The hard problem of epistemology

[Vibroverse]

I don't think that sense experience comes first and then comes thought. I mean where can we even truly draw the line between sense experience and thought? 

[Someone here]

7 minutes ago, Vibroverse said:

I don't think that sense experience comes first and then comes thought. I mean where can we even truly draw the line between sense experience and thought? 

Can you tell the difference between a thought of a million bucks and an actual million bucks ?

[Vibroverse]

4 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Can you tell the difference between a thought of a million bucks and an actual million bucks ?

Well, we know that you cannot tell that difference in your dream state, so how are you so sure that you can make that difference here? 

 

[caspex]

"How do I know anything?"

Truly knowing something means you have become it. Existence is knowing. Let's say you 'know' there is an apple in the next room. But that's not knowledge, that is assumption. Therefore you cannot truly be sure or know it. Let's say the apple is in front of you. You say "The apple is in front of me." do you know that? No! That's an assumption as well. You assume that that's an apple, you assume there's a you, you assume each of the concepts you used in that sentence and various other implicit assumptions. What we call 'knowledge' is a bunch of assumptions, not knowledge. True knowledge means there's no assumption going on. Which is truth. This question arises when one suspects what they know is not really knowing but assumption!
True knowing means the existence of experience beyond assumptions.
You don't know anything! Because 'knowing' isn't based on truth, it just means 'an assumption I am sure of'. You don't know anything because you can't know anything but only become truth.
"Understanding" is simply finding truth. In other words, understanding is God expanding itself.

[Moksha]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

I Agree that what we know is no nowhere near even 1% of all there is to know .

But what do you mean that absolute reality can only be realised directly?  Aren't the senses direct? I'm not talking about perception where there is a perceived and a perceiver (subject &object ). Sensory data is absolute truth .

The senses (touch, taste, smell, sight, sound) are neurological representations of the cosmos, filtered by the sense organs of the creature. Even if the cosmos was absolutely real, the senses are only a second order representation of it. The mental image of a desert cactus is not the actual cactus, just an internal interpretation of it.

Directly, the cosmos isn't objectively real. Its dimensions are subjective, based on the state of the observer. For example, time is not absolute. It passes more slowly for a faster moving object, relative to a slower moving object. This isn't theoretical; we use the fact of relativity to make corrections in navigational systems, for example.

Direct realization is the absolute realizing itself, beyond external phenomena. It awakens to the reality of itself. It is not a sensual experience. The spiritual journey culminates in spiritual realization. How is spirit subject to sensation? It is the absolute realizing itself within the form. As realization deepens, awareness pans out beyond the form, dissolving all apparent boundaries.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Moksha

[Yimpa]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Can you tell the difference between a thought of a million bucks and an actual million bucks ?

Sure, I asked GPT-4 to tell me a short story about it:

Quote

In an inexplicable twist of fate, a horde of one million bucks (yes, the deer) took over the world. It all began when a quirky scientist named Dr. Antler decided to imbue these humble woodland creatures with exceptional intelligence, as a joke to his colleagues. He never expected that these newly enlightened deer would band together and plot a worldwide takeover. Driven by a newfound thirst for power, they organized an intricate web of operations, complete with a deer currency exchange, hoof-made gadgets, and even intricate maps of every forest trail in the world. Overnight, society was turned upside down as these bucks proved they were no 'deer in the headlights'. They assumed every major global office, leading with surprisingly effective eco-friendly policies and an undeniable sense of flair. The world watched in bewilderment, and often stifled laughter, as the age of 'Planet of the Bucks' began.

 

[gettoefl]

1 hour ago, Moksha said:

The senses (touch, taste, smell, sight, sound) are neurological representations of the cosmos, filtered by the sense organs of the creature. Even if the cosmos was absolutely real, the senses are only a second order representation of it. The mental image of a desert cactus is not the actual cactus, just an internal interpretation of it.

Directly, the cosmos isn't objectively real. Its dimensions are subjective, based on the state of the observer. For example, time is not absolute. It passes more slowly for a faster moving object, relative to a slower moving object. This isn't theoretical; we use the fact of relativity to make corrections in navigational systems, for example.

Direct realization is the absolute realizing itself, beyond external phenomena. It awakens to the reality of itself. It is not a sensual experience. The spiritual journey culminates in spiritual realization. How is spirit subject to sensation? It is the absolute realizing itself within the form. As realization deepens, awareness pans out beyond the form, dissolving all apparent boundaries.

beautiful ?

just abide in empty awareness untainted by notions of perceived objects or the perceiving mind

conversely to abide in full awareness, is to think the perceiving mind and the perceived objects into existence

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by gettoefl

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

But isn't thought secondary?  And direct consciousness comes first ? 

How exactly I know how a doorknob work using thoughts?  I know it using accumulated experience. I have to first experience how to open a door then it becomes a memory (thoughts). So direct experience comes first . And thoughts are secondary. 

You need both to understand a doorknob.

[Bazooka Jesus]

7 hours ago, Someone here said:

Can you tell the difference between a thought of a million bucks and an actual million bucks ?

What do you mean when you say "an actual million bucks"? A bunch of colorful printed paper? A 1 followed by six zeros and some money symbol appearing on a screen? A sheet of paper on which someone scribbled the words "this piece of paper is worth one million dollars"?

"A million bucks" is a mental label that you superimpose upon perceived reality, just like any other word or combination of words that you use to describe stuff.

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Bazooka Jesus