Can stage yellow support the death penalty?

[Leo Gura]

12 hours ago, flowboy said:

So are you saying that people who have never hurt someone, but could be dangerous, because they are mentally ill or mentally disabled, should be shot in order to save resources?

Or are you fine with spending money on care facilities for people, even life long, except if they have committed a terrible crime?

In that case, this is just motivated by retribution, not this utilitarian rationality which you claim. Because the only difference is what they have done in the past.

Most mentally ill people are not a danger to others. This is common stereotype.

Mentally disabled people are certainly a drag on society, however since they didn't harm anyone they can be treated with more compassion, like cats and dogs.

Yes, people who have committed serious crimes deserve less respect and care from us. By being an asshole you lose your entitlement to charity.

It's not complicated: people who are nice get treated nice. People who are assholes get treated like assholes.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Thought Art]

Yes, stage yellow can support death or penalty. However, they may be more nuanced in how and when it’s applied.

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, people who have committed serious crimes deserve less respect and care from us. By being an asshole you lose your entitlement to charity.

It's not complicated: people who are nice get treated nice. People who are assholes get treated like assholes.

Should domestic abusers be able to go to therapy? Do their victims who also are likely to become domestic abusers also get to go to therapy?

[Loba]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Most mentally ill people are not a danger to others. This is common stereotype.

Mentally disabled people are certainly a drag on society, however since they didn't harm anyone they can be treated with more compassion, like cats and dogs.

Yes, people who have committed serious crimes deserve less respect and care from us. By being an asshole you lose your entitlement to charity.

It's not complicated: people who are nice get treated nice. People who are assholes get treated like assholes.

This is a stereotype.  I wanted to add - mentally ill/disabled people are human beings, they are not like dogs or cats.  Sometimes these things are genetic, but more often than not I would argue that a good number of people who become ill later in life, or even who become criminals do so because of how society is structured.  How can you call someone a drag on society, when it is society that is a drag on them?

If society doesn't want people like this, they need to stop creating them.  We live in a world where people are pigeonholed/treated like cattle and if you have a sensitivity or have the possibility to become ill, the structure of all of this can bring it out of you, these latent things that never would have activated. 

As someone in that spot - who would not have been mentally ill, or physically ill, if my family of origin was healthy, if society and the people in my life were stable, if society wasn't out to leech off of my life source at every opportunity, then I would have turned out being a dog trainer or an artist or something like that.  It is often due to the luck of the draw - which family you end up in, how people treat you, how your body reacts to certain foods - even down to the wrong flu at a bad time can wake something up inside.

Many of these ill people may even have spiritual gifts.  A lot of times, latent spiritual talents can look like, or later on become mental illness due to how the collective handles them.

In my experience, society creates these problems in you and then gets angry when you don't function properly, while simultaneously robbing you of the opportunity to do that.  It's a very twisted system.  If you have a problem and you do try to get it fixed, it's a complete clusterfuck to get anything done, and if you're dealing with illness on top of that, trying to manage that, along with your life.

I think you could put people with problems in group settings, and most will begin to function very well with community.  Even to the point of becoming well again, and able to go back to work, developing hobbies and so forth.  I have been to a mental hospital three times and every time it was an eye opener that it is more than just the onus being put on the sick person - that with these systems and communities in place, within weeks to a month most of these people were talking to one another, back to their old selves, they felt seen and heard and normal around other people who struggle with the same issues - many of them started on, or returned to old hobbies.

Once you get people like this into a structured environment - guarantee you, within a few months to a half a year, these people will be ready to contribute to society.  We are not like "cats and dogs".

P.S. - as far as being an asshole - you can't tell with people.  If you are dealing with a sick person, or just a jerkoff.  A "sick" asshole that is treated and becomes normalized is just that - a sick person.  If you have never delt with psychosis or delusion, you wouldn't know - these people can be very out of touch and react in these ways, but they are damaged and need treatment.  If you lump people together just based on a quick outer glance, then you don't get to the heart of the issue.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Loba

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Should domestic abusers be able to go to therapy? Do their victims who also are likely to become domestic abusers also get to go to therapy?

Sure, why is this even a question?

Then again, nothing entitles you to free therapy. Therapy is an expensive service that must be earned or rationed.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Carl-Richard]

39 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Sure, why is this even a question?

Then again, nothing entitles you to free therapy. Therapy is an expensive service that must be earned or rationed.

So,

1. They can be a drag on society (mentally ill) and you'll still be compassionate.
2. They can be a danger to other people (domestic abuser) and you'll still be compassionate.

What about being both? That's a prisoner.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Tyler Robinson]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

You can be a danger to other people (domestic abuser) and you'll still be compassionate.

