"You're Imagining X" - How broadly can this be applied?

[DrugsBunny]

3 hours ago, Osaid said:

How broadly can it be applied? Anything outside of direct experience must be imagined, because it is outside of your direct experience. It's that simple. If something isn't in your direct experience, then it has to be imagined, and so your direct experience of it is just an imagination of it.

This answer seems to regard present conscious experience as 'real', and everything else as imaginary, as opposed to literally everything being a metaphysical process of intelligent conjuration (imagination) such as Leo asserts. This is the framework I am working from. Would you disagree that the framework Actualized content often asserts is one which states that even your direct experience is imaginary? There seems to be a mix-up of definitions.

2 hours ago, Space said:

@DrugsBunny The simple non frivolous answer here is that you're not going to get a satisfying answer through logical reasoning or thinking. What's being pointed to when someone says 'You're imagining X' is completely beyond logic and thinking!

I am not closed minded to this answer, but please understand that this doesn't necessarily have to be true. I considered preemptively rebutting this anticipated response in my thread but it was already getting a bit lengthy. The concept of metaphysical imaginative creation in itself is not inherently transrational; there may be elements to it which transcend human rationality, but broadly, the concept can be rationally understood as a metaphysical process which gives rise to intelligent creation via the infinite property of consciousness which is presupposed as the fundamental building block of reality. Saying something is imagination, in this context, simply means it is a mental construction, implying that the universe is a mind. Nothing transrational about that so far... It is thus conceivable to describe the process more thoroughly in a way that conforms to a sort of logical structure. 

9 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

So which you and what type of imagination is the phrase referring to? The whole phrase is too confusing and open to abuse. You can call existence itself imagination, but that doesn't add anything new, because "you" are not in control of it.

In the original post, I believe it is pretty clearly stated that I am referring to metaphysical imaginative creation, which is obviously not localized imagination, nor would there even be any point in referring to this, as there is no confusion what that sort of imagination is... Everyone already knows how that works.  

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by DrugsBunny

[DrugsBunny]

7 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@DrugsBunny A stage BLUE backlash wearing a "turquoise" content. This is what is happening here with this rigid, unflexible, fearfull, deffensive, highly emotional solipsism trend.

I imagine it's difficult for you to conjure a sensible response to my inquiry with the taste of Leo's ejaculate so thoroughly ingrained into memory, so perhaps I should excuse this pompous drivel you've posted. 

No idea what I've said to upset you here, but the supreme lack of self awareness with the adjectives you've ascribed is pretty impressive. Do you always resort to this flimsy color model to assign unflattering roles to other people? ???

[RMQualtrough]

3 minutes ago, DrugsBunny said:

In the original post, I believe it is pretty clearly stated that I am referring to metaphysical imaginative creation, which is obviously not localized imagination, nor would there even be any point in referring to this, as there is no confusion what that sort of imagination is... Everyone already knows how that works.  

See this bro:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6maAy9ZwtJc

The type of conjuring you might be implying would rely on free will, as opposed to spontaneous out of control creation like that.

[LastThursday]

27 minutes ago, DrugsBunny said:

In the original post, I believe it is pretty clearly stated that I am referring to metaphysical imaginative creation, which is obviously not localized imagination, nor would there even be any point in referring to this, as there is no confusion what that sort of imagination is

I would argue about your use of the word: clearly. Anyway, it's clearer now.

28 minutes ago, DrugsBunny said:

Everyone already knows how that works.

And yet here is confusion:

29 minutes ago, Michael Jackson said:

You ARE imagining your OCD. And yes, you could actually stop imagining that since you are God.

Localised imagination is being used here as a proxy to what is meant by God's (metaphysical) imagination. Your point @DrugsBunny is can metaphysical (God's) imagination even be called imagination? Yes, but not in any way in the same sense as localised imagination. 

Metaphysical (God's) imagination, would have to be of a special kind, not one that involves thought or desire or potentiality. It's more one that is spontaneously creative with aspects of both novelty and consistency and persistence. This kind of imagination unfolds rather than being planned: rather like zooming into a fractal pattern. There is consistency in the "look and feel" of the fractal as you zoom in, but it's constantly changing.

Yes, God could stop your OCD but s/he's not going to. It's not the way God works.

[Michael Jackson]

2 hours ago, LastThursday said:

Localised imagination is being used here as a proxy to what is meant by God's (metaphysical) imagination. Your point @DrugsBunny is can metaphysical (God's) imagination even be called imagination? Yes, but not in any way in the same sense as localised imagination. 

Actually, imagination is quite an accurate word. The world is completely imaginary. The same way you are imagining your dreams at night. No need to overcomplicate things here.

