Can we have an honest discussion about race?

[Thought Art]

5 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

.  Everyone immediately goes to genetics with zero apprehension.  

   

Why do you think that everyone thinks this? 
 

[Heart of Space]

On 10/20/2022 at 9:09 PM, trenton said:

@Heart of Space 

I would like to point out that the Japanese have a much higher IQ than Americans. This difference is accounted for by the food industry in both countries.

In Japan they eat a lot of sea food which is far better than the standard American diet. Many of the ingredients in the food we eat are carcinogens, heavy metals, and heavy sugar. This adds up to the point of brain damage. Brain damage certainly explains the difference in IQ.

If Americans had a better food industry then the average voter could have an IQ about ten points higher. With this in mind, I eat a lot more sea food and it helps me focus with sustained energy.

I should further add the life styles of world chess champions. Although genetics is a factor in Fischer having an IQ of 180, Fischer also believed that body and mind could not be separated. He often went swimming. Kasparov did a lot of push ups. Carlsen plays soccer. Interestingly, Carlsen is also a vegetarian.

I don't believe that diet can make up the total difference in IQ. Then again, IQ tests could be measuring intelligence in a poor way. Maybe pattern recognition can be practiced and improved. Maybe there are other ways to measure intellectual ability other than pattern recognition.

Nutrition differences most certainly do not account for 100% of the difference in intelligence between Americans and Japanese.  Just pretend that there is a pie chart of all the variables, nutrition being one part.  Genes play a role here too, probably also cultural and behavioral differences surrounding academics.  Although, I'd argue adopting more disciplined cultural norms in general is a symptom of innate higher intelligence, probably due to superior genes.   

Edited October 24, 2022 by Heart of Space

[Thought Art]

33 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

No, but they certainly do say that the intellectual capacity of the different races are equal and that all differences are explainable due to historical and environmental explanations.  This is the very thesis I am disputing, so please understand that.  
 

I think that’s clear 

You should ask yourself when you see and interact with a person that is clearly much less intelligent then you, what is the first explanation you go to?  Do you wonder about their nutrition?  Do you ponder the bad values and behaviors that have been pasted to them over generations?  Of course not.  Everyone immediately goes to genetics with zero apprehension. 

Genetics is only one factor I would consider because I am aware of all the factors that go into a persons development. There are circumstances when it’s clear an individual is genetically retarded in their growth and mental abilities.  

When it comes to individuals we have no problem at all attributing poor intellect to genetics. But when we start grouping large genetic populations all of a sudden any talk of genetics being a significant factor becomes taboo. 
 

Can you see any possible reasons why this is the case? Because you can easily meet an individual, but measuring a whole demographic is very hard. Each demographic has different survival challenges, cultural influences and barriers to education and development. I’d like to see more statistics and research done over time. 
 

I’d also like to see the genome of blacks and whites compared to one another. I’ve heard they are identical.  
 

In systems thinking it’s very hard to pull out a single factor for an output.

It's obvious Leo, genes play a massive role in all of your attributes, especially intelligence.  The brain and all it's qualities is an organ governed by genetics.  It'd be odd if we could attribute the ratio of type 1 to type 2 muscle fiber primarily to genetics, yet magically due to personal feelings being hurt the biochemical reality of genes just simply stop working inside of the skull.  All of a sudden the qualities of a brain are only governed by neuroplasticity and all the environmental factors that shape it.  Funny, it would be the single and only organ that worked that way.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that genetics play a role in someone’s IQ. I think that’s pretty obviously what we are disputing with you is your argument that the entire black population is less intelligent than (I assume whites). The just as individual white people has genetic distribution so do black people. 
 

  Could a black person have better genetics for IQ than a white person? 
 

Also, can we note IQ is not the only measurement for intelligence.

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Thought Art

[Heart of Space]

@Thought Art There's a pretty fundamental argument in this thread that I have already made earlier in regards to differences in aggregate qualities in genetics populations.  Either you comprehend the what I have already wrote, or I don't respond.

