I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...

[How to be wise]

@Leo Gura I wouldn’t trust sadhguru too much if I were you.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

@Leo Gura I wouldn’t trust sadhguru too much if I were you.

Trust him for what?

[Adrian colby]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The biggest difference between the consciousness I talk about and Buddhism or enlightenment is that enlightenment is reductionistic. It boils consciousness down to emptiness. Whereas what I am talking about is a top-down, non-reductionistic process of God comprehending itself. When you boil God down to emptiness is as Buddhist methoda do, that's a very different thing and inferior in my book.

Would it help to be recognising or clarifying terms for example: the reductionist process is seeking to concentrate one’s experience back into a singularity which people describe as the empty space, void, bliss and nothingness which is one in the same as ‘awareness’ unto itself. As opposed to the expansionist process of awareness decentrating itself out into distinctions or attributes. Things that it ‘does’ but are not it itself. 

so we’re looking at a principal and attribute. Awareness or infinity and what it does to know itself ( consciousness). The word Consciousness means ‘with knowing’ so the godhead is somewhere between awareness and consciousness where an ability to split into two by making distinctions ( a single idea that becomes the dream of relativity that expands out into the stories that justify its existence through imagination.

while the relative or dream is made of consciousness, consciousness is also the projection of the awareness, through the godhead into the dream to have an immersive experience to know itself by becoming everything that it is not ( or by creating things in order to know itself by its attributes or what it is capable of doing) because it cannot and never will have the ability to see itself.

when a person chases enlightenment they find emptiness. They go back and forth from the state or sometimes get stuck in that cycle but getting over that means realising the exploration of the dream and all the possibilities because in the emptiness there are no possibilities only potential. Consciousness work is the exploration of infinite possibility and infinite states. Reaching beyond the human state is what some would refer to as raising consciousness, expanding consciousness or ascension? This is a further stage beyond realizing awareness as infinity or the Self. It’s moving on to the exploration of infinity as conscious states within the relative ( by relative im not condensing that to just the earth or our perception of physicality but I include all possible realms that can be explored)

 

so you’re exploring different states of knowing on a spectrum that concentrate back to the godhead? You’re exploring the godhead or the construction of the dream. You’ve already become infinity itself as the absolute so knowing that requires exploring its attributes ( consciousness) ?

[OBEler]

@Leo Gura @Leo Gura 

There was a thread a while ago about a forum member asking Ralston about solipsism. A part of his answer:

"Clearly, I am a function of your imagination because you've never even met me and so make up all sorts of things you imagine are me or true of me. But that is really about your experience, not a universal reality, and again it is not relevant, except for knowing that you are making stuff up.
Oh, by the way, either Leo is wrong or you misunderstood or misrepresented his communication. In either case, reducing such matters to a conclusion and a mythical story only serves to distract from any reality that might be true. Only direct consciousness makes a difference."

He has clearly a complete different standpoint than you,  or is here a misinterpretation? How could you see him on same level of awakening like you if you contradic each other so strong? 

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, Adrian colby said:

Would it help to be recognising or clarifying terms for example: the reductionist process is seeking to concentrate one’s experience back into a singularity which people describe as the empty space, void, bliss and nothingness which is one in the same as ‘awareness’ unto itself. As opposed to the expansionist process of awareness decentrating itself out into distinctions or attributes. Things that it ‘does’ but are not it itself. 

so we’re looking at a principal and attribute. Awareness or infinity and what it does to know itself ( consciousness). The word Consciousness means ‘with knowing’ so the godhead is somewhere between awareness and consciousness where an ability to split into two by making distinctions ( a single idea that becomes the dream of relativity that expands out into the stories that justify its existence through imagination.

while the relative or dream is made of consciousness, consciousness is also the projection of the awareness, through the godhead into the dream to have an immersive experience to know itself by becoming everything that it is not ( or by creating things in order to know itself by its attributes or what it is capable of doing) because it cannot and never will have the ability to see itself.

when a person chases enlightenment they find emptiness. They go back and forth from the state or sometimes get stuck in that cycle but getting over that means realising the exploration of the dream and all the possibilities because in the emptiness there are no possibilities only potential. Consciousness work is the exploration of infinite possibility and infinite states. Reaching beyond the human state is what some would refer to as raising consciousness, expanding consciousness or ascension? This is a further stage beyond realizing awareness as infinity or the Self. It’s moving on to the exploration of infinity as conscious states within the relative ( by relative im not condensing that to just the earth or our perception of physicality but I include all possible realms that can be explored)

 

so you’re exploring different states of knowing on a spectrum that concentrate back to the godhead? You’re exploring the godhead or the construction of the dream. You’ve already become infinity itself as the absolute so knowing that requires exploring its attributes ( consciousness) ?