Metaphysical (God's) imagination, would have to be of a special kind, not one that involves thought or desire or potentiality. It's more one that is spontaneously creative with aspects of both novelty and consistency and persistence. This kind of imagination unfolds rather than being planned: rather like zooming into a fractal pattern. There is consistency in the "look and feel" of the fractal as you zoom in, but it's constantly changing.

Gods imagination is not of a "special kind", it is in fact the only form of imagination that truly exists. All other forms of imagination are imaginary:) Also, it involves desire very much. God desires his creation. Thats why he creates it. He in fact loves it.

Yes, God could stop your OCD but s/he's not going to. It's not the way God works.

That is wrong. Your OCD won't last forever. When it stops, only God stopped it. This is exactly how God works. God does exactly what he wants and he does it perfectly. When your wishes do not align with reality as it is, think twice: You are God, therefore you create reality right now. If you truly didn't desire your OCD, it wouldn't exist.

@LastThursday

[LastThursday]

16 minutes ago, Michael Jackson said:

The world is completely imaginary.

Says who? Where did you get this idea come from? What use is this idea?

17 minutes ago, Michael Jackson said:

Also, it involves desire very much. God desires his creation. Thats why he creates it.

Ok. But we're not living in chaos. Stuff exists and persists. God doesn't change its mind on a whim, there's orderliness to everything. Someone's OCD doesn't disappear because God gets up one day and decides it to be gone. The OCD goes because you and the world evolves and changes in an orderly way. 

God is like a river: you are like a pebble in the river, thinking its the river. The river's imagination is not the pebble's imagination.

 

[Nivsch]

42 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

Says who? Where did you get this idea come from? What use is this idea?

Ok. But we're not living in chaos. Stuff exists and persists. God doesn't change its mind on a whim, there's orderliness to everything. Someone's OCD doesn't disappear because God gets up one day and decides it to be gone. The OCD goes because you and the world evolves and changes in an orderly way. 

God is like a river: you are like a pebble in the river, thinking its the river. The river's imagination is not the pebble's imagination.

 

+1 ❤

Edited March 29, 2022 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

5 hours ago, LastThursday said:

If I get hit by car, there's no way I'm imagining the bodily damage and hospitalisation that follows: it exists.

?

This is absurd.

[Michael Jackson]

45 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

Says who? Where did you get this idea come from? What use is this idea?

@LastThursday I say that. This "idea" is in fact an observable truth. In case you're interested to observe this yourself I'd recommend psychedelics.

47 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

Someone's OCD doesn't disappear because God gets up one day and decides it to be gone. The OCD goes because you and the world evolves and changes in an orderly way. 

God never changes his mind. He is infinitely intelligent, which leaves no room for mistakes. But God creates new things every moment. And everything that happens in reality happens because of God. When your OCD disappears, only God made it disappear. The story you are currently telling ("the world is evolving, that's the reason my OCD is gone") is in fact one of Gods stories / imaginations. He (you) uses this story, to delude himself into feeling like he is a limited human being, a leaf in the wind.

 

50 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

God is like a river: you are like a pebble in the river, thinking its the river. The river's imagination is not the pebble's imagination.

I think you are overlooking something here... The only thing that exists is the river (which you are). There are no people. "People" is an idea that the river imagines.
 

9 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

?

This is absurd.

@Nivsch

No, it is not absurd, it is in fact exactly what happens. You are God, dreaming that you are a limited human creature. Anything that ever happens to you is imagined by you, including getting hit by a car, going to the hospital, etc.

Is it really so hard to understand? You have direct experience of this when you dream at night:)

[Osaid]

7 hours ago, DrugsBunny said:

This answer seems to regard present conscious experience as 'real', and everything else as imaginary, as opposed to literally everything being a metaphysical process of intelligent conjuration (imagination) such as Leo asserts. This is the framework I am working from. Would you disagree that the framework Actualized content often asserts is one which states that even your direct experience is imaginary? There seems to be a mix-up of definitions.

I wouldn't say "real", just separate from imagination. One thing can't be less real than another thing.

It does seem to me that Leo may have a different definition of imagination. I do recall him saying things like "everything is imagination" or "physical objects are just a stronger version of imagination", or something along those lines. 

To me, imagination is just all of your mental conjurations and projections. That's how I am personally defining it. I can even see how physicality can be imagined to an extent, but I do not consider physical qualia to be imagination. "Imagination" is a relative distinction I make to convey ideas properly. Similar to how I distinguish a lamp from a table in order to function and survive properly.