And yes a black individual, like Obama, can have better genetics for intelligence than 99% of all people.  

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Heart of Space

[Thought Art]

@Heart of Space You haven’t mentioned why EVERYONE assumes genetics when it comes to ones intelligence when clearly this forum shows  otherwise.

Ill ask you question to gain clarity. If you wanna respond you can, or if you wanna be snarky you can do that too.

You could be glad I’m seeking to understand you instead of just debating.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

25 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

Although, I'd argue adopting more disciplined cultural norms in general is a symptom of innate higher intelligence, probably due to superior genes.   

I find it strange you mentioned there’s so many factors in how cultures, demographics, and individuals develops but you think genes are the main reasons for their decisions. How do you know it’s not historical and present survival needs?

 

For example, if you study American economics and look at people’s personal finance psychology the survival and economic needs someone is raised it vastly changes behaviour, risk taking, savings, spending, etc… the next generation can act vastly different than a previous generation simply due to differences in economic opportunity.

Have you heard of “Guns, Germs and steel”? By Jared Diamond? It’s a pretty strong theory as to why different populations around the world developed differently and it had nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with survival. 

I guess, I don’t get why your singling out genetics. 
 

I also don’t get why your over generalizing both whole ethnic groups, as well as how people judge others intelligence when you say “everyone assumes genetics when it comes to intelligence “  which if your honest might just be your own filter your assuming others have.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Thought Art

[Heart of Space]

9 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

I’d also like to see the genome of blacks and whites compared to one another. I’ve heard they are identical.  

I'm not really getting what you're putting down.  Especially when you say absurd stuff like this.  Blacks have many physical attributes that are publicly accepted as essentially 100% genetic that are different.  Height, type 1 muscle fiber prevalence, dick size, bone density, hormone content, and on and on.  We only have an issue when it comes to intelligence metrics.  All of a sudden it's hateful to suggest that it's a genetic deficiency.  It's an obvious double standard we have in society.  

[Thought Art]

30 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

I'm not really getting what you're putting down.  Especially when you say absurd stuff like this.  Blacks have many physical attributes that are publicly accepted as essentially 100% genetic that are different.  Height, type 1 muscle fiber prevalence, dick size, bone density, hormone content, and on and on.  We only have an issue when it comes to intelligence metrics.  All of a sudden it's hateful to suggest that it's a genetic deficiency.  It's an obvious double standard we have in society.  

I’m not saying you are being hateful. I think you really are thinking about this  reasonably/ rationally from your own perspective. 
 

I don’t know you. Maybe you are a racist. It’s at least possible, very likely you are.  
 

You bring up good points about black peoples physical attributes. There may be differences among different ethnic groups in their mental abilities overall. Lets say that’s the case (this is also why I bring up different forms of intelligence beyond IQ). Black people clearly demonstrate in pop culture a high level of creative, artistic, and physical intelligence and ability. When it comes to academics and thinking it’ likely too early in societies development to measure it in history to decide whether it’s genes or not. I don’t know the data on this though. This is due to lack of generational wealth, economic challenges, red lining, school zoning, etc
 

I would need two large, equally well off populations of blacks and whites and then compare their IQ over time. IQ doesn’t even measure ones likeliness of being successful in life or business. 
 

Though I have read studies about DNA tests done that have struggled to tell the difference between black and white people. You may be over attributing genetics to how a person develops. There’s more that goes into a persons physical development than genetics, even how we grow etc… 
 

Why would blacks be less intelligent than whites, even if there is a difference in their mental abilities? 
 

Part of my struggle with this is I’ve known Many smart, talented and highly successful blacks people. I’ve also known some that were clearly less intelligent. But, that goes for whites as well. I realize I can’t use my personal experience with this. 
 

I’d like to see everyone’s argument objectively as best I can.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Thought Art

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Heart of Space said:

No, but they certainly do say that the intellectual capacity of the different races are equal and that all differences are explainable due to historical and environmental explanations.  This is the very thesis I am disputing, so please understand that.

