Explain to me like I am 5: How is coffee bad for you?

[UnbornTao]

20 minutes ago, Display_Name said:

It's not. Case closed.

Pretty much, generally speaking.

Some may abstain from coffee but drink soda and other crap unhealthy drinks, which doesn't make much sense to me.

14 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Cancer and heart disease.

was going to mention that. 

Isn't excessive red meat consumption in the long-term associated with illnesses like those?

Here, that seems to be considered common knowledge where we generally follow the mediterranean diet.

not to demonize meat. I just bought beef and chicken for the holidays!

[integral]

If your drinking it instead of eating your likely going to put your body in a high cortisol catabolic state.

[RendHeaven]

On 12/20/2022 at 3:19 AM, Michael569 said:

1) So the argument goes that "because polyunsaturated fatty acids (such as linoleic acid and alpha-linolenic acid) have double bonds which makes them more prone to oxidation, they wreak havoc in the body." Would that sum up your position? 

2) Would you also argue that because LA oxidised it causes......cancer? heart disease? Diabetes? 

3) So then would it be fair to say that people with the highest serum (blood) levels of LA would be experiencing these diseases the most? 

4) Final question: Would you take the position that Omega 3s (ALA, EPA and DHA) are healthy? 

@Michael569

1) Yes!

2) Mostly yes. LA oxidized in excess likely is one of the main drivers of cancer and heart disease. Diabetes is a little different, as it has more to do with fructose intake and (lack of) activity. We also know that diabetes in turn spikes your susceptibility to heart disease so it's not purely LA which is the culprit, but a hoard of environmental toxins converging upon the body at once, causing a web of dysfunctions in tandem - excess LA, excess fructose, pesticides, heavy metals, microplastics, etc.

3) Excess LA is obviously increasing risk but doesn't necessary equate strictly to more disease in a particular individual since their antioxidant status and other lifestyle factors have to be taken into account. Someone with a high polyfat intake can somewhat offset their risk of disease with massive fruit and vegetable intake, such that from the outside they appear healthy. It's also important to note that serum levels are unreliable markers of LA accumulation in the body. I've learned that testing adipose tissue is a better metric.

4) Omega 3 is of course necessary as is omega 6. At the end of the day, polyfats, LA, and even oxidation are necessary. The problem is not polyfats per se, the problem is polyfats IN EXCESS. Omega 3 fatty acids in excess would actually be more damaging than LA because they contain more double bonds. But most of us do not encounter this problem because our food supply is not contaminated with excess omega 3 (it is, however, most certainly contaminated with excess omega 6!)

According to my mentor: "Here's the problem with these studies... What do they do? Compare people with high LA intake to low LA intake. But the problem is that the "low LA intake" is actually people consuming more poly fat than that found in nature... So, all you are doing is comparing two groups of people, both with excess LA in their adipose tissue, and the difference being that the people with even more LA are also people who have been doing other "healthy, correct" things like exercising and eating fruits and veggies which actually do help in their own right. In other words, all of these studies were done in people who lived during a time that polyfats were promoted, and even though that is erroneous, the other healthy habits that were being promoted were actually not in fact erroneous. This is how people are getting lost in the weeds on nutritional science. If they studied people who live and eat like us (that is, an unprocessed, high saturated fat diet), this would be game over and these vegetable oil promoters would not be able to sleep at night. Their paradigm would collapse. But people who eat this way are anomalous in the 21st century and don't get studied." 

Edited January 4, 2023 by RendHeaven

[RendHeaven]

@Michael569 I'm fairly familiar with Mr. nutrivore. My understanding is that he has an enormous vegan bias, which, to be fair, is perhaps a reasonable counterweight to my current animal-based bias, but nonetheless let's not forget that of course he is against saturated fat as a default position. He has a horse in this race prior to truthseeking.

It's in his attitude too. His content is rife with ad-hominem attacks and insults flung at those that he disagrees with. I watched just 1 minute of that video you linked, and he already abrasively dismisses the history of seed oils as "fucking cute" and "irrelevant" because he is so hypnotized by the allure of "human outcome studies," which, as I just outlined earlier, have potential fundamental flaws in their question-begging conception. I will watch the whole video later, this is just my initial impressions.

Side note: of course I am not saying to dismiss all studies. They can be useful. However, I just don't understand why anybody would hinge all of their faith in studies given their fallible nature. I've mentioned this elsewhere, but human beings have been consuming animal fats for millennia without a trace of chronic disease. On a common sense level this historical fact should be ringing alarm bells when modern medical experts declare through "studies" that animal fats are the cause of modern disease. It just makes no sense.

