Russia and Ukraine making me feel nervous

[Hello from Russia]

@Leo Gura I like how Oleksey Arestovich, who is basically an Ukrainian version of Ken Wilber you could say, puts it that war in Ukraine is basically the battle of Stage Blue vs Stage Orange hemispheres 

The thing is, Ukraine as a nation is pretty separated culturally as well, it has deeply conservative people here, as well as a lot of progressives and liberal types and basically Zelensky is one of them (he is very green and probably even yellow+, I studied him in his artistic career for a bit) 

People who are stage orange and above basically for the most part vote for NATO and for EU integration, all this good stuff, while conservative folk for the most part rooting for Russia and Russian world (though some of them hate Russia of course and want everyone to just leave them alone with their Karpaty mountain) 

Nonetheless, a lot of more conservative people are fleeing to Russia (!) willingly and they are (!) pretty happy here as far as I can tell. They see Ukrainian NATO and EU shinanigsnd as a deep corruption of Ukraine, "siding with fa***** and perverts". A lot view it as an enhancement to their lives

Of course it's divided geographically as well, Western Ukraine, which is basically closer to EU is more liberal, while the East & South that are closer to Russia are more conservative

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Hello from Russia

[Hello from Russia]

What's especially funny is that this is the war both against Liberals and against Far Right, cause there are (!) undeniably neonazis in Ukraine, but of course Zelensky and his administration is not them

For some reason, our propaganda machine equates liberals and progressives with neo nazis as one thing and our public just eats it, lol (or denies the existence of nazis, which is quite ignorant as well to be honest) 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Hello from Russia

[Leo Gura]

There is nazis (extreme nationalists) in every country.

This idea that Putin says that there are literal German Nazis in Ukraine is silly. What he means is extreme nationalists, which of course every country has. Basically the hardcore American MAGA are akin to nazis.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Hello from Russia]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is nazis (extreme nationalists) in every country.

This idea that Putin says that there are literal German Nazis in Ukraine is silly. What he means is extreme nationalists, which of course every country has. Basically American MAGA are akin to nazis.

But there are and they are very cruel and stage Reddish

I've seen a lot of videos of them committing various kind of atrocities and basically revealing their consciousness and vibe. 

And the thing is, they have their military organizations

I am sure most of them would love to turn Ukraine into full fascist state

However, it's for sure not anything close to majority of Ukrainians that are like this

Maybe it is like 5-10% of Ukraine population or something similar

But the problem is is that they are highly weaponized and they participate in wars (Esp Donbass wars in 2014-2022) 

Whole Putins argument of why he calls Zelensky a nazi is because they seemingly supported these guys with various goodies and political weight

Edited October 9, 2022 by Hello from Russia

[Leo Gura]

@Hello from Russia Of course Putin is just using that as a lame excuse to have his way. The real problem for him is not Nazis, it's the West taking over Ukraine.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Hello from Russia]

5 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

 

Also, as a side note, I am pretty sure there are more actual neo-nazis in Russia than in Ukraine...

Hehe, not really, but only because they all got heavily persecuted and killed/jailed in latest years

Maybe before this we actually had more legit nazis that's true

In a sense Putin has some integrity in his antinazi policy

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Hello from Russia

[Hello from Russia]

55 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Hello from Russia Of course Putin is just using that as a lame excuse to have his way. The real problem for him is not Nazis, it's the West taking over Ukraine.

Maybe, but it is reported they commited big atrocities in Ukrainian civic Donbass war, which is why there was such outrage here, i wouldn't competely dismiss iit

Though I agree with you of course that West issue is more way more primal

Edited October 9, 2022 by Hello from Russia

[Hello from Russia]

@Something Funny ? 

Why are you pegging me like this as though I am advocating for Russian agenda here

Edited October 9, 2022 by Hello from Russia

[Hello from Russia]

@Something Funny @Something Funny 5-10% isn't that big of a number. It would be people who pretty much directly support neo-nazi ideas with 1-2% or less the most radical ones who take the actual action

You attack me as though I said that 99% of ukrainians are nazis when I am basically saying the opposite but just stressing that there (!) are actual nazis and they are kind of a big deal

Edited October 9, 2022 by Hello from Russia

[Hello from Russia]

6 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Because it's kind of triggering to see Russian people, whose country created so much pain and suffering, to run their mouth about how there are nazis in Ukraine.

Especially since the biggest irony is that whatever nazis there are in Ukraine right now, were unheard of before 2014. And even if they existed, they existed as marginalised groups with zero social and political power.

And whaetever war crimes were committed in Donbass, they would have never happened if it wasn't for Russia.

But oh surprise, if you attack people and hurt them, and open centuries old national wounds, they will inevitably become more hateful and radicalize back at you. WHAT A SURPRISE.

@Something Funny Sorry it's triggering, but one of my highest value is truth and it's just true that there are radical nazis in the region, at least we have a good evidence of it

Whatever atrocities Russian army is commiting right now or Russia as a collective commited in the past towards Ukraine doesn't mean I support it/have supported it ever

We are having some meta discussion here, I don't know why you have to go personal 

You don't even know If I'm actually Russian or not ethnically, lol

Edited October 9, 2022 by Hello from Russia

[Leo Gura]

34 minutes ago, Hello from Russia said:

Maybe, but it is reported they commited big atrocities in Ukrainian civic Donbass war, which is why there was such outrage here, i wouldn't competely dismiss ii

I'm sure there were war crimes committed in that region by both sides. It's basically Russian vs Ukrainian ultra-nationalists fighting against each other for control over that land.