Technically there probably are differences in intelligence between races, but they seem to be insignificant and almost entirely overwhemled by cultural and environmental factors.

The fact that you ignore those major factors to focus on something so insignificant shows that you are grasping at straws to justify some preexisting bias and narrative you have.

Once all the envirnomental factors are equalized it may turn out that blacks have a higher IQ than whites. But you don't take this possibility seriously because it doesn't fit your racist narrative.

Quote

You should ask yourself when you see and interact with a person that is clearly much less intelligent then you, what is the first explanation you go to?  Do you wonder about their nutrition?  Do you ponder the bad values and behaviors that have been passed to them over generations?  Maybe you do, but regardless everyone immediately goes to genetics as an explanation with zero apprehension.

Firstly, when I talk to a stupid person I mostly attribute it to lack of education, not lack of IQ. It is very hard to tell the difference between these two.

But of course there are mentally slow people. However, this has nothing to with race.

How come when you see a crazy white person on the street you don't say: white people are genetically more crazy? See, that would be a racist narrative. You are generalizing in improper ways.

Quote

When it comes to individuals we have no problem at all attributing poor intellect to genetics. But when we start grouping large genetic populations all of a sudden any talk of genetics being a significant factor becomes taboo.

Yeah, it's taboo because racists have sold this narrative for 100s of years, doing much damage. And this narrative has little scientific support. At best it's a tiny difference after we adjust for environment, which we have not yet done. The problem with such narratives is they become self-fulfulling. Which is why the taboo exists. Once you start calling blacks low-IQ, you will create that reality because IQ is so overwhemlingly shaped by culture.

It's okay to call an individual person stupid or crazy or greedy or a rapist. What's not okay is to generalize that to all people of his tribe. That's the key mistake.

Quote

It's obvious Leo, genes play a massive role in all of your attributes, especially intelligence.  The brain and all it's qualities is an organ governed by genetics.  It'd be odd if we could attribute the ratio of type 1 to type 2 muscle fiber primarily to genetics, yet magically due to personal feelings being hurt the biochemical reality of genes just simply stop working inside of the skull.  All of a sudden due to the political nature of the topic the qualities of a brain are only governed by neuroplasticity and all the environmental factors that shape it.  Funny, it would be the single and only organ that worked that way.   

Genes play a huge role in intelligence, but that does not mean your racist narratives are scientifically valid.

The bottom line is that science cannot know the IQ of the races without first equalizing all the environmental factors, which will not happen in our lifetimes.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Leo Gura

[trenton]

I used to be very skeptical of movements like BLM. It seemed to me that these movements were playing the victim to gain undue advantages.

One example was calling a teacher racist because she gave blacks lower scores arguing that some black students objectively lack discipline and score lower in reading and math. Although many environmental factors are at play, it is concerning that black students often fall behind.

I was afraid to tell people this because I would seem racist for pointing out the lower test scores in black students. I am not arguing that they are inherently inferior. It is concerning that this could make it more difficult for black students to get in good schools. It makes it harder to desegregate white universities without lowering the standards that black students need to pass. The result of all of this is the reinforcing of economic disparity between black and white people.

From this point of view it seemed to me that systemic racism was just a boogeyman with which to shirk personal responsibility.

I never believed that genetics actually made black people intellectually inferior because two black people can be more genetically different than a black person and a white person. The main difference is just the skin pigment according to modern science. It therefore seems to me that most of the difference has to do with black culture and identity, not genetics. Black culture includes both the consequences of systemic racism and the victim mindset about systemic racism. It creates a vicious cycle of disempowerment and racism by outcome.

Reasoning like this is what made me drawn to people like Ben Shapiro to begin with. "It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with culture" he argued. Although I now know Shapiro is a shameless partisan, I believe this accurately depicts the perspective of white people who are strongly conservative and deny the existence of systemic racism.

[Heart of Space]

@Leo Gura 5 second Google search Leo.  (See image)

You may want to dig a little on this subject.  There's a lot of assumptions that you have which are false.

