palestinians are all innocent saints, except Hamas which is a distinct minority which cannot and should not be eliminated and the only answer is a ceasefire" story. 

YT progressives are pretty foolish people overall.

[hundreth]

7 minutes ago, Raze said:

You haven’t actually engaged with any of their opinions or arguments, you’re just straw manning and misunderstanding the points of the pro-Palestinian side and assuming that makes you wiser, it doesn’t.

I've directly engaged with these opinions and arguments, even in this thread. There have been many detailed back and forths between zazen and I. Sometimes even leading to some level of mutual understanding. This doesn't change the broader discussion though.