What you said was so hard for me to follow so I cannot agree or disagree.

I'm inclinded to say no.

17 minutes ago, OBEler said:

@Leo Gura @Leo Gura 

There was a thread a while ago about a forum member asking Ralston about solipsism. A part of his answer:

"Clearly, I am a function of your imagination because you've never even met me and so make up all sorts of things you imagine are me or true of me. But that is really about your experience, not a universal reality, and again it is not relevant, except for knowing that you are making stuff up.
Oh, by the way, either Leo is wrong or you misunderstood or misrepresented his communication. In either case, reducing such matters to a conclusion and a mythical story only serves to distract from any reality that might be true. Only direct consciousness makes a difference."

He has clearly a complete different standpoint than you,  or is here a misinterpretation? How could you see him on same level of awakening like you if you contradic each other so strong? 

1) I don't know what his position is. It is not clear from your quote.

2) Yes, Ralston and I have some major disagreements which will leave you scratching your head. But like I said before, you will get that quite often between spiritual teachers, so this is par for the course.

I would underscore that your experience is absolute reality. Have you ever encounted anything which is not your experience? I haven't. If you do, let me know.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Osaid]

Lol, you guys can't send half-quotes when it comes to arguments about enlightenment ?

It's like deciphering hieroglyphs, all the details matter

Edited August 6, 2023 by Osaid

[OBEler]

@Leo Gura @Leo Gura @Leo Gura

From the quote it should be clear what the biggest difference is between you and ralston, I highlighted it ("But that is really about your experience, not a universal reality") 

You think, that if you dont perceive Peter Ralston in your limited human perspective, he doesnt exist at all. Not for you, not for me, not for Peter Ralston and not in the whole universe. He is deleted from shared reality and universally gone. 

Peter Ralston says something complete different:  even if something is not in his experience, then yes it then does not exist for him at all. But it exists from the universal perspective. 

Here is the link to the post:

 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2023 by OBEler

[Leo Gura]

@OBEler So I read Ralston's response which you linked.

Ralston characterized my position as intellectual speculation. However my claim is that you can become directly conscious that all others are your own imagination. And in fact, they must be, since you are God and God is an absolutely sovereign mind. If you didn't create all others, who did? If someone else did, then you are not God. As your consciousness rises you take more and more responsibility over your creation. Until you realize that EVERYTHING is your creation. And that's the moment of your complete God-Realization. When you reach this point it will feel shockingly solipsistic. Painful at first. But you get over it.

What I said above is not my speculation or theory. It is what I have become directly conscious of, at great pains.

I agree with Ralston that none of this can be taken on faith nor intellectually understood. Either you become directly conscious of it or not. And it does absolutely no good to ask another to validate this for you since that would beg the question. Whether Ralston confirms or denies what I said, that is ultimately just more of your dream and there is absolutely no way around that. Because dreaming is all you are.

God is an Infinite Dream. If Ralston doesn't understand this, I don't know what he's doing with his work. Which is why I have warned you many times that almost no one on this planet understands God or is AWAKE.

But again, you have no way of knowing which of us is right. Other than through your own awakenings.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Leo Gura

[OBEler]

@Leo Gura ok your claim is, that your little human perspective is all there is. So if you as Leo in his bubble doesnt perceive Ralston, Ralston doesnt exist at all. For no one. Not even in Gods infinite mind.  Your limited perspective is all there is.there is no trick that in your subconscious mind or somewhere else in reality Ralston is existing. 

But you also said in infinity of gods, that there exist other infinite sovereign gods. So Ralston could co-exist as one of them.

So could it not be that you as God split yourself into infinite gods and they all coexist in God and they all syncronize. So if God 1 with avatar Leo pretends not to perceive God 2 with Avatar Peter, Peter still exists, even when Leo cannot perceive him. But God 1 can, which is syncronized with all other Gods. It's just that God 1 tricks his Avatar Leo not to perceive Peter. But he is there, the whole time in God 1 and also in God 2. 

