Am I In A Cult?

[Osaid]

It seems like the Universe was listening in on this thread or something, cause everything today coincidentally cascaded into a sequence of events where I eventually had to talk it out with my brother about leaving the organization. We had a 3 hour long convo and talked it out. He will tell the boss tomorrow that I want to leave.

[ZzzleepingBear]

12 hours ago, Osaid said:

@OBEler @ZzzleepingBear

Alright, I will probably leave in a week or two once we move back to where my house is, I think it will be the least turbulent that way. Thanks. I will update on what happens. I personally don't see myself living in such an environment for the next few years anyways, even if it does make me a lot of money.

 

Good choice. The best of luck to you!

[OBEler]

@Osaid @Osaid

20 hours ago, Osaid said:

@ZzzleepingBear

For reference, a guy who has been here for years makes about 300 dollars a day. You know how commision is, it can be big or low some days.

@Osaid good, normally it is hard to get out of a cult. I think the Boss will want to talk with you and want to convince you for staying. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Osaid]

On 9/20/2022 at 6:09 AM, ZzzleepingBear said:

Good choice. The best of luck to you!

Thank you

On 9/20/2022 at 6:16 AM, OBEler said:

good, normally it is hard to get out of a cult.

From a purely psychological perspective, it kind of was. There was a lot of fear-mongering. Having family in there kind of ties things up too. But they were mostly cool about it, although it was very emotional at the beginning. Like Leo said in the cult video, I was "allowed" to walk out but there was a lot of psychological baggage and fear that was being created so that I wouldn't really even consider it.

On 9/20/2022 at 6:16 AM, OBEler said:

I think the Boss will want to talk with you and want to convince you for staying. 

He didn't even converse with me about it, he just ordered me a flight out of there, and then my brother talked me through the rest of the process.  Like I said, he is not lying or saying things he doesn't believe in, he genuinely believes in what he is saying, he has just unconsciously created cult dynamics within his organization. It's similar to how someone can be a psychopath without realizing they are one.

The team meeting today was actually about brainwashing and cults and belief systems, which was obviously inspired by me leaving. I guess he wanted to reinforce the morale of the group and hit those objections before the other members in the group even consider it.

Anyways, I appreciate everyone's responses in this thread, I think it brought me clarity.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Osaid

[King Merk]

Congrats on getting out man. I imagine that took quite a bit of courage to do. 

[Osaid]

8 hours ago, King Merk said:

I imagine that took quite a bit of courage to do. 

Yeah, I was originally planning to wait a few weeks because I was expecting some sort of fallout to happen if I were to do it too suddenly, but apparently they were already talking about my behavior and it spiraled into a conversation which gave me the opportunity to tell them straight out I want to leave. They were more understanding than I thought. Like I said, they are not purposefully lying or manipulating, but at the same time they are perpetuating very clear cult dynamics. They are very emotionally attached. I kind of feel bad for them.

[OBEler]

@Osaid @Osaid @Osaid @Osaid

On 19.9.2022 at 5:26 PM, Osaid said:

@ZzzleepingBear

@Osaid //sorry for these reference but this is a Bug on Smartphone//

 

 

@Osaid, man I am glad you made it out of this. if you can, save your brother from this cult, too. In Germany there was a almost cult like sales company like yours. Google memet Göker

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by OBEler

[Mu_]

On 9/19/2022 at 0:05 AM, Osaid said:

I will prefix this by saying, I don't have much work experience. I have only ever worked as a cashier before this, so I am not too sure what is "standard" or "normal".

I recently got into a sales job working B2B. It is entirely commission-based. We sell a real tangible product, not some pyramid scheme type thing, so it is legit in some sense. The job itself has good potential for money and it comes with a lot of valuable skills and life lessons to learn. It has made me much more confident for sure. My brother started working there years ago and he has been there for a while now. He told me a position had opened, and I wanted to try it out so here I am. The people that work here are absolutely amazing at what they do, I have seen them in action, they deal with massive businesses regularly. I do enjoy a lot of aspects of the job, talking to businesses, helping them out with products, learning how different businesses operate, having a team of people to talk with, getting valuable business advice, etc.

However, there are quite a few aspects that make me uneasy, and I don't know if I am overreacting or if I'm simply trying to avoid doing the hard work. The way this company operates is unlike anything I've ever seen before. It is very strict and personal. I will do my best to explain.

Everyday we wake up at about 4am, non-negotiable. Everyone here is constantly taking naps. It's basically impossible to not be sleep-deprived here, but the boss partakes in it too, which is why I say he seems genuine to an extent, he really does believe what he teaches us, but that doesn't disprove him being a cult leader. The boss says spiritual platitudes all the time, but with a stage orange tint to it. He is very deep in the Napoleon Hill/Earl Nightingale/Grant Cardone type of ideology, if that makes sense. The stage orange spiritual stuff. He commands everything that everyone does. Everyone here is basically a mini-version of him at this point. And there is a very tense energy in the company. At any moment, one of the employees could shout at you or change personalities if you do one thing wrong, even if you guys were getting along perfectly well a few minutes ago. They will threaten to hit you sometimes or make your life "a living hell", but I am unsure how much of that is hyperbolic. They call it discipline, and that if you don't obey you are being disrespectful and ungrateful. I remember asking one time why we were changing our schedule out of curiosity, and one of them got mad at me and told me that I shouldn't ask questions because of my position on the hierarchy. They talk about hierarchies, and having to respect people who are above you, and not asking questions about things and just doing them, as soldiers do in war. They will sometimes tell me to do things that make no logical sense, just for the sake of following orders and following a hierarchy, I guess to make me more "disciplined" and "obedient". They treat me like a kid and behave as if they are my parents or babysitters, that is the dynamic here.

