Leo's video on how to love does not correlate well with getting girls

[something_else]

14 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

It seems like i have to be toxic and unpredictable and ghost girls and do all this BS in order to get them hooked into me.  And guys i have seen so many examples of this in my life with people i know that i am convinced beyond a doubt that this is what works with young girls.

I think this^ is something you have convinced yourself of to sooth your ego

"I don't have as much success as I'd like with girls, it must be because I'm too stable, healthy, actualized, caring, honest, humble and non-dramatic" – that's kind of what I read when I read your post

And you can absolutely be those things and still be attractive. But you also need a few other things too, otherwise you're just going to bore girls. You need a bit of edge. You need to take risks. You need to be confident. Be OK with stepping out of your comfort zone. You have to be fearless. You have to be masculine. You have to be fun.

If you sprinkle some of these exciting traits in with being stable, healthy, actualized, caring, honest, humble and non-dramatic, you become extremely attractive, even more than the guys who don't have all of those things and are just straight toxic

There is a lot of overlap between being only stable, healthy, honest, humble and non-dramatic and being a weak man. Many weak men exhibit these traits to hedge their bets with others and take a comfortable path in life.

I'm not saying this is you at all, I know for sure that isn't true in your case. But the problem is that to a girl, if all you exhibit are these 'nice' traits, that is the impression it gives off, even if you are not actually a weak guy.

[universe]

You gotta learn what girls are really attracted to.

It's a game.

Spirituality might help you in some aspects with game but you still have to go through the motions and start playing.

[Karmadhi]

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But you must still learn to be a MAN. Spirituality is not a shortcut around that. The core fundamentals of game are still operative. You can use spirituality to ground yourself deeply in an authenic masculinity.

But you still have to leave your basement and talk to girls to get girls. There is no shortcut for that. If you are too scared to approach a hot girl and look her square in the eyes then what does your spirituality really mean?

You yourself say girls are attracted to detached guys that do not care about them. How is removing all empathy and kindness helping you to be a more selfless loving person? To me being good with girls and being a good loving selfless person are opposites.

The only solution to me at least, is to become high value to the point where a girl wont loose attraction for you even if you treat her well and care about her. Yes, if a girl finds you high value you can get away with all sorts of shit (personal experience  ).  Aka social value.

[Karmadhi]

11 hours ago, something_else said:

I think this^ is something you have convinced yourself of to sooth your ego

Actually i did not want to believe it until reality forced me after countless examples and self denials from my part.

11 hours ago, something_else said:

And you can absolutely be those things and still be attractive

To me a developed person is empathetic, caring and kind. Can you be attractive even if you dont create drama and treat girls well and with respect?

11 hours ago, something_else said:

But you also need a few other things too, otherwise you're just going to bore girls. You need a bit of edge. You need to take risks. You need to be confident. Be OK with stepping out of your comfort zone. You have to be fearless. You have to be masculine. You have to be fun.

Issue is most guys i know do these things in a very toxic way. Ghosting a girl randomly to me is toxic. Becoming cold for no reason and creating conflict out of nowhere is also toxic to me. Can you be fun without being toxic like this?

 

[Razard86]

You don't have to be toxic to get girls...its just a lot of the game in modern dating...has become toxic because our culture has normalized and even uplifted toxicity as the creme de la creme. If you want to understand how to get women. Read the book by Rom Wills called Nice Guys and Players. He talks about what Nice Guys go through and what Players go through. The Modern Woman wants a man that displays BOTH characteristics. Spirituality= Nice Guy. Once you go through Ego Death hopefully you have overcome your fear of death/the unknown. Now incorporate the "edge." 

That book gives you the right perspective. After I read that book...I had women figured out. They are not as complicated as they seem. Women want some of the same things men want...with some differences. Once you find out what those differences are and why....it actually makes sense.

[Federico del pueblo]

@Karmadhi I honestly feel like you got a few things twisted regarding attraction.

22 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

How is removing all empathy and kindness helping you to be a more selfless loving person?

You shouldn't remove ALL empathy and kindness. You just shouldn't be kind and empathetic just to please her (or pursue her).

There's a difference between doing something and then NEEDING something back from her (= neediness) or doing something because it's just human decency to do it.

In game the basic message you want to send to a girl is: "There's a chance that it could work out with you and I, but I'm not sure yet, maybe it won't work, maybe it will. I have to find out whether you're up to my standards. If you're not up to my standards I also have no problems with walking away from you, and incase you reject me I'm also fine with that".