Atrocities are just gonna be part of any fighting that happens in that region. I wouldn't blame any one side over that. We clearly see Russian troops committing all sorts of atrocities in this war. They are just not very professional or well-managed military forces. They are mostly just winging things and so atrocities result.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Hello from Russia]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm sure there were war crimes committed in that region by both sides. It's basically Russian vs Ukrainian ultra-nationalists fighting against each other.

Nice take actually and I think is so true. Because from what I see, both liberal minded Ukrainians and Russians are right now fleeing both countries at a very rapid rate

The only people who are truly combative are indeed just right wing people on both sides

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Hello from Russia

[Hello from Russia]

The problem with it though is that most liberals will flee for good and Russia will legimately fully become a nationalistic country with even easier automatic nationalistic reelection

Edited October 9, 2022 by Hello from Russia

[no_name]

1 hour ago, Hello from Russia said:

Maybe it is like 5-10% of Ukraine population or something similar

Lol, russian propaganda much? Ukraine’s far right party only got 2% of the votes in the most recent election. That is less than most European countries.

Generally, russia has far more nazis percentage-wise than Ukraine ever will. 

It is obvious though, that a country of 44 million will have nazis, rapists, murderers, thieves, pedophiles, drug addicts, etc. 

I truly think that particular part of russian propaganda - “Ukrainians are nazis” is aimed at the most stupid russians out there - the alcoholic wife-beater type, or the uneducated owns a toilet outdoor type. At least when they speak about NATO preparing to attack them, it can be somewhat believable..

Edited October 9, 2022 by no_name

[Hello from Russia]

13 minutes ago, no_name said:

Lol, russian propaganda much? Ukraine’s far right party only got 2% of the votes in the most recent election. That is less than most European countries.

So what? Ukraine is divided as fuck even without Donbass, people will not vote for or relate to only 1 nazi organization

In Russia we don't even have 1% of far right parties in Parliament, by your logic we have 0 nazis? 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Hello from Russia

[no_name]

31 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm sure there were war crimes committed in that region by both sides. It's basically Russian vs Ukrainian ultra-nationalists fighting against each other for control over that land.

Atrocities are just gonna be part of any fighting that happens in that region. I wouldn't blame any one side over that. We clearly see Russian troops committing all sorts of atrocities in this war. They are just not very professional or well-managed military forces. They are mostly just winging things and so atrocities result.

Ukrainian army has a noble cause though. After you’ve watched your cities destroyed, your women and children being raped, tortured and murdered, you don’t need to be “far right” to develop strong hate for russhists.

Every morning (this was today) you see the news of russian missiles hitting multiple civilian objects and apartment buildings. You want to protect those poor innocent people dying every day.

[no_name]

5 minutes ago, Hello from Russia said:

So what? Ukraine is divided as fuck even without Donbass, people will not vote for or relate to only 1 nazi organization

In Russia we don't even have 1% of far right parties in Parliament, by your logic we have 0 nazis? 

What about puti-poo? How much more far right can it get? Lol

[no_name]

16 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

In my biased Ukrainian opinion, most of those people you call nazis are just individuals traumatized by centuries of Russian oppression. A fun fact is that most of them are "nazi" only towards Russia. They don't exhibit other features of naziism like racism, homophobia, eugenics, etc. They also don't antagonize progressive west, and democratic values like true Russian nazis do.

This is actually a major point that these people don’t understand. Which makes them using the term “nazis” so much more laughable.

That is why I keep saying, you have to be next level kind of stupid to buy into the “Ukrainians are nazis” propaganda. 

Edited October 9, 2022 by no_name

[Hello from Russia]

@Something Funny @no_name Sorry, but you guys seem to severely lack context of what was going on in Ukraine region in the last 30 years, 300 years historical context and its political climate now and then

As you seem to be very Western biased, I will suggest you to go listen to the content of Oleksey Arestovich to learn more about it all. He is an ukraininan propagandist and a direct advisor of Zelensky and obviously very biased towards Ukraine (West), yet he is a philosopher first and foremost and clearly has truth in one of the highest values so gives a rather accurate perception on things (unlike many propagandists in Russia, truth be told)

You'll learn a lot here, there are many videos of him on youtube, many have good English subtitles. English wikipedia also has some good unbiased info on it all (or maybe slightly biased towards pro-west Ukraine, but it should be fine for you I guess)

But also, watch your biases and projections. I'm not pro-russian guy by any means. I consume some russian propaganda but at very moderate dosages for scientific purposes and my own contemplation. Besdies it I've consumed I guess more than 50 different resources at a whole spectrum both pro-russian and pro-western

it's just intellectualy dishonest to call me a pro-russian, lol. I've personally done a pretty good holistic analysis of a situation, so I think I have a rather integrative overview on it all. All I'm doing is just pointing at your misunderstandings of a situation and some missing pieces of the whole picture. Which is what Leo tries to do in this topic too. This forum obviously has a very western leaning (and I guess I lean western as well), so it's unsurprising to see that you guys don't really bother that much to study non-western POV and understand it, but still

Edited October 9, 2022 by Hello from Russia

[no_name]

6 minutes ago, Hello from Russia said:

what was going on in Ukraine region in the last 30 years, 300 years historical context and its political climate now and then

Lol, I definitely know the history of Ukraine better than you do. Especially because the way history is/was taught in Russia, and even in Ukraine during the Soviet Union, was highly distorted and untrue. 

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by no_name