As an analogy: Why not like a multiplayer online game where everyone is a programmer (God) and has a self developed game. This game could be anything. But this self developed game can be played with others if they all have a similar game with similar graphic and level Design developed by themselves alone and are syncronized and up to date with each other. they then coexist together in a virtual game on a meta level but each programmer is still complete sovereign. He can create everything He wants. He just decided not to do so. 

So this example shows that it is possible to be sovereign (you developed your game yourself) but still on a meta level coexist with others (they build similar game like your and they all mirror each other). I think on your infinity of gods video you gave this analogy too. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by OBEler

[Leo Gura]

@OBEler I suggest you explore all that and come to your own conclusion.

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, OBEler said:

As an analogy: Why not like a multiplayer online game where everyone is a programmer (God) and has a self developed game. This game could be anything. But but this self developed game can be played with others if they all have a similar game with similar graphic and level Design developed and are syncronized and up to date with each other. they then coexist together in a virtual game on a meta level but are Sovereign mind. 

If that's true, become conscious of it. Otherwise it's a fantasy.

Try to actually become conscious of anything outside yourself.

[OBEler]

@Leo Gura ok I see the misunderstanding here I think, you wont talk here about an abstract meta perspective. 

I can see from an abstract meta point of view that all this is possible. You dont want to choose the meta perspective

 

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by OBEler

[Leo Gura]

@OBEler Just be careful with your abstractions because they are not Awakening.

I have no problem imagining all sorts wacky plans for how reality might work. But then there's Awakening.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Yimpa]

Here’s a giant hint: YOU are dreaming Peter Ralston and Leo Gura into existence 

Or maybe it’s a small hint, whatever floats your boat.

[OBEler]

@Yimpa as a function in my ego-mind or as "real" people with their thoughts, experiences etc even if I as little ego cannot see them right now? 

[OBEler]

@Leo Gura Yeah I think here lies the misunderstanding. 

You talk about awakening which is 100% direct, but sometimes you talk about abstract perspectives. Peter Ralston switches also between these two. 

So if someone has a spiritual question, it can be answered from the perspective of awakening or with abstract perspectives.

Abstract perspectives are fantasys, but might be true (some of them never can be validated) . Awakening perspective is 100% true always. 

I hope I got it

[Leo Gura]

@OBEler When it comes to this specific issue you need direct consciousness/awakening, not abstractions.

You can do abstractions for other, less existential issues.

You can have an awakening specifically into the question: What is other?

That's what you're after here. Ralston is right to emphasize that speculation on this matter is a waste of time. Moreover, adopting solipsism as a belief is likely to create needless suffering for you, as you start to feel isolated and depressed.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Leo Gura

[OBEler]

@Leo Gura hmmm Peter Ralston says the same I think. You and Peter Ralston are then on a same level when it comes to this specific Issue. 

Got to read his book again

Edited August 7, 2023 by OBEler

[Leo Gura]

@OBEler If you haven't had direct consciousness of what another is, then it's best to just admit to yourself, "I don't know", rather than inventing speculative stories.

Also, I suggest that you try to gain direct conscious of what it is I'm pointing to when I say that God is Absolute Solipsism. And then after you grasp that, try to push yourself further and see if you can find a consciousness that's even beyond that! Maybe you can't. And maybe you can. Give it a try. This is good territory to explore in your trips. In this way you will avoid falling into the trap of believing me or Ralston.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Water by the River]

On 5.8.2023 at 1:29 PM, Leo Gura said:

@Water by the River Thanks for the details.

You mentioned Mahamudra/Dzogchen daily practice. In brief, what does that entail?

I'm guessing Kriya yoga would be more effective than sitting meditation. Which is why I recommended it in the past. Personally I have found that sitting meditation is absurdly ineffective unless it's done for a week at a time like a non-stop retreat. If I meditate nonstop on a retreat for 7-10 days then some interesting shifts in consciousness start to become possible. But it's such a pain in the ass to do.

The problem I have with daily non-sitting meditation is that it interferes with intellectual/creative work. I don't understand how anyone does that and achieves any kind of work but manual labor. And frankly even that seems challenging.