Then, to reinforce this willingness to walk away you also do things to push her away a bit (teasing, push pulls etc.).

Yes, with some girls you can or have to be toxic to pursue them, but that's because they're toxic and damaged too. If a girl has a history of being abused emotionally, then the best kind of game would be to do something similar i.e. constantly communicating that she's not enough or so, BUT you should avoid these girls and not damage them even more.

34 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

The only solution to me at least, is to become high value to the point where a girl wont loose attraction for you even if you treat her well and care about her.

That's bullshit and a misunderstanding.

If you have higher perceived value than the girl (from her pov) then that's all you need. From a guy like that she WANTS to be treated well and with respect. It's not like girls want to be treated like dirt. But as long as you don't have enough value she doesn't care about you treating her well.

That's why in old school game "demonstrating high value" comes FIRST. 

The way game creates value is that first you show different attractive qualities like confidence BUT ALSO a willingness to walk away = a form of non-neediness.

You not needing her but still being potentially interested and being unapologetic about your potential interest makes you attractive for her. 

And if at some point you've done enough good game she wants to convince you of her, thus she wants you to care about her a little bit, and at some a little bit more and so on.

And then you actually can care about her to some extent (without becoming a needy doormat kind of guy) while also still demonstrating attractive qualities. At this point the message is a bit more like.

"Ok, you've kinda won me over a little bit. I've started to like you and care about you to some extent. But if you mess up this will change again, so be a good girl :)"

In essence you can't be only kind an loving because that's just boring, you need a mixture of positive and edgy, with edgy being the game stuff.

 

[aurum]

On 5/30/2022 at 9:53 PM, Jacob Morres said:

Yeah this Part of dating confuses the fuck out of me. Selflessness turns girls off? I'd rather have 0 girls then

I'm not giving up my soul for any woman make it make sense 

Edit: @aurum good point ?

Thank you.

Yes, that intuition you have is right. It doesn’t make sense because it isn’t true.

You don’t have to give up your soul for a woman.

There may be certain tradeoffs when it comes to consciously choosing a dating strategy, but we don’t have to get so focused on the tradeoffs that we miss the potential overlaps.

I know this is the case because it’s my life. 

I am not a narcissistic, egomaniac. Far from it. But women find me attractive everywhere I go. It just continually happens. Not 100% of women of course, but more than enough.

Part of the issue I feel is that guys lack sufficient role models in this area. They don’t see many guys who are emotionally healthy but also are generally attractive to women. Or they have a few experiences when they’re younger and extrapolate a whole world view out of it.

Either way it doesn’t represent a full picture of reality. At bare minimum, it doesn’t account for my personal experience.

Edited June 1, 2022 by aurum

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

You yourself say girls are attracted to detached guys that do not care about them. How is removing all empathy and kindness helping you to be a more selfless loving person? To me being good with girls and being a good loving selfless person are opposites.

The only solution to me at least, is to become high value to the point where a girl wont loose attraction for you even if you treat her well and care about her. Yes, if a girl finds you high value you can get away with all sorts of shit (personal experience  ).  Aka social value.

You have to distinguish between the attraction phase vs the relationship phase. Being selfless and loving in a relationship works, as long as you are also a strong man.

[something_else]

9 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Actually i did not want to believe it until reality forced me after countless examples and self denials from my part.

It doesn't matter how you got there. Your belief is currently "I'm too healthy to attract girls" which is absolutely a belief that sooths your ego from rejection.

Ironically, this is an unhealthy mindset

9 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

To me a developed person is empathetic, caring and kind. Can you be attractive even if you dont create drama and treat girls well and with respect?

Of course you can.

Empathy, care, and kindness are deeper traits. They are valuable later in a relationship.

You need other traits that initially attract girls, like a girl's appearance attracts you. Those traits are basically anything that sparks an emotional response in girls. I gave you a good list in my last post.

9 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Issue is most guys i know do these things in a very toxic way. Ghosting a girl randomly to me is toxic. Becoming cold for no reason and creating conflict out of nowhere is also toxic to me. Can you be fun without being toxic like this?

The thing is that it isn't really always that toxic to do those things. Sometimes it absolutely is, but sometimes it's necessary.

The times I've ghosted a girl have been because I haven't felt like talking to her anymore cos the vibe just wasn't there, or she went cold on me first, or something else happened that made me lose interest. Girls do the same

Being willing to walk away is an attractive trait. Doing it intentionally to manipulate is fairly toxic, but sometimes it is authentic and the non-toxic option.