If you need me to, I can do a real post with sources too.  Right, now I must go to bed.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Heart of Space

[thepixelmonk]

26 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

@Leo Gura 5 second Google search Leo.  (See image)

You may want to dig a little on this subject.  There's a lot of assumptions that you have which are false.

If you need me to, I can do a real post with sources too.  Right, now I must go to bed.

How much of a clown are you. Literally on that very same page you linked:

"Although IQ differences between individuals have been shown to have a large hereditary component, it does not follow that disparities in IQ between groups have a genetic basis. The scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain average differences in IQ test performance between racial groups."

Can't even post a single source without directly contradicting yourself lmao. This thread is a complete joke.

Edited October 25, 2022 by thepixelmonk

[Heart of Space]

8 minutes ago, thepixelmonk said:

How much of a fking clown are you. Literally on that very same page you linked:

"Although IQ differences between individuals have been shown to have a large hereditary component, it does not follow that disparities in IQ between groups have a genetic basis. The scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain average differences in IQ test performance between racial groups."

Can't even post a single source without directly contradicting yourself lmao. This thread is a complete joke.

This is going to get really hard for you to deny when I get a clear moment to spell it out for those who are having trouble getting this.  Just be patient.

This is a highly politicized topic.  That statement is completely unsubstantiated and is in denial of what the highest level understanding of science tells us.  

[thepixelmonk]

3 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

This is going to get really hard for you to deny when I get a clear moment to spell it out for those who are having trouble getting this.  Just be patient.

This is a highly politicized topic.  That statement is completely unsubstantiated and is in denial of what the highest level understanding of science tells us.  

LOL it will be fking easy to deny. Literally the entire scientific community already has. You're just another racist clown who can't see ten feet in front of your own biases to the point where you can't even post a single source that doesn't contradict your own points.

Edited October 25, 2022 by thepixelmonk

[Leo Gura]

33 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

@Leo Gura 5 second Google search Leo.  (See image)

You may want to dig a little on this subject.  There's a lot of assumptions that you have which are false.

If you need me to, I can do a real post with sources too.  Right, now I must go to bed.

Dude, I clearly told you above that genetics strongly influences intelligence.

THAT DOES NOT MAKE YOUR RACIST NARRATIVE TRUE.

Genetics also makes people midgets. That does not mean blacks are midgets.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Heart of Space]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Dude, I clearly told you that genetics strongly influences intelligence.

THAT DOES NOT MAKE YOUR RACIST NARRATIVE TRUE.

It does if there is a measurable difference in a metric that undoubtedly has a genetic component.  Case in point.

I can write you guys your science article and spell it out with simple easy to follow steps, definitions, and link studies to substantiate each scientific claim in the future I'd you'd like.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Heart of Space

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

I can write you guys your science article and spell it out with simple easy to follow steps, definitions, and link studies to substantiate each scientific claim in the future I'd you'd like.

No you can't. There is no science that tells you blacks are genetically less intelligent.

Science cannot even tell you that there is such a thing as "black people" or "white people".

Edited October 25, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Heart of Space]

6 minutes ago, thepixelmonk said:

LOL it will be fking easy to deny. Literally the entire scientific community already has. You're just another racist clown who can't see ten feet in front of your own biases to the point where you can't even post a single source that doesn't contradict your own points.

Publicly they have, there's a huge political component to academia.  But I almost guarantee you there are many geneticists that share my opinion privately in within certain circles.

[Heart of Space]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Science cannot even tell you that there is such a thing as "black people" or "white people".

You hate science.  

 

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No you can't. There is no science that tells you blacks are genetically less intelligent.

You're being so difficult lol

[thepixelmonk]

2 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

You hate science.  

No you hate that science doesn't agree with your racist ideologies and you have resort to ridiculous conspiracies and what people "really think in private" lmao.

2 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

You're being so difficult lol

Says the guy who has literally nothing to say with zero sources for anything.