Let me try to answer your questions as brief as possible. That is challenging, because the Mahamudra system is technically very complex with many stages. I like to compare Zen/Theravada to cutting a tree with an axe, while Mahamudra is something like a forest harvester: The axe was available already in stone-age and worked, robust and slow. The forest harvester needs precise handling and thorough understanding & training, but is waaay faster.

Anyway, lets try the impossible at least roughly. Here is my main thread of the explanation on Mahamudra in the Pointing out the Great Way style (Daniel Brown, 600 page book, around 200-300 pages on the juicy main-practice-stages of Mahamudra). 

To give you an idea/feeling (not really possible to do in brief, but I try): The description of two main steps:

Stage 1 of 4, Skill of Recognition

Stage 3 of 4, Yoga of One Taste (One Taste = Nondual)

 

Lets start with Stage 1 of 4, Skill of Recognition

It is a "High-Speed-Search-Task into Nature of thoughts, into the "Unfindability/Emptiness" of thoughts. They evaporate when looking into their nature. 

• The nature of every emerging thought/concept, emerging out of Infinite Consciousness/Absolute Reality): And the nature of thoughts is its unfindability: Thoughts have no location, they are "made"/essence out of Infinite Consciousness. Thoughts dissolve when looking into their nature (Aware Empty Infinite Consciousness). One can never "find" a thought. They dissolve when looking into their essence. They move within onself, and dissolve when looking into them And that process/phenomenon is used.
• and with that cutting off (=Trekchö), since its nature is empty Infinite Consciousness/Suchness. Consciousness literally stops the thought then.

At one point when one is fast enough, one sees the order of emergence IN the Infinite Mind is

1. Understanding or just some other cause
2. Thought emergence (fully formed, fully emerging in mili-seconds, but not yet "elaborated-out" over several seconds)
3. being elaborated out over a part of a second to several seconds)

And step 3 doesn't happen then. It is cut off. THAT is was brings Awakened States (nondual, boundless, basically if done fast enough. The thought "capsules" start emerging faster and faster then, 10-20 thoughts capsules per second+, and at some point Awareness stays "on top" of even that. That is where the magic starts (Nonduality begins developing, and the mindstream can get silent, bliss starts flowing. A very discrete and "hard" psychological process).

On 13.5.2023 at 8:49 PM, Water by the River said:

Skill of Recognition: (1. Yoga of Mahamudra system)

• Now it gets interesting. That was the decisivepoint for me once I understood that, and implemented it. Afterwards, it started to get nondual pretty soon...
• If you look HOW the thoughts emerge,
  • (1) out of what they emerge,
  • (2) what they are,
  • (3) in what they move
  • (4) into what they disappear
    • ALL of that (1)(2)(3)(4) must be present. Thoughts DO appear. From "something". Stay in "something". Consisting of "something"
    • All of that is Emptiness, or Consciousness, or Nothingness. Thoughts are made of "that","move in that", "dissolve into that".
    • and you will never SEE that, or can say what it is. Nothing. But not a blank nothing. An aware Nothing. Actually the essence of all world-appearances, but that comes later, when it gets nondual, at the Yoga of One Taste.
• What happens if you investigate into emerging thoughts this way, is that they get FASTER. VERY FAST. Like 20-30 emergent thoughts/feeling arisings per second, most of them rudimentary. The mind does this to keep the illusion going. To make it too fast for you. But at some point, you learned to get that fast also...
  • Basically, looking into a thought, one sees its Emptiness/Nothingness (one doesn't find the thought, it evaporates). It is cut off. Dzogchen calls this cutting off "Trekchö".
  • Daniel Brown called this stage a "High Speed Search Task into the unfindability of the nature of thoughts". A High Speed Search task into their emptiness, into their nature as consciousness, as Nothingness.
  • So the emerging gets fast, very fast. Daniel Ingram also mentions that. But at some point, with enough practice and familiarity, YOU get faster. You spot and cut off every very fast, subtle, fragmentary thought arising. None of them "grips" you anymore, since you have seen them all, and their structure. Just thoughts arising very fast.
    • You don't control which thoughts arise. Depended origination, they are just emerging by themselves.
    • You can focus on just their arising (of thoughts), just their staying, just their going away.
    • At some point, they just emerge, looking into their nature is automatic, and they immediately dissolve. No duration. Just emergence, and poof gone. And when you are fast enough, you get a continuance of staying mindful. When that happens its pretty clear what happened. Your attention got so fast that you can stay mindful even through the high-speed thought emergence.
    • At the end, they come very fast, they don't get "elaborated out". Thinking, or elaborating the thoughts out, is slower than their emergence. They emerge already fully complete with their content, and then slowly get "talked/elaborated" in your mind. 
      • Natural reaction: So WHO the f*** am I (pardon my french) when I
        • don't control what thoughts emerge and
        • if they appear fully with their content in a fraction of a second, and get elaborated later in a hypnotic show over several second?
        • good question... to be answered later.
• Outcome is: 
  • You know the nature of every possible thought (Consciousness-Emptiness-Nothingness), of the whole mental-continuum of thoughts, all that there can be. Their nature.
  • you can cut off or transcend/just watch your normal mindstream in most daily situations without getting caught up/hypnotized by it, which already here leads to a lot of bliss. Not sufficient bliss to get ones separate self completely handled, but already quite wonderful. That is the start of real freedom.
  • You know how your mindstream hypnotizes you, and gets faster when you actually look into each thought arising and its nature.
  • At some point you get fast enough to cut off every arising, or let it elaborate in a controlled aka mindful way.