Edited June 1, 2022 by something_else

[Karmadhi]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You have to distinguish between the attraction phase vs the relationship phase. Being selfless and loving in a relationship works, as long as you are also a strong man.

I am always talking about getting a girl to fall for you. Not how to keep a girl in a relationship after she has fallen for you. And i am not talking about pick up kind of attraction which happens within 60 minites as you say it but more generally which includes other venues.

Yes, for relationships being loving and stuff is what works.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

The principles of attraction are all 100% known. Just follow them and you will get girls.

Stop whining and stop making things complicated. Do what works. It's like you guys are looking for reasons to fail. Your mind is your own worst enemy.

The fundamental reason you cannot get girls is because you cannot even walk up to a girl, look her square in the eyes, and hold a normal conversation. Stop blaming spirituality for this or "being a nice guy". You just suck at the fundamentals.

[Karmadhi]

The fact that the most toxic and selfish people get laid the most shows clearly that attraction requires some degree of toxicity and selfishness.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

The fact that the most toxic and selfish people get laid the most shows clearly that attraction requires some degree of toxicity and selfishness.

They get laid the most because instead of sitting on their computer all day doing philosophy, like you, they are out at social venues all week long being social and having fun. Meanwhile you are here mental masturbating and inventing narratives of failure.

Who gets laid are highly social people who aren't stuck in their heads.

[Karmadhi]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

They get laid the most because instead of sitting on their computer all day doing philosophy, like you, they are out at social venues all week long being social and having fun. Meanwhile you are here mental masturbating and inventing narratives of failure.

Last weekend i went out both on friday and saturday. So yeah idk what ur talking about  

[Leo Gura]

28 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Last weekend i went out both on friday and saturday. So yeah idk what ur talking about  

Now do it 1000 times and you will stop complaining about girls.

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

The fact that the most toxic and selfish people get laid the most shows clearly that attraction requires some degree of toxicity and selfishness.

 

The following are not my words but seem relevant here and interesting enough to see what the forums thoughts are on it:

Women most enthusiastically sleep with uncivilised men, but the burdens of relationship and constant presence of woman civilises him. Civilising does not mean elevating, but more so defanging and domesticating. No wonder so many marriages are sexless then.  The more brutish, rough, arrogant, selfish, cruel, risk taking and self-superior he is, the more atavistically attracted she is to him. And all these qualities make for a terrible husband. Strength = survival, and in the mating game women are hardwired to secure strength in a man, in any of its forms be it good or bad. This is why women are bad at picking men - they are specifically drawn to the primal,  raw rather than refined strength. It is their biology reacting, on the level of form. Spiritual love is of another realm and of the formless which is what Leo talks about in his video.

 

Because of this specific attraction to and near exclusive tendency to date the toxic, we hear whining about how terrible men are, despite knowing plenty who are very much good. Women can pick predominantly the worst of men, then besmirch all men.  Men are constantly incentivised to become the very worst they can possibly be, to be shadow possessed and stay shadow possessed so they can enjoy a plethora of pussy - women are literally incentivising and rewarding the very thing they constantly complain about. 

Primarily attracted to dark triad men, sleeping with narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths, criminals and all the rest, to the exclusion of good neurotypical men, and then have the nerve to call men as a group terrible despite their continual preference for deviance and brutality. They did not care those men had those traits when they were seduced by them, they only found them repulsive when they were used to betray them and hurt them. Only then did they have a problem with it. They are drawn to wickedness, but only renounce it once it's done with them.

 

Regular men see this, and it creates a perverse incentive structure in society. They think "how can I become a narcissist?" or "how can I become a psychopath?" or from the red pill today how can I become a alpha jerk - because they see "toxic men" with little regard for morals having so much success with women. Women are malleable, but aren't blind. They tend to be more socially intelligent than most men - and yet they continuously date the very worst men. So can we say the socially and emotionally superior gender's ignorant? No. It is a matter of subconscious preference for primal strength. 

 

Most men would rather become what women want, than be what they believe is right (most likely not men on this forum). Meaning if they see women always sleeping with terrible guys, they will aspire to become terrible in order to sleep with them too. Show him the villains get all the girls, and guess what he wants to be? Men must have a sense "the good guy gets the girl" to inspire heroism. There must be some pretence of this, even if it's not the pure and unmitigated truth, or we cultivate degeneracy amongst our men.