Also as far as I know, Nick has never actually tried carnivore himself. If anything, it is actually his paradigm which is speculative and hearsay. At least Paul Saladino has actually been a vegan and a carnivore. Paul has personally wrestled with the limitations of both nutritional extremes, and has now settled for a mix of red meat and fruit. Likewise, my mentor, and in turn my mentor's mentor, have been living and breathing the high-saturated fat diet for YEARS, even multiple decades in the case of my mentor's mentor. I trust them because their blood tests are flawless, their physical excellence is off the charts (seriously, they are both in the top 0.1 percentile of strength to weight ratio), and they are even spiritually enlightened as a cherry on top, lol. So yeah they know a thing or two about not-knowing  Consider that their self-righteousness is not Dunning-Krueger, but rather DECADES of existing as an optimally performing superhuman. 

I agree with you though that we can all spend more time exposing ourselves to more knowledge. I am by no means done with my nutrition journey, I am happy to admit that. But this doesn't mean that I ought to bite my tongue at all times. Perhaps there is room in public discourse for me to exonerate saturated fat. If it ever turns out that I, and the people I trust in, were dead wrong - I am happy to admit as such. And if it turns out that we were indeed wrong, we will be the first to endure the physical consequences of our error, since we live as we preach. It may seem to you that I am playing with people's lives by telling them that beef is safe, but don't forget that my own life is under the guillotine too.

Thanks again for your time and replies, even if it seems we're getting nowhere this means a lot. You help keep me in check. Even though my belief in a high-saturated fat diet persists, it's good to stay on my toes remain humble.

Edited January 4, 2023 by RendHeaven

[Devin]

3 hours ago, Michael569 said:

@RendHeaven Here is a response video to Joseph Everet's content. This I someone I would consider an expert in the field even tho he is neither researcher nor academic. I would consider sharing this with your mentor too. I'd love to watch their debate actually. Nick (guy in this vid) does debates as far as I know. His knowledge far exceeds where I'm at currently and the level at which I can argue around this topic. 

I'm going to be spending more time looking into seed oils, saturate fats, red meat and PUFA studies this year as I am not quite where I'd like to be with this topic and I feel I need to first read all that stuff to really make up my mind about it. I think I've often been arguing from a place of not having 100% of the knowledge I assumed to have. 

Doesn't mean concession of your points  Just putting the discussion on halt until I've had the opportunity to catch up on the evidence. Btw I'd suggest you do the same, perhaps by even looking at the actual sources of the information rather than hearsay. I urge you to look beyond "all studies are confounded by healthy user bias" type of reasoning. 

In the end it's your health you are gambling with here. That goes for both of us. 

I could find online articles saying the opposite. "leading experts" could mean anything. It's a marketing statement. I am sure there is plenty of people who are real experts in the field of nutritional science who are not on their check  Just because AN organisation drafted A letter, it does not mean, the current level of evidence will be dismissed. This happens all the time. 

Have you ever looked at the mountain of research backing up the current dietary guidelines? The 1000+ pages of references and studies? I think it is stored somewhere at the the US Department of Health Website but is super difficult to find, I've been looking for it recently. It is there but they don't make it easy to access which does not help to back their argument, I have to admit. 

btw this is such an arrogant statement that it makes me wanna vomit on my shoes. The absolute self- righteousness and complete lack of self-reflection on that is quite something  Worst part is, it is without even bothering to crack open a single study and analyse it but just flat out dismissing all the evidence as confounded by "healthy user bias".  Absolutely ridiculous. And he id confidently doing it all by regurgitating Paul Saladino's words (nothing he says is new here, every carnivore you listen to is saying the same words exactly which makes it clear that none of them bother to investigate and they just regurgitate the same stuff over and over) 

This is a Kruger Dunning masterclass. I think your mentor, I'm sure he is a smart, experienced and knowledgable person, needs to learn some humility and leave a "maybe I'm not always right" back door open occasionally. 

Thank you for the reaction video, I saw the original video as well and it was quite convincing to me, I got duped!

[LfcCharlie4]

@RendHeaven  Just to confirm is this the guy you're saying is in the top 0.1% of humans in terms of strength? 

 

 

Also, only thing I would say is we can all provide antidotes to support diet choices-

I could just post videos of Brian Turner, Nimai, Rich Roll, Venus Williams, Lewis Hamilton blah blah blah 

There's a reason Anecdotes are at the bottom of the trusted scientific data Pyramid and Meta Analysis / RCTs are at the top...

Edited January 4, 2023 by LfcCharlie4