 

And that happens in the beginning phases still on the pillow, but can also happen very much in daily life when intensive thought activity is not necessary. Later, it becomes also possible with sophisticated intellectual/creative thinking, when Awareness has become strong enough to stay lucid THROUGH the thought-elaboration. No longer hypnotized, the creative/intellectual happening within oneself on auto-pilot. Awakened Awareness and its Infinite Intelligence tends to take over, the separate-self/ego gets out of the way. That makes it also much more effective, since the ego/separte-self tended to act as a filter. From this Awakenened Awareness all intelligence and creativity comes from anyway, that is why creativity is so highly valued and pleasurable. This Awakened Awareness is the source of bliss anyway....

So, then the next step described in this post (Stage 2, see link above, jumped due to the specific question of Leo for "daily" practice:

Stage 3 of 4, Yoga of One Taste. One Taste = Nondual boundless consciousness. Getting that into daily life. When enough proficiency of creating lucid states with this High-Speed-Cutoff is generated, the Awareness/Lucidity doesn't get lost when thinking. It stays. And with it the Awakened States. And then daily life starts getting nondual, especially if no academic thinking is necessary (still large parts of the day).  With academic style thinking/creative thinking, it takes more Lucidity/Training, but is doable.  

 

On 13.5.2023 at 8:49 PM, Water by the River said:

Yoga of One Taste (3. Yoga of Mahamudra System)