 

Women aren't going to change. They can't even help it. They can't help that they love raw strength and what their bodies respond too. A lot of them don't even realise it. Some do realise it, but are powerless to change it and continue to be drawn to it. Few learn to be disgusted by it and avoid it. It's total chaos

 

This doesn't mean women have no redeeming traits, that they cannot express virtue or anything like that. Because they can and they do. It's more the case that they do not reject evil, it entices and tempts them easily, and they enjoy it. Eve bit the apple first, after all. We see women being drawn to wickedness in men, and then men who aren't wicked aspiring to be it as a biblical echo of sorts. Eve bit the apple first, then encouraged Adam to do so. Women sleep with wicked men, then men become wicked to sleep with her. Same thing.

 

She falls to temptation first (wicked men) and because she is his temptation, he aspires to become what she is tempted by (a wicked man) and thus we have this unholy and unvirtuous feedback loop of sorts. He becomes his temptation's temptation to win the desires of his temptation, but in failing to restrain her, he has lost to her. Because he allowed her (women) to dictate the kind of man he would be, rather than aspire to be the kind of man he believes he should be.

 

Many men today lose in this way, but they all feel like winners. Of course they do. They are sleeping with beautiful women, so why would they think they lost? It would never dawn on them. They wouldn't think they lost their soul. They'd believe they improved and evolved. Sad. There is a kind of dark poetry to the notion that in surrendering his goodness in order to become wicked enough to sleep with women, she in turn surrenders her body to him. It is a perverse kind of reciprocity. 

 

This is the damage free + unlimited female choice has on society, without the oversight of patriarchs to protect daughterly integrity and discriminate against deviant men, deviant men have their pick of the women, and the women's preferences encourage men as a whole to be deviant. So next time you hear a woman complain about her ex boyfriend being a narcissist, a sociopath, an abuser or some such, remember this. She is either wrongfully defaming a good man, or putting herself forward as proof and living testament of everything I have stated here.

Edited June 1, 2022 by zazen

[zazen]

The arousal of biology is raw, savage, amoral, instinctively selecting for reproduction. The attraction of psychology is refined, romantic, moral, intellectually selecting for what ensures the survival of the offspring being reproduced. Mating is the interplay of the two.

The friction is between our instinctive animal nature from where we came, and the intelligent integrated human being we’r continually evolving into. Women default to raw rather than refined strength, as they are more instinctive - hence selecting for the bad boys. 

Evolutionarily strength = survival. Women seek to secure strength in a man for their survival, be it raw (bad) or refined (good). In the absence of the good, they will go for the bad. Their survival / nature pushes them to it primally, over the nice guy absent any strength at all. Good strength pulls them higher. Men should want to embody good strength, and healthy masculinity. 

Our animal evolution and heritage is far longer than our more intellectually adaptive brains. We'v evolved under brawn far longer than brain. Our default is to live instinctually rather than intelligently. Our technological and cultural evolution has outpaced our biological evolution, biology takes far far longer to adapt, so we have to live with the realities of attraction and the affects it has on the dating landscape.

We can hope for, and select for civilised love and meaningful relationships but it doesn't come natural to our animal nature.This is where we should have sympathy for men and women's choices when it comes to dating, compassion arises from understanding.  It is a constant choice, and conscious effort to stay monogamous and select whats good for us long term, and for society when it comes to mating. 

Edited June 1, 2022 by zazen

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Now do it 1000 times and you will stop complaining about girls.

1000 seems like overkill to me. 100-200 should do it (200-400 individual nights out).

 

[raymt]

@Karmadhi

There are a lot of guys who are spiritual who do game in healthy ways. If you want some examples, look into someone like James Marshall from Natural Lifestyles. All of his crew is very spiritual and they have incredible game with hot girls. https://www.youtube.com/c/TheNaturalLifestyles/videos

[Karmadhi]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The fundamental reason you cannot get girls is because you cannot even walk up to a girl, look her square in the eyes, and hold a normal conversation.

If it only was that easy man. The fundamental reason is because they dont see me sexually. Holding a normal conversation does not make a girl want to fuck you. 

I have shared here personal dating experiences and you just called it "bad luck". So it is not that i suck at having normal convos with people. I just get friendzoned a lot even if i make moves, i dont give that player vibe thats my biggest issue. Even when i try to be one it comes off not congruent, like a puppy barking loud trying to act like a pitbull.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Karmadhi