I think that the boss genuinely thinks he is doing what is best, I don't think that he is purposefully trying to manipulate or lie to us, but as Leo said cult leaders don't necessarily realize they are leading a cult. He talks quite often about humiliating people who have previously left the organization, and that our lives will turn to hell if we leave. He has even talked about tapping someone's phone in the organization to make sure they aren't selling the company out, which seems very extreme to me. The turnover rate is very high. And then the boss will make fun of the people who leave. It seems clear to me that the organization runs off of fear.

The boss himself is quite vocal and explicit. He has very controversial views he spouts, the mindset is "if you don't like it then leave" which I can kind of respect. 

He also talks about disconnecting from family and friends because they often do not serve us or support us, which actually has some truth to it. A lot of what he says has truth sprinkled into it, which is why I am conflicted. He constantly says the phrase "if you're not with us you're against us".

He also talks about how if someone asks us about the company we should always sell them on the company and make it look good, or else we are being ungrateful and poor. He even said he would fire us if we didn't put a good word in.

Everyone here treats the boss like a God. Everytime he says or commands something, they say "yes sir". They see him as the ultimate role model. We have team meetings, and after every statement he says he asks "does that make sense?" to which everyone responds in unison "yes sir". It almost seems like a fake question, I have never heard respond "no" to that and I guarantee if someone did they would be mad about it. This guy says some pseudo-spiritual stuff that doesn't really make sense a lot of times and everyone just responds "yes sir" to it. It strikes me as off. They are absolutely enamoured with how "successful" and "spiritual" he is.

They also talk a lot about "bullying" in order to fix their behaviour. They talk about "breaking people down and then building them back up", which seems very brainwashy to me.

They are very judgemental and poke at lots of tiny things they don't agree with in a very idiosyncratic way, because they find it to be "weird" or "poor" or "disrespectful" behaviour. Like for example, they might out you on just sitting differently.

I understand that cult dynamics can be very nuanced. A lot of the points here are mentioned in Leo's video about cults and I felt a lot of it lined up. It may not even be a "cult" per say, but maybe a better label would be "toxic workplace". Most workplaces are toxic to some degree. I'm pushing through because I see lots of valuable skills and money here. There is also another member here who got his brother in, and Leo said cults use family members to recruit. They are planning to have me move into their house to live with them, so that I wont be influenced by my parents anymore as I am living with them currently. Very little time is spent outside of work, every day is basically just spent working. I'm getting a bit worried cause I feel like I am slowly being sucked into their hive mind and way of looking at things, losing my individuality and motivation to leave and think for myself. The longer I stay here the more cemented I feel, as different relationships and habits are being built.

I will also add that the boss' personal ideology is basically forced onto everyone, and if you say no to what he asks you will basically be fired immediately, or at least he says so. It is very cutthroat, and he says it is necessary if you want to be disciplined and successful.

Am I just overthinking this? I just need some fresh perspectives on this.

 

 

 

You sound like an intelligent person with a sound mind and open enough perspective to see into the subtleties going on there.  It actually sounds like a interesting place to work, and I'd wager its probably a good place for some of the people there, maybe it even turned some of their lives around, gave them a goal and some discipline.

No one here can ultimately tell you if its a cult and if you should be there.  If its working on some level for you, keep going, and keep questioning.  When you feel its empty of anything for you or goes against you in some fundamental level, move on.  Till then, keep exploring and growing from it.  Not all lifes adventures and experiences are pleasant, this doesn't make it any less worthwhile or usefull.  It may provide something you seek on some level and will learn from.

[Vibroverse]

Congratulations man, and, as a joke, I wanted to say that we are in an eternal cult called existence and there is nooooo way out. 

[Osaid]

3 hours ago, Mu_ said:

It actually sounds like a interesting place to work, and I'd wager its probably a good place for some of the people there, maybe it even turned some of their lives around, gave them a goal and some discipline.

Absolutely. There were big benefits, lots of personal development and growth. I would say it turned mine around and motivated me to get much more diligent about things. That doesn't disprove that it's not a cult though, which is why cults are so tricky. Most of them reel people in with stuff like this. Most of them aren't aware that they are cults.

3 hours ago, Mu_ said:

No one here can ultimately tell you if its a cult and if you should be there.  If its working on some level for you, keep going, and keep questioning.  When you feel its empty of anything for you or goes against you in some fundamental level, move on.  Till then, keep exploring and growing from it.  Not all lifes adventures and experiences are pleasant, this doesn't make it any less worthwhile or usefull.  It may provide something you seek on some level and will learn from.

This was basically the idea. I went into it with this mindset and approach. I wanted to extract as much growth and development as possible from it, but eventually it got to a climax where a bunch of the ideologies I didn't really agree with caught up to me and I ended up just deciding to leave.

It was definitely a massive learning experience, and I think it was an inevitable experience considering my brother was in it and I was always considering joining.

10 hours ago, OBEler said:

if you can, save your brother from this cult, too.

Maybe. It has to be a very slow and careful effort though.

2 hours ago, Vibroverse said:

Congratulations man, and, as a joke, I wanted to say that we are in an eternal cult called existence and there is nooooo way out. 

I guess the narcissistic authority in the cult of existence is me/God. I'll take it over some stage orange boss.