So no, I don't entirely disagree. Maybe because I myself am misunderstanding something, or that Leo's definition is just different. Leo's definition might be a very non-dual one, which encapsulates most of reality. Similar to how one might say all of reality is "Love" or all of reality is just "Infinite Intelligence." Leo says "all of reality is imagination". 

 

 

[LastThursday]

15 hours ago, Michael Jackson said:

In case you're interested to observe this yourself I'd recommend psychedelics.

Truth is only available via psychedelics? Really?

15 hours ago, Michael Jackson said:

He (you) uses this story, to delude himself into feeling like he is a limited human being, a leaf in the wind.

Which, of course, is another story, told by you, what a good imagination you have.

 

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, LastThursday said:

Truth is only available via psychedelics? Really?

Psychedelic bypassing at moments you need to do shadow work.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Nivsch

[Michael Jackson]

4 hours ago, LastThursday said:

Truth is only available via psychedelics? Really?

@LastThursday That's not what is being said. Psychedelics are simply a good tool for accessing truth. But apperently you are not interested in truth anyways..

4 hours ago, LastThursday said:

Which, of course, is another story, told by you, what a good imagination you have.

Obviously:)

[LastThursday]

3 hours ago, Michael Jackson said:

But apperently you are not interested in truth anyways..

I'm interested in not being deluded - which is a form of truth.

[Nivsch]

On 29.3.2022 at 7:40 PM, Michael Jackson said:

@Nivsch

No, it is not absurd, it is in fact exactly what happens. You are God, dreaming that you are a limited human creature. Anything that ever happens to you is imagined by you, including getting hit by a car, going to the hospital, etc.

Is it really so hard to understand? You have direct experience of this when you dream at night:)

How have you discovered that? 

[Michael Jackson]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

How have you discovered that? 

@Nivsch Through direct experience. Realizing this is a question of Self-Recognition, like recognizing yourself in the mirror.

[Nivsch]

11 hours ago, Michael Jackson said:

@Nivsch Through direct experience. Realizing this is a question of Self-Recognition, like recognizing yourself in the mirror.

Ok but MY direct experience showing me exactly the opposite, and I have never had an intuition and not even a clue to this kind of thing (that I am "alone") so I trust my intuition.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Nivsch

[Michael Jackson]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Ok but MY direct experience showing me exactly the opposite, and I have never had an intuition and not even a clue to this kind of thing (that I am "alone") so I trust my intuition.

@Nivsch That's completely fine, as long as you are happy with yourself:)

[aetheroar]

On 3/28/2022 at 11:08 PM, DrugsBunny said:

I genuinely want this explained as if I were an autistic 5 year old. Explain why I should even lend merit to you. If it isn't clear, I tend to see the majority of this forum as hapless followers, so I am really just trying to appeal only to the brainy scientific crowd here, which my saying will undoubtedly evoke the appeal of the exact opposite, so I have little hope of an effective answer, but maybe somebody will surprise me.

1) inspect what you would define as imaginary.

2) inspect what you would define as real.

*Stop here if you are truly interested in Knowing, read on if you want more ideas to think about *

3) realize that neither of these definitions would apply to a 5 year old autistic child because they would be immersed into the space you pulled the questions out of.

4) realize that if there was an answer to a conceptual question, that answer is only able to compare it to something else, and can not possibly shine light on the truth for you.

5) the appearance of imagination is real. The appearance of present reality includes imagination. The truth includes all appearances before the questions or conceptualizations arise.

6) because nothing adds up to everything, and everything adds up to nothing, there’s no actual basis in dirext experience for the question/answer system. It’s just comparing one appearance to another appearance.

7) The Universe is like a timeless mystical vision, a mirage made of self-luminous nothingness, singularly projected as the Spirit of God. Spirit appears as something that is not quite explainable, that is immeasurable beyond relation to itself, such as temperature, density, form, movement, color, sound, and brightness. These Spirit qualities interweave at infinitely complex levels, shapeshifting, forming and balancing each other on the stage of emptiness. These qualities all know themselves directly, there is no such awareness beyond the sensations as they arise. Ultimately they add up to nothingness, and must maintain the appearance of movement/change to be seen as anything at all.

8) The actual meaning of it all is to bask in the mystique, but even that is meaningless. You can do literally anything you want. As God is like infinite being, fully complete being manifests in fully complete forms forever. Every form is the knowledge of itself and there’s no logical explanation for it, it’s pure Miracle.

9) There is no cause of anything.

Edited April 2, 2022 by aetheroar

[SOUL]

@DrugsBunny  People who are magical minded, whether it be the new age mystic or the religious adherent, takes what is a kernel of fact and exaggerates it to the extreme degree then declares their exaggerated belief is the truth because the kernel is.

Don't let their exaggerated belief disturb your peace.