How can a domestic abuser be compassionate? 

 

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Tyler Robinson said:

How can a domestic abuser be compassionate? 

I'm saying Leo is being compassionate towards them despite their wrongdoings.

[Tyler Robinson]

4 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I'm saying Leo is being compassionate towards them despite their wrongdoings.

Shouldn't we be compassionate towards them? 

[Tyler Robinson]

@Carl-Richard I have no clue what your position is. I read all the posts. I'm not able to follow what your argument is. 

 

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

@Carl-Richard I have no clue what your position is. I read all the posts. I'm not able to follow what your argument is. 

Leo thinks extremely bad people who are sitting in jail should be killed. I don't think so, because:

• Their ability to do harm to innocent people is absolutely minimal.
• Their ability to do harm does not differ substantially from the large amount of very bad people below the "extreme" cut-off point.
• Very few people are extremely bad, so removing them leads to only a marginal reduction in harm.
• Executioners have extremely high rates of PTSD: 31%, compared to 20% in Iraq veterans.
• We generally don't kill people for being a social or economic burden on society (e.g. institutionalized mentally ill people).
• "We will kill you not because we have to, but because we can" is a terrifying message for the state to send to its citizens.
• I don't believe anybody inherently "deserves" to die.

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

Shouldn't we be compassionate towards them? 

We should.

[Tyler Robinson]

38 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Leo thinks extremely bad people who are sitting in jail should be killed. I don't think so, because:

• Their ability to do harm to innocent people is absolutely minimal.
• Their ability to do harm does not differ substantially from the large amount of very bad people below the "extreme" cut-off point.
• Very few people are extremely bad, so removing them leads to only a marginal reduction in harm.
• Executioners have extremely high rates of PTSD: 31%, compared to 20% in Iraq veterans.
• We generally don't kill people for being a social or economic burden on society (e.g. institutionalized mentally ill people).
• "We will kill you not because we have to, but because we can" is a terrifying message for the state to send to its citizens.
• I don't believe anybody inherently "deserves" to die.

I agree fully. Also the executioner thing is making me sick in the stomach. Maybe we shouldn't have death penalty. Not worth putting people through bad karma as an executioner

[Proserpina]

20 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Most mentally ill people are not a danger to others. This is common stereotype.

Mentally disabled people are certainly a drag on society, however since they didn't harm anyone they can be treated with more compassion, like cats and dogs.

Some of the mentally ill are like carries without a support or carries in infancy in an MMO.  Just wait until their soul has the opportunities and resources and maturity they need to flourish.  They will carry the whole team at the end when their soul matures. 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Proserpina

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

So,

1. They can be a drag on society (mentally ill) and you'll still be compassionate.
2. They can be a danger to other people (domestic abuser) and you'll still be compassionate.

What about being both? That's a prisoner.

Such a silly argument. Abusers are reformable and this assumes they've served their time so they will be free regardless.

You're not putting abusers in jail for life. Abusers should still get a punishment, whatever is warranted.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Tyler Robinson]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Such a silly argument. Abusers are reformable and this assumes they've served their time so they will be free regardless.

You're not putting abusers in jail for life. Abusers should still get a punishment, whatever is warranted.

Umm I kinda agree with you there. But a better position imo would be a system of jail punishment combined with some reformative therapy that looks closely into probable reasons and tries to help them reform their ways of thinking so they can be better integrated overall even in the jail house, not good to keep someone caged with nothing to help them beat demons. Can you imagine their suffering? 

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Tyler Robinson said:

Umm I kinda agree with you there. But a better position imo would be a system of jail punishment combined with some reformative therapy that looks closely into probable reasons and tries to help them reform their ways of thinking so they can be better integrated overall even in the jail house, not good to keep someone caged with nothing to help them beat demons. Can you imagine their suffering? 

From what I understand that's how our current system works.

[Tyler Robinson]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

From what I understand that's how our current system works.

Silly on your part to assume that the current system is rosy. Too many prison rapes. Too much violence in US prisons. Maybe take out some time some day and watch a documentary on the prison system and you will see the horrors prisoners face and the reality versus what is fed to you in literature, media, TV. It will be an eye opener. The situation in prisons needs urgent reforms, it's too grim. 

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

Silly on your part to assume that the current system is rosy. Too many prison rapes. Too much violence in US prisons. Maybe take out some time some day and watch a documentary on the prison system and you will see the horrors prisoners face and the reality versus what is fed to you in literature, media, TV. It will be an eye opener. The situation in prisons needs urgent reforms, it's too grim. 

Because resources are stretched thin.

[Tyler Robinson]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Because resources are stretched thin.

Ok fine. 

I made a request on another thread. Please take it into consideration. 

This thread.