• So here it gets nondual and mere appearance, floating in Nothingness. No more a solid and external/duality reality "out there" anymore. But an infinite limitless field of Infinite Consciousness, manifesting an appearing world of mere appearances arising in it. A loving blissful boundless timeless field of  bright lucid Awakened Awareness. This is where probably (my pet-theory) the Endohuasca-System starts working. https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/
• The practice is basically taking the insights of stage 2 and putting them into practice, specifically also in daily everyday life.
  • With that, one gets enough time and momentum in meditation to really make the difference, to get it nondual. To make all that with sitting meditation on the pillow, at least for me it would have been a full-time job. And I did a demanding career and some other stuff in the meantime also...
• The view taken
  • all thoughts/mental events emerge in the Always Here Mind, or Simultaneous Mind (which means nondual). 
  • same with all world appearances.
  • The essence of all thoughts is emptiness/consciousness, and the essence of all visual field appearances is also emptiness/appearance/consciousness. That is called the "One Taste" of every arising (thought or world-appearance). Nondual in other words.
• and being aware of the emerging high-speed stream of thoughts emerging already with full content, but getting elaborated in the seconds following, and
  • cutting off most of the emergent thoughts by looking into their nature, which has been automized by this point
• enough clarity and mindfulness is generated that at some point
  • The Visual Field/"world": Becomes mere appearance and infinite/limitless
    • becomes mere appearance appearances
      • 1) the world no longer feels "out-there". Everything arising just arises in oneself.
      • 2) appearances loose their solidity. One can not tell if they are solid "objects" out there, or just appearances happening in the timeless Always-Here-Mind
      • 3) At some point later, with a lot of meditation-mindfulness-momentum, the "inside" feeling as pure empty awareness, a very transparent witness, but not even that because the awareness is no longer separate: the visual field becomes really mere appearance.
        • One looks at something, and its just appearance hovering in Nothingness.
        • You feel into it, and its essence is the same as the indescripbable Nothingness behind ones head.
        • luminous mere appearances, very similiar to trip-descriptions.
    • the limit of the visual field, and the wondering of "what is behind it", become limitless or infinite
      • there is "nothing" behind it. One just imagines a border/boundary of the visual field
      • one imagines that something must be behind it (like 3D-Space continues".
        • No, 3D-space is imagined in dimensionless Nothingness/Infinite Consciousness.
        • 3D-Space is not self-existing, dangling out there. That was a biggie for me, took a long time to get, and could have been much faster with coaching. Guess I am quite a visual person
    •  Time is gone. Timeless
      • Everything can only happen here, and now
      • Past is imagined here and now , future also here and now
  •  the "subject"/"me", the separate self Gestalt/arisings, feeling and being separate from the whole Reality,
    • slowly gets transcended and dissolves, more and more aspects of the person/separate self are seen as arisings moving within oneself.
    • finally, after a long path of transcending every identity/I-thought/I-feeling of the Ego/Body-Mind/character, it becomes a transparent witness, nothing but still something witnessing the visual field.
    • At some point, One can't tell AT ALL what one is, nothing positive is left. I am not the body/person, anything. Only aware Emptiness. But somehow some murky Witness or something like that still there. One literally doesn't know what one is, besides the nondual field...
    • One becomes the visual field of mere appearance, one is that in a nondual way.
    • any sense of location or center slowly dissolves. One becomes the whole boundless timeless field of mere empty, groundless appearance. Sometimes lucid and shimmering, like mere appearance.
    • Some traditions call that already Enlightenment, or Kensho/Satori/Awakening. And it is in some way. But Nonduality is not already Full or Great Enlightenment, where there is absolutely no doubt about ones nature, and the nature of reality. That can become clear like ice-cold water thrown in ones face. 
    • Nonduality can be very well experienced by a separate self, just try some psychedelics.... To reach Nonduality sobre without psychdelics, one already has to be quite empty or transcended the separate self, but not necessarily (and normally) fully.
      • With psychedelics, you don't need to empty (or have transcended the separate self) at all. 5 MeO will do that for, even if you don't want. Not fully empty, not the last step (no traces of  Individuality/transparent witness left, see above), but very very much.
    • that brings us to the last stage, Stage 4 of the Mahamudra System, the Yoga of Nonmeditation. And here is where meditation, and the long time it enables in these very empty states of dissolving every last speck of individuality/last very subtle separate self arisings/last very subtle illusions, becomes paramount.  Only this 4. stage enables the final crossing over to fully, without a doubt, knowing what Ones True Self, and Reality, really is. Without that, suffering, grasping for ever more Awakenings, and still being a bit "gaslighting-ability" of the finality of ones realization/awakening, continues.

 

2nd TOPIC OF THIS POST: God-Realization in your words, or "You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality."

And this (Yoga of One Taste) brings us then to the "base camp of Full Enlightenment", the "jumping platform" where Full Enlightenment can happen (some of which main aspects you refer to with God Realization): Stage 4, Yoga of Nonmeditation. I have written elsewhere about it, see link above. The Nondual Stages of Yoga of One Taste would get confirmed in other traditions (Zen for example) as Enlightenment/Satori/Kensho. But not Great/Full Enlightenment, or God-Realization in your wording. That is an "accident", for which Stage 3&4 make accident-prone.

I agree with you that Emptiness/Void is neither God Realization nor Full Enlightenment, where also that "You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality" is realized. I am starting more to understand why you emphasize that in your language/system of experience, and I agree on the importance of it. In Zen, there is a differentiation between just shallower Enlightenments (Kenshos, Satoris) into the empty nature of all appearance, or into emptiness. The separte-self can still be very alive then.

On 5.8.2023 at 8:45 PM, Leo Gura said:

You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality.

The biggest difference between the consciousness I talk about and Buddhism or enlightenment is that enlightenment is reductionistic. It boils consciousness down to emptiness. Whereas what I am talking about is a top-down, non-reductionistic process of God comprehending itself. When you boil God down to emptiness is as Buddhist methoda do, that's a very different thing and inferior in my book.

The Full Enlightenment on the other side, the total dissolution of the separate-self, leaves one with exactly that realization: "You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality." Although there is no more you, nor God, but Reality itself becoming consciousness OF itself IMAGINING itself as all there ever could be.

This Enlightenment is probably between 10-50 less common than the real thing of Full Enlightenment. Probably that is why you are so annoyed with the large majority of Buddhist Enlightenments (either contemporarily claimed or described in literature).

Let me give you four examples of that differentiation (I could give many more, but that would blast the post. Ok, I admit, its already blasted and way too long... forgive me).

1) Huang Po

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangbo_Xiyun

"One Mind

Huángbò's teaching centered on the concept of “mind” (Chinese: hsin), a central issue for Buddhism in China for the previous two centuries or more. He taught that mind cannot be sought by the mind. One of his most important sayings was “mind is the Buddha”. He said:

All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists [red by me]. The One Mind alone is the Buddha, and there is no distinction between the Buddha and sentient beings.[8]

He also said: To awaken suddenly to the fact that your own Mind is the Buddha [Nothing exists beside IT=God=Reality=True You], that there is nothing to be attained or a single action to be performed – this is the Supreme Way.[9]"

2) Yogachara school

https://integrallife.com/toward-fourth-turning-buddhism/

"The very notion of the “not-twoness” of Emptiness and Form opened the door, as we briefly mentioned, to other even “stronger” versions of nonduality or (metaphoric!) Wholeness, one of the most prominent being the Yogachara, introduced by the half‑brothers Asanga (more of a brilliant innovator) and Vasubandhu (more of an acute synthesizer). Another name for their school—Vijnaptimatra—is usually translated as “Mind-only” or “Representation-only.” The point here is that the “not-twoness” of Emptiness and Form allowed some philosopher-sages to come up with other terms for the “Form” that was seamlessly conjoined with ultimate Emptiness or Shunyata, one of them being “Mind” itself. The idea was that “Mind” itself was the same as Emptiness—the Yogachara philosophers were adamant that they were talking about the same “unqualifiable” Emptiness that Nagarjuna was, but by also referring to it as “Mind” they were giving (some would say metaphorically, some would say absolutely) a type of compass that would help relate ultimate Emptiness to an everyday reality everybody was aware of (such as, namely, the Mind). The Zen saying, “The everyday mind, just that is the Tao (ultimate Truth)” is a good example of this type of Yogachara thinking. And it showed clearly how one could “bring everything to the path,” starting with your own, simple, everyday awareness. This opened so many other doors—especially Tantra and Vajrayana—that it is referred to as “The Third Turning of the Wheel of Dharma.”

Buddhism has philosophically run a long way. Hinayana didn't even have the full Nondual Realization of Absolute Reality, Nagarjuna made Madyamaka (nothing can be said about Ultimate Reality). And where did it end? The philosophy all which pretty all sophisticated Tantric Buddhism system rely on? MIND-ONLY, Yogachara.

We need to at least differentiate the 2500 year system of Buddhism into these development steps. If not, we are fighting with a "fossil-philosophy"...

3) The Supreme Source, one of the main texts of Dzogchen (quite close to the Mahamudra above, Brown uses Dzogchen and Mahamudra elements together):

on which breathtaking beautiful absolute perpective you agreed:

On 25.10.2022 at 9:29 PM, Leo Gura said:

@Water by the River That is very good. That guy gets it.

Unfortunately such Buddhists are rarer than hen's teeth. I dare you to find one in real life who will guide you to his level of consciousness in a way you can actually follow.

What you have to keep in mind about such people is they tend to be very gifted. Which is why they are so rare. You are not going to find such a Buddhist at your local retreat.

 

There is gold in Buddhism, Full Enlightenment, God Realization. And tools to make it stable in daily life. The later systems of Tantric Buddhism, but also Mahayana, have at their philosophic core Yogachara or Madhyamaka (I have written on that elsewhere). These two qualifications of Ultimate Reality are in line with what you call God Realization.

4) In Zen 3 pillars of Zen, Kapleau:

Some quotes from that book:

"ROSHI: With a first enlightenment the realization of oneness is usually shallow. Yet if one has genuinely perceived, even though dimly, and continues to practice devotedly for five or ten more years, this inner vision will expand in depth and magnitude as one’s character acquires flexibility and purity."

The story of Bassui:

"You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality."

"This way is no other than the realization of your own Mind. Now what is this Mind? It is the true nature of all sentient beings, that which existed before our parents were born and hence before our own birth, and which presently exists, unchangeable and eternal. So it is called one’s Face before one’s parents were born. This Mind is intrinsically pure. When we are born it is not newly created, and when we die it does not perish. It has no distinction of male or female, nor has it any coloration of good or bad. It cannot be compared with anything, so it is called Buddha-nature. Yet countless thoughts issue from this Selfnature as waves arise in the ocean or as images are reflected in a mirror. To realize your own Mind you must first of all look into the source from which thoughts flow

And: Realization Emptiness, or Void, IS NOT YET FULL ENLIGHTENMENT:

"In this propitious state deepen and deepen the yearning, tirelessly, to the extreme. When the profound questioning penetrates to the very bottom, and that bottom is broken open, not the slightest doubt will remain that your own Mind is itself Buddha, the Void-universe. There will then be no anxiety about life or death, no truth to search for. In a dream you may stray and lose your way home. You ask someone to show you how to return or you pray to God or Buddhas to help you, but still you can’t get home. Once you rouse yourself from your dream-state, however, you find that you are in your own bed and realize that the only way you could have gotten home was to awaken yourself. This [kind of spiritual awakening] is called “return to the origin” or “rebirth in paradise.” It is the kind of inner realization that can be achieved with some training. Virtually all who like zazen and make an effort in practice, be they laypeople or monks, can experience to this degree. But even such [partial] awakening cannot be attained except through the practice of zazen. You would be making a serious error, however, were you to assume that this was true enlightenment in which there is no doubt about the nature of reality. You would be like one who having found copper gives up the desire for gold."

Or: Not yet Full Enlightenment-Realization.

"But even now repeatedly cast off what has been realized, turning back to the subject that realizes, that is, to the root bottom, and resolutely go on. Your Self-nature will then grow brighter and more transparent as your delusive feelings perish, like a gem gaining luster under repeated polishing, until at last it positively illumines the entire universe [infinite nondual mere appearance boundlessness of ones nondual limitless being then]."

"You must understand that anything appearing in your consciousness or seen by your eyes is an illusion [imagined], of no enduring reality. Hence you should neither fear nor be fascinated by such phenomena. If you keep your mind as empty as space, unstained by extraneous matters, no evil spirits can disturb you even on your deathbed. While engaged in zazen, however, keep none of this counsel in mind. You must only become the question “What is this Mind?” or “What is it that hears these sounds?” When you realize this Mind you will know that it is the very source of all Buddhas and sentient beings.

And that ends in Full Enlightenment:

"keep asking with all your strength, “What is it that hears?” Only when you have completely exhausted the questioning will the question burst; now you will feel like someone who has come back from the dead. This is true realization. You will see the Buddhas of all the universes face-to-face and the Dharma Ancestors past and present [they all have been expressions of this Infinite Mind of yours, of the only Reality there is or could be, dreaming up all these worlds]."

There is nothing else than: "You become conscious of God as an Infinite Mind dreaming up reality."

And that becomes stable in daily life when there is no longer a separate-self, but only Reality. God. True Nature. Whatever one wants to call "It" then...

 

And that Ultimate Reality is Impersonal Infinite Consciousness. "It" is both nothing/impersonal, but also everything there could be imagined. It is Reality itself. The True Core of each being. 

As long as something of a remaining separate-self projected on it, its not stable in daily life. The remains of that separate-self will also "colour" all higher insights/realizations. Bliss doesn't flow yet full time, so the suffering will make the being continue and refine anything that is not conforming to this Ultimate Reality, ones True being.

Or according to Huang Po, The One [Infinite] Mind that dreams or imagines it all up all Reality.

Water by the River

 

PS: Ok, yours truly confesses: short is it not, the post.... But please don't hit me too hard, took some time to write, and I got plenty of other things to do also.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Water by the River